How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

DSB
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:34 am

How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by DSB » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:14 am

His SSG power went to his SSj form right? So what happened afterwards?

Was SSj goku as strong as BoG SSG Goku for the rest of super? Or did that power become SSB and SSj goku reverted to what he was before BoG? Is that why Trunks could match up to him?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3849
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:25 am

This thread is better suited to insert your question.

But, to answer it, I would say this is one of a few inconsistencies the Dragon Ball Super anime introduced. Goku had godly power as a Super Saiyan from Beerus arc until the retelling of Freeza’s movie. From Champa arc and on, he didn’t had such strength as a Super Saiyan, he needed Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan Blue.

User avatar
Yuji
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Yuji » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:37 am

In the manga, it was never stated or implied that Goku absorbed the form's power, as he fought with SSG the entirety of the fight. As such, it's pretty simple, he was exactly as strong post-BoG as he was before (the fact that RF was omitted from the manga makes what would be a confusing mess pretty simple).

In the anime, I'm in the camp that Goku's power is constantly being retconned depending on the writer. At some point, his base form functions in the realm of the mortals (Piccolo having a better showing against Frost, having to turn Super Saiyan against the Great Saiyaman, being overpowered by a Pride Trooper #18 could lift, etc), at other points he's God tier (beating SS3 Gotenks, RF). I'd say that outside of "filler" and BoG/RF he's marginally stronger than he was in the Boo arc.

User avatar
Peach
Regular
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Peach » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:56 am

In the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F films, Goku absorbed some of the power of a Super Saiyan God into his normal form. So when he goes Super Saiyan, it's just blue now. Because it's Super Saiyan with the power of a god.

In the show and manga, he never absorbed that power into himself. Goku can still turn red - instead of permanently having that power absorbed into himself. If either of the Saiyans need to access divine ki now, they jump into either of the two god forms. They're treated more or less like forms above his Super Saiyan 3 forms than his new base power and Super Saiyan form.

I have some doubts than Red and Blue are actually as strong as people think or hype them up to be - since Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan (who regained the form hours before before the TOP) are similar in strength with pretty much no training,. The gap between their strength and Beerus' strength is far larger than the 70% from the Battle of Gods movie too.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:04 am

The manga never picked up on the whole absorb SSG into oneself like the anime and BoG and RoF did. So his SS is slightly superior to Z SS.

The anime went with RoF's idea that his base form was like his SSG from BoG or something like that, and used it for non-official arcs, like fillers on planet Potaefu, or for the recruitment process for the ToP (Goku's base fighting Fit Buu), but when a Toriyama arc landed they went with the "official" powerscaling that drops BoG and RoF' implications and SS is just SS like seen during the ToP, vs Frost and vs Trunks.

User avatar
Shintoki
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Shintoki » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:51 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:04 am
The manga never picked up on the whole absorb SSG into oneself like the anime and BoG and RoF did. So his SS is slightly superior to Z SS.

The anime went with RoF's idea that his base form was like his SSG from BoG or something like that, and used it for non-official arcs, like fillers on planet Potaefu, or for the recruitment process for the ToP (Goku's base fighting Fit Buu), but when a Toriyama arc landed they went with the "official" powerscaling that drops BoG and RoF' implications and SS is just SS like seen during the ToP, vs Frost and vs Trunks.
couldn't have worded it better, beautifully phrased.

it was quite a mess, but at least we now know that SSG is still its own thing rather than being absorbed in goku's base in toriyama's vision :crazy:
PurestEvil wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm
You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am
Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4858
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:44 pm

Around 50 times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

Goku having the power of SSG in his Super Saiyan form was only a thing in BoG. If not then his SSG would be hundreds of times stronger in RoF than BoG so that can't be it.

Or his Super Saiyan form before RoF was close to SSB and once he achieved that his Super Saiyan reverted back into normal levels? It's hard to say but it's undeniable that his SS form is way above SS3 Gotenks after the ritual.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3849
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:21 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Or his Super Saiyan form before RoF was close to SSB and once he achieved that his Super Saiyan reverted back into normal levels? It's hard to say but it's undeniable that his SS form is way above SS3 Gotenks after the ritual.
I guess this is one of the instances that Goku and Vegeta had SSGod’s power in their base forms, like in RoF.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4858
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:01 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:21 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Or his Super Saiyan form before RoF was close to SSB and once he achieved that his Super Saiyan reverted back into normal levels? It's hard to say but it's undeniable that his SS form is way above SS3 Gotenks after the ritual.
I guess this is one of the instances that Goku and Vegeta had SSGod’s power in their base forms, like in RoF.
There's no indicator to show that. Toei went out of his way to demonstrate when Gohan was Ultimate or not by using his bang. Nothing was done for Goku or Vegeta.

User avatar
Shintoki
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Shintoki » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:03 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:21 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Or his Super Saiyan form before RoF was close to SSB and once he achieved that his Super Saiyan reverted back into normal levels? It's hard to say but it's undeniable that his SS form is way above SS3 Gotenks after the ritual.
I guess this is one of the instances that Goku and Vegeta had SSGod’s power in their base forms, like in RoF.
you know, it could be perfectly explained as just goku and vegeta increasing their base power considerably so like freeza. since it's a theme by now where whis keep scolding the duo not to relay in transformations and improve their base forms instead. 8)
PurestEvil wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm
You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am
Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3849
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:01 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:21 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Or his Super Saiyan form before RoF was close to SSB and once he achieved that his Super Saiyan reverted back into normal levels? It's hard to say but it's undeniable that his SS form is way above SS3 Gotenks after the ritual.
I guess this is one of the instances that Goku and Vegeta had SSGod’s power in their base forms, like in RoF.
There's no indicator to show that. Toei went out of his way to demonstrate when Gohan was Ultimate or not by using his bang. Nothing was done for Goku or Vegeta.
Toei never explicitly distinguished when were using those god-like base forms or not. Probably because they never officially acknowledged to exist such a difference. We can only infer that by distinguishing who they are fighting.

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Lionel » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:02 pm

It would depend on who you ask. I'm of the opinion that Goku may have increased his power to the point that he could challenge Kid Buu with only Super Saiyan. By the time of ROF and the Champa arcs who can say precisely how much stronger he's become? It's possible he could have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc -- training with a powerful angel like Whis will do that to you.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4858
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:19 pm

Lionel wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:02 pm
It would depend on who you ask. I'm of the opinion that Goku may have increased his power to the point that he could challenge Kid Buu with only Super Saiyan. By the time of ROF and the Champa arcs who can say precisely how much stronger he's become? It's possible he could have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc -- training with a powerful angel like Whis will do that to you.
I'm curious. Where do you have RoF 1st form Freeza?

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Lionel » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:37 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:19 pm
Lionel wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:02 pm
It would depend on who you ask. I'm of the opinion that Goku may have increased his power to the point that he could challenge Kid Buu with only Super Saiyan. By the time of ROF and the Champa arcs who can say precisely how much stronger he's become? It's possible he could have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc -- training with a powerful angel like Whis will do that to you.
I'm curious. Where do you have RoF 1st form Freeza?
Wasn't it you who pointed out Krillin's prospect of Buu sufficing against Freeza long enough for Goku and Vegeta to arrive or am I thinking of someone else? At face value it sounds like Buu could manage or at least occupy Freeza in his heaviest suppressed form. It's odd when thinking of how Gohan is still regarded as the most powerful on the battlefield next to the Super Namekian Piccolo who trains consistently throughout his life; he may have surpassed Goku or even MSSJ Gohan from the Cell Games for all we know. Is SSJ Gohan from the ROF arc somewhere between that higher Cell Games standard and Good Buu? It's a tier albeit a somewhat narrow one.

Answering your question -- I suppose around Good Buu's level?

BWri
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1428
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by BWri » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:04 am
The manga never picked up on the whole absorb SSG into oneself like the anime and BoG and RoF did. So his SS is slightly superior to Z SS.

The anime went with RoF's idea that his base form was like his SSG from BoG or something like that, and used it for non-official arcs, like fillers on planet Potaefu, or for the recruitment process for the ToP (Goku's base fighting Fit Buu), but when a Toriyama arc landed they went with the "official" powerscaling that drops BoG and RoF' implications and SS is just SS like seen during the ToP, vs Frost and vs Trunks.
This is also how I see it. The cracks in the anime power scale started with the whole Goku, Piccolo, and Vegeta v Frost fights. If Goku and Vegeta had god in base and needed SSJ to handle Frost, then Piccolo would have to be close to god level himself. People will say Frost lost a lot of power after fighting Goku, but Vegeta still felt the need to go SSJ to get the OHKO. He wasn't confident he could do so in base. This was after 3 years of RoSaT training before which Goku stalemated Frieza's final form in base. So the implication would that Frost is much stronger than all of Frieza's forms except for Golden.

**Oh and to answer the topic question (using the manga), I think SSJ Goku started off stronger than Perfect Cell, fought Beerus and gained some strength (not a lot in his mortal forms), trained with Whis and possibly doubled his mortal power before facing Frieza, didn't increase much during the 3 years of RoSaT training - maybe he doubled it again, if that since the anime implies they wouldn't grow much and they didn't seem to gain much in the manga either, then I think most of his gains were gotten via optimizing his god forms. I currently think Goku's overall strength has grown drastically since the Moro arc, so his SSJ is probably around as strong as Buu saga Vegetto. He and Vegeta are getting to where they were in the anime.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4858
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:28 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:37 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:19 pm
Lionel wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:02 pm
It would depend on who you ask. I'm of the opinion that Goku may have increased his power to the point that he could challenge Kid Buu with only Super Saiyan. By the time of ROF and the Champa arcs who can say precisely how much stronger he's become? It's possible he could have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc -- training with a powerful angel like Whis will do that to you.
I'm curious. Where do you have RoF 1st form Freeza?
Wasn't it you who pointed out Krillin's prospect of Buu sufficing against Freeza long enough for Goku and Vegeta to arrive or am I thinking of someone else? At face value it sounds like Buu could manage or at least occupy Freeza in his heaviest suppressed form. It's odd when thinking of how Gohan is still regarded as the most powerful on the battlefield next to the Super Namekian Piccolo who trains consistently throughout his life; he may have surpassed Goku or even MSSJ Gohan from the Cell Games for all we know. Is SSJ Gohan from the ROF arc somewhere between that higher Cell Games standard and Good Buu? It's a tier albeit a somewhat narrow one.

Answering your question -- I suppose around Good Buu's level?
Shit I meant final form Freeza lol.

I'm just undecided as hell if his forms follow the same multipliers they did on Namek.

If they do then base Goku would be 226 times stronger than Good Boo. That bloats everything to hell and back.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:25 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:28 pm
Lionel wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:37 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:19 pm

I'm curious. Where do you have RoF 1st form Freeza?
Wasn't it you who pointed out Krillin's prospect of Buu sufficing against Freeza long enough for Goku and Vegeta to arrive or am I thinking of someone else? At face value it sounds like Buu could manage or at least occupy Freeza in his heaviest suppressed form. It's odd when thinking of how Gohan is still regarded as the most powerful on the battlefield next to the Super Namekian Piccolo who trains consistently throughout his life; he may have surpassed Goku or even MSSJ Gohan from the Cell Games for all we know. Is SSJ Gohan from the ROF arc somewhere between that higher Cell Games standard and Good Buu? It's a tier albeit a somewhat narrow one.

Answering your question -- I suppose around Good Buu's level?
Shit I meant final form Freeza lol.

I'm just undecided as hell if his forms follow the same multipliers they did on Namek.

If they do then base Goku would be 226 times stronger than Good Boo. That bloats everything to hell and back.
I don't see why the multipliers would change, nothing implied that. There's no reason to believe only his first and final form were enhanced, even if they are just power-suppressor forms, there's much more power now so there should be more supression needed. No comment was ever made about his other forms.
Maybe not as much, maybe 226x is too much, I don't know, but his FF should be at least 100x than his first form. Way stronger, at least.

User avatar
Shintoki
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:32 am

Re: How strong is SSj Goku post BoG?

Post by Shintoki » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:38 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:25 pm
I don't see why the multipliers would change, nothing implied that. There's no reason to believe only his first and final form were enhanced, even if they are just power-suppressor forms, there's much more power now so there should be more supression needed. No comment was ever made about his other forms.
Maybe not as much, maybe 226x is too much, I don't know, but his FF should be at least 100x than his first form. Way stronger, at least.
i think that regardless of how much powerful freeza has gotten, his power suppressing form should still decrease as much percentage wise as they did in namek. similarly of course to SS and how it still functions the same regardless of goku's level of power.
Lionel wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:02 pm
It would depend on who you ask. I'm of the opinion that Goku may have increased his power to the point that he could challenge Kid Buu with only Super Saiyan. By the time of ROF and the Champa arcs who can say precisely how much stronger he's become? It's possible he could have surpassed Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc -- training with a powerful angel like Whis will do that to you.
Yep, same here. depending on whom you ask, there are some people who still adamantly believe in the ''saiyan beyond god'' thing, and there are people who of course just view it as goku and vegeta increasing their base power so much after training with whis.
PurestEvil wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm
You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am
Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

Post Reply