SSJ multipliers change!?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 935
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:53 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:20 pm
No. Nothing was ever stated or implied. It would also make no sense, why would transformations become less effective? based on what? since when?

I assume the theories exist because people try to fit the sometimes-confusing show with their own interpretation of the events.
My thoughts exactly

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:26 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:36 pm
I know that was a popular thing but that's absolutely not how it works, I think Vados even says possible formula of like A + B X 10's. Even then don't love that because I think it's near impossible to assign a formula
I think her line is one of many things not meant to take literally. She said basically the same thing Gogeta said in Dragon Ball Super Broly. Rather than addition, the power grew exponentially of some sorts. It's kinda vague, but since I take SEG information, that vagueness is clear to me.
KBABZ wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:04 pm
I think Toriyama meant from a standing point, so to speak. Obviously going SS2 will provide a much quicker boost, but as shown in the Cell arc, perfecting Super Saiyan as a completely unstressful multiplier and working with your first transformation from there proved to be the wiser choice over chasing the SS2 dream. It made for a solid starting point from which Gohan could then pull SS2 out when the time came.

Personally, I think in terms of body stress and energy usage, SS2 was as stressful on Gohan's body and SS1 was on Goku's body when he first did it. If Gohan hadn't mastered SS1, then going to SS2 would have been equivalent to when Goku went SS3 (not to mention the sheer personality change).
Fair point. But nowadays that doesn't apply anymore. Which makes his statement very nonsensical. Maybe it's not possible to do the mastering with Super Saiyan 2 too, but probably because they are stronger now and know how to control their power better, that stress doesn't exist anymore.

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:19 am

IMHO, the only actual concrete multiplier that exists is for the Kaio-ken. Every SSJ transformation probably varies at least a little bit from Saiyan to Saiyan, pulling out a similarly large degree of latent potential based on an individual Saiyan's genetics & growth.
One of the main reasons why fans believe in a static multiplier is to configure their own Post-Trunks power level lists by simplifying the forms to a strict numerical definition. The story, however, doesn't address the forms quite like this. Every time a SSJ is depicted, they're generally described as just being "strong" with no one making a comparison that has to do with an exact multiplier; they merely note the differences in power based on how far whatever form of SSJ takes a Saiyan.
As to the concept of a SSJ form decreasing in power, I really don't know if that exists. Gohan was once described by Vegeta as being less powerful as a teenager than when he was a child regarding SSJ2 but Gohan's power is often defined by how angry he is. More than likely, Gohan was stronger as a teenager but because he lacked anger against Kibito, he lacked intensity and so he seemed weaker.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:10 am

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:26 am
I think her line is one of many things not meant to take literally. She said basically the same thing Gogeta said in Dragon Ball Super Broly. Rather than addition, the power grew exponentially of some sorts. It's kinda vague, but since I take SEG information, that vagueness is clear to me.
You could make a drinking game out of the number of times a character uses the word "exponential" in relation to Power Levels.

v v v DBZ Reddit-type stuff below v v v
Grimlock wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:26 am
Fair point. But nowadays that doesn't apply anymore. Which makes his statement very nonsensical. Maybe it's not possible to do the mastering with Super Saiyan 2 too, but probably because they are stronger now and know how to control their power better, that stress doesn't exist anymore.
Remember that he made that statement WAY back in the mid-90s, way before all this business with God Ki. I think the way Super handles it makes sense: the God Ki forms (SSG and SSB) are known to be calm transformations, so you don't really expend energy through stress like the "blonde" Super Saiyan forms.

That being said though, I still think what Toriyama says is true. Often the characters aren't ready to jump to the next form until they're mastered the previous one: Vegeta and Trunks tried this and got the bulky Ascended Super Saiyan for their troubles, but Gohan holding Super Saiyan as a completely natural state was just the thing needed to make the jump to SS2. RoF also has this with Frieza's failings with his Golden form. Walk before you can run still applies in a 900 trillion battle power context!

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 935
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:22 am

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:26 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:36 pm
I know that was a popular thing but that's absolutely not how it works, I think Vados even says possible formula of like A + B X 10's. Even then don't love that because I think it's near impossible to assign a formula
I think her line is one of many things not meant to take literally. She said basically the same thing Gogeta said in Dragon Ball Super Broly. Rather than addition, the power grew exponentially of some sorts. It's kinda vague, but since I take SEG information, that vagueness is clear to me.
Fair enough but I just see AXB as to large. Like SSBKKX20 Goku hurt Zamasu with a kick, VegetaXGoku would be a lot more than 20X SSB Goku. Not saying SSB Vegito is SSBKK level, he is a lot stronger just comparing. Secondly Vegito's base and Gogeta's base seemed to be SSB level, and I doubt GokuXVegeta would equal that

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:01 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:10 am
You could make a drinking game out of the number of times a character uses the word "exponential" in relation to Power Levels.

v v v DBZ Reddit-type stuff below v v v
Ha, you are right. I just realize how much I don't give too much thought on this aspect, I just take a basic idea and go with it. But if I'm to guess, I'd say: "linear growth = addition" and "exponential growth = multiplication". I mean, fused characters would be weaker if it was just their battle power level added up, right? Makes sense to me.
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:10 am
Remember that he made that statement WAY back in the mid-90s, way before all this business with God Ki. I think the way Super handles it makes sense: the God Ki forms (SSG and SSB) are known to be calm transformations, so you don't really expend energy through stress like the "blonde" Super Saiyan forms.
I'm referring to this 2014 statement actually. If Toriyama ever said something similar way back then, I wouldn't even know.

I was speaking as if none of this god stuff existed, though. But now that they exist, I'd rearrange my arguments and say that stacking the power of Super Sayan God into Super Saiyan 2 (also known as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2) would probably be the best when it comes to use their "full" potential (still disregarding crap Super Saiyan 3). Like you said, these are calm forms and I strongly believe the comsuption of energy wouldn't be so bad (except for Toei anyway :lol:). Unless any sign of comsuption is to be taken as a hindrance, that is.
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:22 am
Fair enough but I just see AXB as to large.
How so?

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:17 pm

I never suscribed to fusion multipliers, mainly because it is hard for me to believe that Toriyama (or even TOEI for the movies and GT) sat down with a calculator doing multiplications in order to know just how strong the fusion had to be. The show isn't really that mathematically accurate to being with.

Actually, I think those multipliers probably have little thought put into them by the guides. I should also add that they were published back then when fusion had no natural predator and was by far the top dog(Omega, Buuhan, Janemba, they all went down easy) and with a hint of their power they could dominate any fight.
Now we have Beerus, Zamasu, Vegito, Omen Goku, Jiren, even Broly, to put a "roof" on some fusions. Heroes has Cumber. BoG even had SSG surpassing potara fusion, so I don't think the show actually follows a scientific formula when it comes to fusion. Probably the fusion's PL "starts" where the fusee's PL peaked, which narratively speaking sounds the most convenient IMO.

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 935
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:54 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:01 pm
KBABZ wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:10 am
You could make a drinking game out of the number of times a character uses the word "exponential" in relation to Power Levels.
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:22 am
Fair enough but I just see AXB as to large.
How so?
it's just I don't see that anything in the series supports that type of boost. I don't know exactly but it just never seems like the most logistical formula, especially due to Gogeta's showing in the Broly movie

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 935
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:55 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:17 pm
Probably the fusion's PL "starts" where the fusee's PL peaked, which narratively speaking sounds the most convenient IMO.
100% agree

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7804
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:52 am

I'd argue for a change in multipliers for the supposed "Grade 4" of Goku and Gohan prior to the Cell Games and for the "Saiyan Beyond God" of Goku and Vegeta post Battle of Gods, in the first case the gap between base and Super Ssiyan increasing massively and in the second case that same gap decreasing massively.

With Ultimate Gohan a special case, having all his power drawn out without transforming, because that is bad according to Elder Kaioshin.

As implied by Toriyama's statements in regards to SS2 and SS3, Gohan's Ultimate state and Elder Kaioshin's statement and Toriyama's statement about Goku and Vegeta's godly power in RoF, it should be possible and the end goal to gain all that power in base and power up without transforming at all, but from an out of universe perspective, I wonder if we'll ever get there thanks to the iconography of Saiyans always transforming.
At least Gohan hasn't been a Super Saiyan since just before the ToP.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3766
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:56 am

I think there is one instance in the fight between Cabba and Vegeta that might imply Super Saiyan doesn’t increase equally all the fighting abilities. Vegeta pointed that as a normal Saiyan their performance was similar, but he wondered how it will play out when both fight as Super Saiyans. It seems Vegeta had quite an advantage still.

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 861
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:02 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:56 am
I think there is one instance in the fight between Cabba and Vegeta that might imply Super Saiyan doesn’t increase equally all the fighting abilities. Vegeta pointed that as a normal Saiyan their performance was similar, but he wondered how it will play out when both fight as Super Saiyans. It seems Vegeta had quite an advantage still.
Because Ki Efficiency.

Aka the WHOLE POINT of the Grade-4 transformation: while the basic multiplier of Ki might be the same, a greater mastery of the form lets the user to achieve greater efficiency and effectiveness.

Their base-stats were similar enough, same for their fighting skills, so Vegeta wanted to see how good Cabba was at transforming.

User avatar
Saturnine
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 am

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:09 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:02 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:56 am
I think there is one instance in the fight between Cabba and Vegeta that might imply Super Saiyan doesn’t increase equally all the fighting abilities. Vegeta pointed that as a normal Saiyan their performance was similar, but he wondered how it will play out when both fight as Super Saiyans. It seems Vegeta had quite an advantage still.
Because Ki Efficiency.

Aka the WHOLE POINT of the Grade-4 transformation: while the basic multiplier of Ki might be the same, a greater mastery of the form lets the user to achieve greater efficiency and effectiveness.

Their base-stats were similar enough, same for their fighting skills, so Vegeta wanted to see how good Cabba was at transforming.
Efficiency is such a vague term. What matters in DB fights is battle power, first and foremost. If Grade 4 doesn't give you more power, the benefit of not wasting stamina in and of itself is not that big a deal.

ankokudaishogun
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 861
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:45 pm

Saturnine wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:09 pm
Efficiency is such a vague term. What matters in DB fights is battle power, first and foremost. If Grade 4 doesn't give you more power, the benefit of not wasting stamina in and of itself is not that big a deal.
tell that to Toriyama and Toyotaro. In the end, it's the same concept behind Complete Blue.
Greater efficiency means being able to use full power longer, or even being able to bring out more power for the same cost.

User avatar
TobyS
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1730
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by TobyS » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:17 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 am
No. Multipliers don't change.

• Oozaru will always increase base power level by 10 times.
• Super Saiyan will always increase base power level by 50 times.
• Super Saiyan 2 will always increase base power level by 100 times.
• Super Saiyan 3 will always increase base power level by 400 times.
• Metamoru and Potara fusions will always multiply base power level of one fusee by the other one.

This method is interesting because it all comes down to the power level of the base form at the end of the day. Allowing the characters to keep evolving to the point that, for example, while Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza in Freeza saga, a Cell saga or Majin Buu saga Goku certainly does not, which also gives you the feeling of progression in a way.
Not quite.
Fusion is "more like multiplication that addition" but is not straight up BP1xBP2. that'd be too big.
We just know it's at least around 400x
Also Goku is still weaker than Freeza in base up until BoG we don't know when he surpasses him in base, perhaps Moro.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6688
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 pm

TobyS wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:17 pm
Fusion is "more like multiplication that addition" but is not straight up BP1xBP2. that'd be too big.
I fail to see how "too big" is a hindrance.
TobyS wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:17 pm
Also Goku is still weaker than Freeza in base up until BoG
Hardly.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:44 pm

Power level makers often use multipliers for coherence's sake, but outside of that I doubt anybody really cares.
Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Cursed Lemon
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1168
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Location, Location
Contact:

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:04 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:14 pm
Why should the transformation’s multipliers be so rigid?
Some people care about, y'know, coherence.

EDIT: ^ Yeah what that guy said
Special Beam Cannon!

(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃

User avatar
Yuli Ban
Regular
Posts: 576
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:39 pm

I feel people put WAY too much stock in these rigid multipliers to the point I feel a lot of power level/multiplier arguments could be spun as "the Freeza Force trying to understand Super Saiyan."

Especially when the series itself goes out of its way to mock excessive focus on numbers and static power level readings. You'd think at some point it would be obvious that this stuff about Super Saiyan being 50x stronger than base form is more like a general guideline to understanding ki output and strength increases rather than a "Super Saiyan Goku is 50x stronger than base Goku; Super Saiyan 2 Goku is 100x stronger; and so on, and never shall there be nuance, changes, overclocking, or enhancements unrelated to a later transformation."

Just going by pure context, it's obvious that Super Saiyan is more like a resetting of one's base. Super Saiyan Goku starts out 50x stronger than base Goku, that's true. But he isn't locked to it at all times. He can absolutely increase or decrease his ki output... just like he can in base form. What's more, he can train himself in this form particularly to maximize the power he can get out of it. So at any resting moment he may be 50x above what he usually is, but during a fight, he might be loads of times above even that— especially if he can reinforce his ki in extremely short bursts. It's not about the raw power but how he uses it.

Similar with other forms. Super Saiyan 3 grants the user 4x more power than Super Saiyan 1 to play with, almost like upgrading a computer. Almost. But that doesn't mean Super Saiyan 1 couldn't reach Super Saiyan 3 levels of power if Goku were willing to destroy his body to get there, or that Super Saiyan 3 couldn't be suppressed to Goku's base level of ki. There isn't much reason to do so in a fight where Super Saiyan 3 is necessary, but that's not the point.

If Goku trains himself to use the ki present in Super Saiyan 3 more effectively, he can draw even more power out of it as well, so the "400x multiplier" becomes vague and loose. You know where the form stands, but not the exact power.

The fact that we've heard statements that base Goku isn't even stronger than Freeza (though admittedly only in the 2008 special) suggests this even more. Finally, we never even got multipliers for other transformations besides Super Saiyan. Kaioken isn't a transformation and the multiplier is baked into the technique itself, so it barely counts. We never learned how strong "fusion" is supposed to be, especially considering the different kinds of fusion in the series. Cell's transformations don't seem to follow any set multiplier. Maybe multiples of ten? Who knows!
It's only Super Saiyan this was ever explained for, and even then I just have that feeling fans misunderstood what the multipliers represent.


Not to mention that these multipliers feel like they might be dated. If a new Daizenshuu series came out today, I can only wonder what they'd write about transformations.
LITTLE MISS SAVAGE
A story about a Saiyanlike barbarian girl living on Earth (our Earth) and the surreal drama this causes

BWri
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1070
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by BWri » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:39 am

I always got the sense that the multipliers were smaller in Super. At any rate, I don't think they are the same as those listed in the Daizenshuu. Toriyama-san has his own multipliers which we aren't privy to,
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

Post Reply