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Ok, how powerful would they be then? Would Saiyan arc Vegetto/Gogeta be on par with Oozaru Vegeta, as strong as Oozaru Vegeta using the Kaio-ken x4, or higher?
If you go by databooks, written by whoever, then it's multiplication or addition, but if you go by what the many fusions in-universe imply, a Saiyan arc fusion would be as strong or somewhat stronger than the fusee's greatest forms.
Kaioken is a technique and not part of Goku's actual power, so it shouldn't count, not for the base power at least. Ohzaru is a form but it's not easily accesible, not even for Geets. It is possible that a saiyan arc Gogeta ends up being 180,000 or maybe more, but with no tails I'm pretty sure it wouldn't count.
In that case, like in Namek, with no tails and no forms to rely on, I guess it would be just Goku and Vegeta stacked on top of the other. So a 90k Goku and a 30k Vegeta creating a 150-200k Vegito, that can use KK freely.
If you were to multiply them, it would create a fusion that's way beyond what you'd expect even if both fusees had access to SS, it'd be a fusion that could fight Perfect Cell lol. And destroy him with low-key KK.
So, there's no hard rule, it depends on what the plot needs from the fusion.
It's confusing because Gogeta/Vegito are at different levels compared to their fusees each time they are created.theherodjl wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:32 am Suppose that the clock gets rewound to the Saiyan arc and a scenario occurs in which Goku & Vegeta have to fuse instead of fighting each other. Would a Saiyan arc Vegetto/Gogeta be as overwhelming powerful if neither fusee had access to the SSJ/God forms? Would only being able to access Oozaru/Kaio-ken have a detrimental effect on the overall power of a Goku & Vegeta fusion?
Manga: We never see base Vegito fight. All we know is that MSSJ Vegito can roflstomp Buuhan. Since I like to keep my power numbers low, I have base Vegito at SSJ2 level.
DBZ: Base Vegito is way above Buuhan and obviously above SSJ3 Goku, which was Goku's highest transformation at the time.
Fusion Reborn: Never see base Gogeta. And MSSJ Gogeta destroys Janemba worse than Vegito did to Buuhan.
Broly (2019): Base Gogeta does better against SSJ Broly than SSJB Goku does. We don't see SSJB KKx20, though.
My personal interpretation is that base Fusion > the strongest transformation Goku or Vegeta have at the time. Meaning:
- Early Androids base fusion > SSJ Goku/Vegeta
- Cell Games base fusion > MSSJ Goku
- Buu arc base fusion > SSJ3 Goku
- RoF base fusion > SSJB Goku/Vegeta
I say this because there is nothing saying base Vegito isn't over SSJ3 Goku in the manga. I just have him lower due to personal reasons. However, Toei definitely seems to follow this rule for their own stuff. Toei seems to love having their Saiyans with strong bases, so I wouldn't be surprised if base Gogeta in Fusion Reborn was over Janemba too.
And I include Kaioken and UI here to go along with this "rule". So base Gogeta on early Namek would be over 90,000 Goku using KKx10. And Broly movie base Gogeta is over SSJB KKx20. And a current base Gogeta is over UI Goku/UE Vegeta because why the hell not.
All aboard the ever increasing power levels!!!
In a way, yes. Because what determines a fused character power level is the power level of the fusees, not what transformations they might have. Supposing Goku's power level at his max is eight thousand and Vegeta's power level at his max is eighteen thousand, then: 8,000 x 18,000 = 144,000,000. That's Gogeta's/Vegetto's power level.
In another way, no. Since we are talking about a Goku and Vegeta from Saiyan saga, they're way weaker than their selves in Majin Buu saga, so Saiyan saga Gogeta/Vegetto is weaker than Majin Buu saga Gogeta/Vegetto.
In short, they will be powerful. Just not as powerful as they will be in future sagas.
What do you mean "only able to access Oozaru or Kaio-Ken"? Pretty sure Saiyan saga Gogeta/Vegetto can have at least Super Saiyan. And I don't know why they would transform into Oozaru when Kaio-Ken can have higher multipliers, thus providing more power.
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From my perspective, base fusion seems to coincidentally result in a power much greater than the fusee's highest form but this isn't necessarily because fusion scales in proportion to the fusee's greatest form. It's very much a possibility but it's not something that is firmly established in the anime, manga, or any supplementary material out there. It's just a reasonable explanation that most had come up with.
My explanation for this would be that fusion grows exponentially stronger in proportion to the fusee's strength. This is something that is stated by Piccolo when he suggested that even minimal gains will have a greater impact when the kids perform fusion.
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”
This is further substantiated by the improvements Gotenks makes in the Rosat. The kids aren't suggested to have made significant improvements in their individual strength but they evolved to the point where Piccolo thought Super Saiyan Gotenks may have been able to defeat Super Buu despite believing Gotenks had no chance prior.
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!
The key thing to note here is that Piccolo wanted them to train as much as they can. He never expected a new form from Gotenks so he fully expected Gotenks to grow significantly stronger to have a chance. And based on Piccolo's response to SSJ Gotenks' power upon transformation, I would say Piccolo's expectations were satisfied.
The reason why fusion seems to grow stronger in relation to the fusee's strongest form is because the Saiyans base power grew stronger as they acquired new forms. However, the caveat to this is based on what Goku claims about the fusions' power upon its introduction.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
The way this can be interpreted is that the greatest power that both would be capable of is their greatest form. Since the fusion supersedes both fusees, naturally it can be inferred that fusion scales in proportion to the sum of their greatest form's power. The way I see it is that fusion still increases exponentially in proportion to the fusee's base power but that power naturally winds up being greater than the sum of their greatest forms combined for whatever reason.
I would wager that:
Saiyan Saga Gogeta -> 100k+.
Namek Saga Gogeta -> 250k+ with the added bonus of Kaioken x10
Namek Saga Gogeta (vs. Frieza) -> ~10 million with the added bonus of Kaioken x20
Android Saga Gogeta -> >(SSJ Goku + SSJ Vegeta). This power would exceed the power of Kamiccolo, Androids 17 and 18, and perhaps reach Android 16's level. Gogeta can use Super Saiyan on top of that which would be enough to beat Warm Up Perfect Cell and likely reach 50% MSSJ Goku's level using a 50x SSJ multiplier.
Cell Games Gogeta -> >(MSSJ Goku + SSJ Vegeta) as his base power. Base Gogeta would already surpass SSJ2 Goku and then can increase his power 50-fold. Super Gogeta would naturally be much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Fat Buu, and SSJ Gotenks (Pre) at least.
Buu Saga Gogeta -> >(SSJ2 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta) as his base power. This power would supersede SSJ3 Goku and then can magnify his power with Super Saiyan 3. Super Gogeta would likely possess more power than Buuhan.
I dislike attempting power levels in general but that would be an approximation for Gogeta.
Z Vegetto is interesting because he's implied to be the strongest possible fusion and Elder Kaioshin stated that Potara Gokhan would be more than enough against Buutenks without transforming. Assuming Base Gokhan ~ Buuhan and Vegetto > Gokhan, that would mean that Base Vegetto could very well be above Buuhan which coincidentally matches up to where the anime has him at.
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For example, Gogeta wasn't at the level of Ultra Instinct or even SSB Kaioken/Evolved in his base form.
It could be that the compatibility of Goku and Vegeta somewhat came down to what kind of forms both were able to utilize and were compatible with each other. So, in the Broly movie's case, because both of them have compatible SSB forms as their highest shared level, Gogeta ends up becoming a warrior who possesses this power in his base form and easily accesses the form itself.