The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Koitsukai
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:35 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:59 am
Team fight:

Merus, Master Roshi, Son Goten, Trunks, Jaco, Android #17, Chaozu, Tarble, Broly.

vs.

Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, Piccolo, Eighteen, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Majin Boo.


Current manga versions of everyone - the kids can fuse into Gotenks if it’s a stomp.
It's really a stomp from the second team. Actually, Goku or Vegeta could do it on their own, they could take all of them without any help.

It could be an interesting fight if you remove Goku and Vegeta, though.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:26 pm

In Brightest Day wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:59 am
Team fight:

Merus, Master Roshi, Son Goten, Trunks, Jaco, Android #17, Chaozu, Tarble, Broly.

vs.

Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, Piccolo, Eighteen, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Majin Boo.


Current manga versions of everyone - the kids can fuse into Gotenks if it’s a stomp.
We don't know how strong Merus is. If we assume he keeps the same strength and skills, then he should win this by himself.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:07 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:55 am
Suppressed Jiren vs. Corrupted Fused Zamasu


An old match-up but a good one. Can Jiren successfully destroy Fused Zamasu's body until there's nothing left (something that a serious SSB Vegito failed to do), or is he forced to power-up/get serious in order to defeat him (in this case he loses as he's no longer Suppressed)?
His supressed state felt, according to Shin, different from anyone they've ever faced before, that should include Zamasu's corrupted form. So, yeah, he should be able to wipe out Zamasu, even if he comes right back from it. He shouldn't need to power up, he can deflect a SSBKKx20 genki dama with his glare and take Sign Goku with that power.
He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:07 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:55 am
Suppressed Jiren vs. Corrupted Fused Zamasu


An old match-up but a good one. Can Jiren successfully destroy Fused Zamasu's body until there's nothing left (something that a serious SSB Vegito failed to do), or is he forced to power-up/get serious in order to defeat him (in this case he loses as he's no longer Suppressed)?
His supressed state felt, according to Shin, different from anyone they've ever faced before, that should include Zamasu's corrupted form. So, yeah, he should be able to wipe out Zamasu, even if he comes right back from it. He shouldn't need to power up, he can deflect a SSBKKx20 genki dama with his glare and take Sign Goku with that power.
He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:
He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:07 pm


His supressed state felt, according to Shin, different from anyone they've ever faced before, that should include Zamasu's corrupted form. So, yeah, he should be able to wipe out Zamasu, even if he comes right back from it. He shouldn't need to power up, he can deflect a SSBKKx20 genki dama with his glare and take Sign Goku with that power.
He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:
He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.
But he didn't say "he's the strongest, plain and simple", what you're doing is interpreting Shin's statement but that statement alone is not conclusive evidence.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:19 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am


He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:
He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.
But he didn't say "he's the strongest, plain and simple", what you're doing is interpreting Shin's statement but that statement alone is not conclusive evidence.
No, I'm not interpreting anything that isn't there. Shin used a common figure of speech.

And to dismiss that, which would be Shin's point if you analyze his full statement and not just a part of it, you are assuming Jiren has some new other type of energy, one that was never talked about or shown before or after, or even implied to have, not in the anime or in the manga, or in any additional material or media including videogames.
So, to follow up on your argument, we'd need to know what type of DIFFERENT energy you are saying Jiren has. It isn't god ki because everybody could feel it, it isn't hakai energy, it's not regular ki even though everybody can feel it? ok, what is it then? If your argument is correct, we should have an answer to this already. If not, then Shin was talking about how strong Jiren was, different than anything felt before, using a common figure of speech.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:19 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am


He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.
But he didn't say "he's the strongest, plain and simple", what you're doing is interpreting Shin's statement but that statement alone is not conclusive evidence.
No, I'm not interpreting anything that isn't there. Shin used a common figure of speech.
That's where you're interpreting it though :think: While my interpretation would also be completely valid, in which Shin wasn't necessarily saying that Jiren is stronger than everyone else, just that his energy felt different as he as a fighter relies solely on brute strength (while Hit and Zamasu also had several Ki-focused techniques/hax, Jiren only relies on brute strength, so his energy and fighting style would indeed be very different compared to everyone else). Fans were also quick to notice how Jiren, unlike every other antagonist, was completely focused only on brute strength, sure he had some generic ki blasts that he threw around but 99% of his fighting style was based around brute strength.
you are assuming Jiren has some new other type of energy, one that was never talked about or shown before or after, or even implied to have, not in the anime or in the manga, or in any additional material or media including videogames.
Why would that be the case? Him saying that Jiren felt different wouldn't really introduce anything new, in fact even in the previous arc it was reminded by Whis that everyone has slightly different energies. Even Present Zamasu had a different energy/power compared to Black, even though they were the same person.

Do you have any other argument (aside from this extremely ambiguous/inconclusive statement from Shin, who also thought Fused Zamasu was way above the Gods of Destruction) to argue in favour of Jiren? Maybe how he would be able to cut Zamasu in half/destroy him using the abilities he has and without going Full Power ala ep. 130?

For example, one of the most interesting elements of this debate is how Jiren would replicate the feat of destroying Zamasu's body. Would he simply try to punch him really hard like Vegito did (although that ultimately failed to destroy him)? Since he doesn't have a sword-based technique that he can use to slice Zamasu in half.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:51 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:46 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:19 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am


But he didn't say "he's the strongest, plain and simple", what you're doing is interpreting Shin's statement but that statement alone is not conclusive evidence.
No, I'm not interpreting anything that isn't there. Shin used a common figure of speech.
That's where you're interpreting it though :think: While my interpretation would also be completely valid, in which Shin wasn't necessarily saying that Jiren is stronger than everyone else, just that his energy felt different as he as a fighter relies solely on brute strength (while Hit and Zamasu also had several Ki-focused techniques/hax, Jiren only relies on brute strength, so his energy and fighting style would indeed be very different compared to everyone else). Fans were also quick to notice how Jiren, unlike every other antagonist, was completely focused only on brute strength, sure he had some generic ki blasts that he threw around but 99% of his fighting style was based around brute strength.
you are assuming Jiren has some new other type of energy, one that was never talked about or shown before or after, or even implied to have, not in the anime or in the manga, or in any additional material or media including videogames.
Why would that be the case? Him saying that Jiren felt different wouldn't really introduce anything new, in fact even in the previous arc it was reminded by Whis that everyone has slightly different energies. Even Present Zamasu had a different energy/power compared to Black, even though they were the same person.

Do you have any other argument (aside from this extremely ambiguous/inconclusive statement from Shin, who also thought Fused Zamasu was way above the Gods of Destruction) to argue in favour of Jiren? Maybe how he would be able to cut Zamasu in half/destroy him using the abilities he has and without going Full Power ala ep. 130?

For example, one of the most interesting elements of this debate is how Jiren would replicate the feat of destroying Zamasu's body. Would he simply try to punch him really hard like Vegito did (although that ultimately failed to destroy him)? Since he doesn't have a sword-based technique that he can use to slice Zamasu in half.
Sorry but this is the first time I hear that the fighting style determines the type of energy. Zamasu only had a weird one because of being one soul in another person's body, mixing his corrupted god ki and normal ki. That's not enough to believe Jiren has some different type of ki, specially if based on his fighting style, which is not just raw strenght, he is an expert too and has extreme control over his power.
For your argument to work, Jiren would effectively need to have a different type of ki (like Broly had, for instance), and Shin would have to be in awe because of it, but he was clearly in awe of his strenght, that much can we agree on? that Shin was impressed by this STRENGHT and not the TYPE of ki or his fighting style that he had not shown yet??

Anyway, the attack he used to ring out Hit, only at full power of his suppressed form would be the way to destroy someone. Or the attack he tried on Vegeta, or the attack that got everybody confused and got Vegeta to fight Toppo. Jiren has many "ultimate" ki attacks to go for the kill. That ki punch that scared the blue out of Goku I don't think it would've worked, though.
In SDBH he uses an attack similar to the one UI Goku flicked away, he could try that one as well.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:30 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:07 pm


His supressed state felt, according to Shin, different from anyone they've ever faced before, that should include Zamasu's corrupted form. So, yeah, he should be able to wipe out Zamasu, even if he comes right back from it. He shouldn't need to power up, he can deflect a SSBKKx20 genki dama with his glare and take Sign Goku with that power.
He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:
He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.
As I see it, Shin is talking about how Jiren's ki feels. It's attributes or whatever.

Some ki's feel different from others like Moro or Cell's. The way I see it, Shin is saying Jiren's ki feels simple.

If Shin really meant Jiren was the strongest he has ever felt then he should have just said it like Vegeta did on episode 122.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:30 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:30 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:11 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:48 am


He said his power felt different though, not greater :think:
He literally followed that up with "he is just strong, plain and simple", meaning he was just using a figure of speech to comment on the greatest power he ever felt.
As I see it, Shin is talking about how Jiren's ki feels. It's attributes or whatever.

Some ki's feel different from others like Moro or Cell's. The way I see it, Shin is saying Jiren's ki feels simple.

If Shin really meant Jiren was the strongest he has ever felt then he should have just said it like Vegeta did on episode 122.
Cell and Moro's feel different because of how evil they are and how many souls they had taken and scream in agony along their ki, Jiren has nothing like that going on for him. There's nothing particular in Jiren's ki besides being a lot of it.

DBS in particular isn't as nuanced. The context is clear, they are talking about Goku's enemy, what would be the point of talking about how his ki feels, when they are talking about how strong he is? He had just deflected a genkidama by staring at it, that's what prompted their comments.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:33 pm

something fun to ponder:
Elder Kaioshin vs. Gowasu
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:38 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:33 pm
something fun to ponder:
Elder Kaioshin vs. Gowasu
Elder Kaioshin pretty much lost to Base Boo arc Goku.

Gowasu kills him in a second.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:13 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:33 pm
something fun to ponder:
Elder Kaioshin vs. Gowasu
We have no way to know how powerful Gowasu is. An untransformed Goku Black easily left him at death's door though Gowasu was still intent on trying to reason with him at the time.

Having said that, I do believe Gowasu is more powerful simply by virtue of his still serving as acting Kaioshin. Elder Kaioshin was unable to even react properly to a ki projectile from base Goku in the Buu arc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:26 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:33 pm
something fun to ponder:
Elder Kaioshin vs. Gowasu
We don't have much to go by regarding Ro Kaioshin, actually we've seen more of Gowasu, who doesn't seem to be a fighter either.

I guess Ro Kaioshin has the edge because of being fused with a witch. Even if the power up is minimum, he might have some trick up his sleeve. I can't remember if the witch that fused with him was supposed to be a POWERFUL witch, maybe I misremembering and thinking of that Hoi fella from the Tapion movie.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:20 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:33 pm
something fun to ponder:
Elder Kaioshin vs. Gowasu
Betting on Gowasu here. Old Kaioshin is merged with an old witch, and witches aren't exactly that strong physically.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:46 pm

Okay, I'll attempt to provide some more versus matches.

Goku (post Vegeta fight; has a maintainable Kaioken x3), Vegeta (fully rested with Recoome fight strength), Gohan (Ginyu-Goku fight), Krillin (Ginyu-Goku fight), and Nail vs Recoome, Burter, and Jeice

Base Goku (Android arc; maintainable Kaioken x20) vs Android 19

Future Trunks (manga Black arc) vs Ultimate Gohan

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:54 am

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:46 pm
Okay, I'll attempt to provide some more versus matches.

Goku (post Vegeta fight; has a maintainable Kaioken x3), Vegeta (fully rested with Recoome fight strength), Gohan (Ginyu-Goku fight), Krillin (Ginyu-Goku fight), and Nail vs Recoome, Burter, and Jeice

Base Goku (Android arc; maintainable Kaioken x20) vs Android 19

Future Trunks (manga Black arc) vs Ultimate Gohan
1) They have more than a decent chance. Nail is 40,000, like the Ginyu Force. Goku was at 24,000 vs Vegeta, with a zenkai his KKx3 could easily be over 30,000, with Gohan's help, Burter or Jeice go down. Vegeta lasted for a while against Recoome, he can last here again until one of his allies wins their fight and saves his ass.

2) I think that would be an equal fight, with the android having the edge due to the absorption device.

3) Trunks is SS3 level, Ultimate Gohan is above that even taken into consideration power inflation.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Peach » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:45 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:46 pm
Okay, I'll attempt to provide some more versus matches.

Goku (post Vegeta fight; has a maintainable Kaioken x3), Vegeta (fully rested with Recoome fight strength), Gohan (Ginyu-Goku fight), Krillin (Ginyu-Goku fight), and Nail vs Recoome, Burter, and Jeice

Base Goku (Android arc; maintainable Kaioken x20) vs Android 19

Future Trunks (manga Black arc) vs Ultimate Gohan
1. Nail could beat Burter and Juice on his own - giving him allies to help him just makes this easy.

The only challenge is Recoome, who is at a serious disadvantage from:
- Not being able to sense power levels
- Techniques such a the spirit bomb, destro disc, kaio ken, and solar flare
- Being outnumbered.


2. Goku.


3. Trunks by a mile.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:33 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:46 pm
Okay, I'll attempt to provide some more versus matches.

Goku (post Vegeta fight; has a maintainable Kaioken x3), Vegeta (fully rested with Recoome fight strength), Gohan (Ginyu-Goku fight), Krillin (Ginyu-Goku fight), and Nail vs Recoome, Burter, and Jeice

Base Goku (Android arc; maintainable Kaioken x20) vs Android 19

Future Trunks (manga Black arc) vs Ultimate Gohan
Nail is on the Ginyus level but the rest are far behind. It's a very gruesome fight but I think the Ginyus win at the end by a hair.
Goku would beat him only if 19 doesn't absorb his energy. If he absorbs even one ki blast then 19 will get the advantage.
Future Trunks beats him with SS2 since his base is stronger than Shin. This is of course if this Gohan is from the Boo arc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by In Brightest Day » Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:35 pm
It's really a stomp from the second team. Actually, Goku or Vegeta could do it on their own, they could take all of them without any help.

It could be an interesting fight if you remove Goku and Vegeta, though.
Cool, so we’ll remove Goku and Vegeta, and make it:

Merus, Master Roshi, Son Goten, Trunks, Jaco, Android #17, Chaozu, Tarble, Broly.

vs.

Son Gohan, Piccolo, Eighteen, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Majin Boo.


Current manga versions of everyone - the kids can fuse into Gotenks if it’s a stomp.

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