Is Porunga more powerful than Shenron?

[the_abberration]

I always assumed that Porunga was the stronger of the two. Is there anything to suggest which was more powerful? I'm also assume Guru made him, so was he stronger than Kami?

[Bussani]

Well, they could grant 3 wishes, even though they couldn't bring multiple people back at once. They were later upgraded by the Buu saga to be able to do that though. Uh, but Shenlong was also upgraded to grant 3 wishes at that point... Hmm.

I can't remember anything other than that which suggests he's outright more powerful.

[Cold Skin]

Well at the beginning you can say Shenron and Polunga are "even".

Shenron has a more focused wish power, which concentrates it all in one wish: only one, but very powerful, able to resurrect large amounts of people for example. A limit set forbids the use of the same wish twice though, which also prevents a same person from being resurrecting twice.

Polunga's power is less focused, set apart in three wishes. More wishes, but their possibilities is weaker and can't take in account large quantities of elements involved, which makes the ressurection of only one person per wish (though with an infinite amount of times).

Shenron's increased power from the Cell arc might give him a slight advantage due to a good compromise: he retains all of his usual limitations, but he's got one more wish, which makes two power-focused wish able to affect large quantities of elements per wish. Despite the flaw of still being able to resurrect a same person only once, I guess it could be deemed the best compromise and most useful set of possibilities at this point.

In the end, Polunga becomes the most powerful one: through his update, he retains all three wishes AND all of the advantages of Shenron such as impacting large amount of elements (i.e. resurrecting many people in one wish).

[Bussani]

By the Buu arc (and probably by the end of the Cell arc) Shenlong is supposedly able to grant 3 wishes as well. It's just that a big wish like "bring back everyone killed by Cell" takes up 2 of those 3 wishes. I think that's how Herms explained it, anyway.

[Herms]

In the Boo arc, Piccolo explains that Shenlong can grant 3 wishes normally, but only 2 if one of the wishes is to revive a large number of people (meaning that they only have one wish left after Yamcha revives everyone killed by Vegeta at the tournament). In the Cell arc, Dende says that if he makes the dragonballs able to revive large amounts of people at once, they will only be able to grant two wishes, but otherwise he'd be able to make them grant 3. In the Boo arc Piccolo doesn't treat this "summoning by summoning" way of determining the number of wishes as something new, so it seems that it's either a retcon, or Dende/Toriyama didn't do a good enough job of explaining things in back during the Cell Games.

[Cold Skin]

In the Boo arc, Piccolo explains that Shenlong can grant 3 wishes normally, but only 2 if one of the wishes is to revive a large number of people (meaning that they only have one wish left after Yamcha revives everyone killed by Vegeta at the tournament). In the Cell arc, Dende says that if he makes the dragonballs able to revive large amounts of people at once, they will only be able to grant two wishes, but otherwise he'd be able to make them grant 3. In the Boo arc Piccolo doesn't treat this "summoning by summoning" way of determining the number of wishes as something new, so it seems that it's either a retcon, or Dende/Toriyama didn't do a good enough job of explaining things in back during the Cell Games.

You're absolutely right! I never noticed that!

VOLUME 33 "BEGINNING OF THE CELL GAME"
Chapter 394 "Beginning of the Cell Game"

PICCOLO: "And we'll be able to resurrect several persons with one wish, too? For example, 'resurrect all those who've been killed by Cell'...?"
DENDE: "What?... Well, I can probably do that, I think it's possible... But in that case, you'll only be able to make two wishes."

VOLUME 39 "FAREWELL, WARRIOR WHOSE PRIDE REMAINED UNEQUALLED"
Chapter 469: "A thin hope"

DENDE: "If she makes her three wishes, we'll have to wait a year before being able to summon the dragon again..."
[...]
SHENRON: "Well, pronounce your wish. I shall grant it, whatever that is. But I shall only accept three."

Did Dende enhance the Dragon Balls during those seven years? As Herms says, was it a bad formulation of the rule that is brought in during the Cell arc? Did Toriyama forget that only two wishes could be granted back then?

Guess that's up to everyone to decide. I personally choose option one for me, an enhancement Dende would have made during those long seven years (he had time). But if I choose it, it's because it's the most convenient one to avoid a plot hole! (The most "plot hole" one being obviously the last one with the author forgetting what he did!)

[Herms]

You left out the Boo arc line where Piccolo tells Goku that actually only 1 wish remains, since they revived lots of people with the first one.

[Cold Skin]

You left out the Boo arc line where Piccolo tells Goku that actually only 1 wish remains, since they revived lots of people with the first one.

Oh, you're right! Here it is.

VOLUME 40: "THE LAST SECRET WEAPON OF THE EARTH ARMY"
Chapter 473: "Son Goku face to face with Majin Boo!"

BULMA: "My father and my mother are gonna get killed."
GOKU: "Don't worry, we'll resurrect them with the Dragon Balls."
BULMA: "But the whole West Capital will be destroyed!"
GOKU: "We'll rebuild it with the second wish."
PICCOLO: "No, the first wish has already been used to resurrect a large quantity of people, so there's only one wish left."
GOKU: "Oh! I didn't know it worked that way... Hum... What if we ask Shenron to 'put everything as it used to be'?"
PICCOLO: "Maybe! No... Wait..."

Bulma then interrupts to say the Dragon Radar is out there anyway. We don't know the end of the Piccolo's thought, but at the last moment, he seems doubtful that another formulation would make it work.
So it does seem that by Boo's arc, resurrecting too many people takes two wishes, as you said!

[Herms]

Now that I think about it, Goku's "Oh! I didn't know it worked that way" line might be Toriyama's way of introducing this new concept.

[Dayspring]

Now that I think about it, Goku's "Oh! I didn't know it worked that way" line might be Toriyama's way of introducing this new concept.

For years I used to understand it as Dende saying there were two ways for Dende to bring back the DBs: either 2 wishes Kami style or 3 wishes Saichoru style, and that they chose the 2-wish style. I used to take the Boo changes as being Dende "upgrading" to three wishes over the gap. Since Goku's IQ is that of a carrot (...heeeey! ), maybe he understood it that way, too?

So to answer the Porgunga VS Shenron question, I'd say Porgunga is stronger, but only because Saichoru seems stronger than Kami, and because we flat out see that Muri's DBs are stronger than Dende's.

[Rocketman]

For years I used to understand it as Dende saying there were two ways for Dende to bring back the DBs: either 2 wishes Kami style or 3 wishes Saichoru style, and that they chose the 2-wish style.

My mind is boggled over finding out this isn't the case.

[Bussani]

I personally choose option one for me, an enhancement Dende would have made during those long seven years (he had time). But if I choose it, it's because it's the most convenient one to avoid a plot hole! (The most "plot hole" one being obviously the last one with the author forgetting what he did!)

Really? The most convenient way for me is what Herms said. Either it wasn't explained well at first or it was a retcon into saying it wasn't explained well first. If you read what Dende said (in the English version at least)...

DENDE: "What?... Well, I can probably do that, I think it's possible... But in that case, you'll only be able to make two wishes."

That can be taken the way it turns out to work, so there isn't really need for him to have upgraded them.

For years I used to understand it as Dende saying there were two ways for Dende to bring back the DBs: either 2 wishes Kami style or 3 wishes Saichoru style, and that they chose the 2-wish style.

My mind is boggled over finding out this isn't the case.

I had to read this a couple of times before seeing what you meant. It's like you get the choice on the spot now; 2 wishes Kami style or 3 wishes Saichoro style, depending on what your wish is.

But yeah, I think by the end Porunga could grant 3 Kami style wishes, couldn't he? Or wishing back a large number of people didn't seem to impact the number of wishes you had, anyway. So I guess he's more powerful.

[Herms]

One problem with the idea this apparent change in rules is a retcon is that there's no clear reason why Toriyama would need to retcon things. Under the (apparent) Cell Games-era rules, there would only be one wish left after Bulma and the others make their wish, no matter what it was. Under the Boo-era rules, there's still only one wish left, and no more than that ever get used, so why suddenly make a change saying that there would have been more wishes left if Bulma and co. had made a different wish? Perhaps Toriyama was planning on the dragonballs being eventually used again, with a full set of three wishes, but he never got around to it?

[Bussani]

One problem with the idea this apparent change in rules is a retcon is that there's no clear reason why Toriyama would need to retcon things. Under the (apparent) Cell Games-era rules, there would only be one wish left after Bulma and the others make their wish, no matter what it was. Under the Boo-era rules, there's still only one wish left, and no more than that ever get used, so why suddenly make a change saying that there would have been more wishes left if Bulma and co. had made a different wish? Perhaps Toriyama was planning on the dragonballs being eventually used again, with a full set of three wishes, but he never got around to it?

Good point. Maybe he really just didn't explain it well the first time around. When I read that Dende line, it does seem like that's what he might have had in mind. Does it give a similar implication in the Japanese version as well?

[Cold Skin]

I personally choose option one for me, an enhancement Dende would have made during those long seven years (he had time). But if I choose it, it's because it's the most convenient one to avoid a plot hole! (The most "plot hole" one being obviously the last one with the author forgetting what he did!)

Really? The most convenient way for me is what Herms said. Either it wasn't explained well at first or it was a retcon into saying it wasn't explained well first. If you read what Dende said (in the English version at least)...

You're right actually. Sometimes I tend to overthink things. And as Herms said, Goku's reply would tend to show that it always worked like that, but the hero, as well as the reader, misunderstood this during Dende's explanation during the Cell arc. This might be a clever way for Toriyama to connect the reader to the main protagonist while he's at it.

One problem with the idea this apparent change in rules is a retcon is that there's no clear reason why Toriyama would need to retcon things. Under the (apparent) Cell Games-era rules, there would only be one wish left after Bulma and the others make their wish, no matter what it was. Under the Boo-era rules, there's still only one wish left, and no more than that ever get used, so why suddenly make a change saying that there would have been more wishes left if Bulma and co. had made a different wish? Perhaps Toriyama was planning on the dragonballs being eventually used again, with a full set of three wishes, but he never got around to it?

Good point indeed! You might be right.

[Dayspring]

What didn't help was Gohan's reaction to the rules' explanation in the Cell saga. Especially since he normally isn't greedy or needlessly rude.

Hey! Gohan! Beggars can't be choosy, y'bastich!

[Bussani]

What didn't help was Gohan's reaction to the rules' explanation in the Cell saga. Especially since he normally isn't greedy or needlessly rude.

Hey! Gohan! Beggars can't be choosy, y'bastich!

Which reaction? After Dende tells them it'll work, but they'll only get 2 wishes, Gohan says, "What?? That's all it takes?" This sounds more like he's impressed at the deal than complaining about it.

[Dayspring]

What didn't help was Gohan's reaction to the rules' explanation in the Cell saga. Especially since he normally isn't greedy or needlessly rude.

Hey! Gohan! Beggars can't be choosy, y'bastich!

Which reaction? After Dende tells them it'll work, but they'll only get 2 wishes, Gohan says, "What?? That's all it takes?" This sounds more like he's impressed at the deal than complaining about it.

In VIZ's version or the original? In the French one, the sentence reads "Huh/What?? That's all?"

"That's all it takes?" refers to what, exactly? It immediately follows Dende explaining the fault.

[Bussani]

It follows Dende saying that it's possible for them to wish a large amount of people back to life, but it reduces the wishes to 2. The way Gohan says "That's all it takes?" and the look on his face makes it seem like he's impressed, in my opinion.

Then Piccolo instantly says, "Excellent. Let's do it."

[Cold Skin]

What didn't help was Gohan's reaction to the rules' explanation in the Cell saga. Especially since he normally isn't greedy or needlessly rude.

Hey! Gohan! Beggars can't be choosy, y'bastich!

Which reaction? After Dende tells them it'll work, but they'll only get 2 wishes, Gohan says, "What?? That's all it takes?" This sounds more like he's impressed at the deal than complaining about it.

In VIZ's version or the original? In the French one, the sentence reads "Huh/What?? That's all?"

"That's all it takes?" refers to what, exactly? It immediately follows Dende explaining the fault.

In the updated French translation, it goes:

DENDE: "What?... Well, I can probably do that, I think it's possible... But in that case, you'll only be able to make two wishes."
GOHAN: "What? That's all that's required?..."
PICCOLO: "It'll be perfect, let's do that."

So Son Gohan is actually amazed that the price to pay is quite low and how good this solution is.