Quick Daizenshuu 7 question

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:14 pm

Packed my daizenshuu so I can't check myself. In the 4 timelines explanation, does it say Trunks of its TL3 returned with blueprints to #17 or blueprints to the remote control? If the remote control, I think I figured out how things occured in its TL4 (ignoring the random Cell Games, of course).

TL4's 767 (which would be TL2 using cause and effect):
-Because of the lack of a time traveling Cell, Piccolo will never fuse with Kami in this timeline and fight Cell in Ginger Town.
-Because no battle with Cell occured in Ginger Town, Vegeta won't go to investigate, which leads him to suggest training to surpass SSJ.
-Because Vegeta never makes that suggestion, Goku will not think to suggest ROSAT as a means to meet that goal.
-Because of the lack of a time traveling Cell, they will not conclude that he is the easiest of the 4 targets (with biggest potential threat), and thus don't spend the next 4 days chasing him in skycars.
-Because they don't chase Cell over the next 4 days, they rededicate all efforts to trying to figure out how to defeat just the androids. Someone will suggest checking out the debris of Gero's lab. Before finding the entrance subbasement with Cell and #17's blueprints, they will find blueprints from the main floor survived the explosion. These blueprints are for the remote control itself.
-Because they leave once they find it, this time traveling Trunks will never find the basement and learn of Cell.
-Because these blueprints are for the remote control itself, it will take Bulma barely any time at all to make a new remote, since they only have to follow the instructions.
-Because they have a remote, the androids are destroyed when they show up at Kame House.

TL3's 785-788 (which would be TL1 using cause and effect):
-Because Trunks has the remote, he destroys androids #17 and #18 without ever needing to use ROSAT.
-Because he never used ROSAT, he will be no match for Cell when Cell shows up at least as strong as #17. Cell kills Trunks and steals the time machine.

Cold Skin · Post by **Cold Skin** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:39 pm

I don't know what it says but it makes sense that he gets back home with the blueprints for the remote control, as it is THE way to get rid of them when you're not strong enough.

Guess he could take the remote(s) used in the present directly into the future after they defeated them in the present...

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:36 pm

It says he got the blueprints for the remote control. Here's the whole thing:

DragonBall World Time Paradox Research
The Four Futures Explained

History 1; Main Story
763: Cell arrives in egg form
764: Trunks defeats Freeza and his father, Goku returns to Earth
766: Trunks is born
767: The artificial humans appear. The Cell Games open.
774: Majin Buu is revived.
784: Goku and Uub fly off from the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai.

History 2
764: Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza and his father. Afterwards, he dies from a contagious disease.
766: Trunks is born
767: The artificial humans appear. The Earth’s warriors are almost complete wiped out.
780: Gohan dies
784: The time machine is completed, and Trunks goes to the past.
785: After returning from the past, Trunks defeats No.17 and No.18 with his own ability.
788: Trunks defeats Cell.

History 3
785: Trunks defeats No.17 and No.18 with the emergency stop controller
788: Trunks has his time machine hijacked by Cell

History 4
767: The Cell Games open (Trunks isn’t present)
?

The History 1 above is the history of the main story. History 2 is the history of the Trunks who came from the future. There, Trunks defeated No.17, No.18, and Cell. If that’s the case, then where did the Cell who came to History 1 come from? There should be a future where Cell kills Trunks and steals his time machine. That is History 3. In History 3, No.17 and No.18 weren’t around by the time Cell was born. That’s why Cell headed to the past, but what happened to No.17 and No.18? The truth is that after obtaining the blueprints for the emergency stop controller in the past, Trunks returned to the future and used that to defeat them! If that’s so, then there should be a history where Trunks wasn’t present during the Cell Games. That is History 4. It’s endlessly interesting to think what kind of future it would have ended up like after that. To go off topic a bit, why wasn’t Majin Buu revived in History 2 or 3? The answer is simple: there was no longer anyone on Earth with gigantic energy.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:15 am

SWEET. Thanks, Herms. This tidbit gives us the info I need to finish a plothole-free timeline explanation (one where cause and effect explain where the other timelines come from). Here's what I've got so far:

TL1: Original Timeline
-Trunks goes back to TL2, which is the daizenshuu's version of TL4.
-Trunks returns with the remote made from the blueprints found in TL2 and destroys the androids.
-Cell kills Trunks and steals time machine. Since the manga explains that his time machine is out of fuel, we can conclude that Piccolo's guess was an accurate one; the machine wasn't fully charged at the time of being stolen -that Trunks meant to make a two-way trip to 767- and simply went to 763 because Cell didn't pilot it, resulting in it simply going as far back in time as it could.

TL2: Unseen Timeline
-See my explanation in the first post. This is the timeline created by the original Trunks.

TL3: Trunks' timeline
-Cell arrives in embryo form.
-Because he went further back than 764, he created a new plothole and thus a new timeline, one that will be identical to the original except for Cell's minor influence.
-Cell will either be killed by the androids prior to charging up (hit by a blast meant to take out whatever town he's in, etc) or killed by Piccolo in Ginger Town. Since there was no 3-years training, Piccolo will be killed by the androids anyway.
-History unfolds identically to the original timeline from here on.
-Trunks goes back in time, returns stronger from ROSAT.
-Trunks kills the androids and Cell of this timeline.

TL4: The Manga timeline
-Because Trunks only went to 764, the embryo of future Cell will be duplicated as well.
-Everything we see in the manga.

The warning of the wrong androids is the only plothole that remains (the Trunks we see in 764 is the same Trunks of TL3, so since he says he fought them, we have to assume it's a plothole). Cell's comment about Trunks fighting Freeza is due to the fact that he was present in monster form at 764. Thus, he simply sensed their large kis.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:23 pm

About your last point, that doesn't work. Cell was surprised that another Trunks was in "his" time line. He couldn't have sensed the battle. And he knew that the spy robot decided not to collect Trunks's cells, meaning that he was talking about the events of the time line he came from.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:04 pm

I don't think there is a plothole free version of the timelines. I've talked about it a few times, and I usually end up at a point that almost makes sense, except one Trunks somehow ends up travelling to two seperate timelines in the same instant somehow.

And that's ignoring the extra Cell games the Daiz talks about of course.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:24 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:he knew that the spy robot decided not to collect Trunks's cells, meaning that he was talking about the events of the time line he came from.

Which, of course, doesn't work, as he's not (or "shouldn't be") from a timeline where Trunks showed up to defeat Freeza and Cold...

Then again, does he really mention the Trunks / Freeza fight? I seem to remember he only mentions Freeza and Cold arriving on Earth and not having Trunks' cells because he had enough Saiyan cells already... If you ignore the "obviously-killed-by-Trunks'-sword Freeza" flashback pic, it's not really contradictory.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:20 pm

Oh, I know! Trunks' sword was actually one that Goku picked up on Yardrat, and used to kill Freeza with in the original timeline (probably because he was getting nostalgic for the days when he used Nyoibo, and that was the closest thing to it they had). Then after Goku died, Trunks somehow got his hands on it. Goku just left it in his ship in the series' main timeline, since there wasn't any fighting to be done. And he didn't remark on how Trunks' sword looked just like his own because, um...physics or something.

Darn, thought I had something there.

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:12 pm

Well, this is my attempt to make sense of the timeline shenanigans. Okay, in 764, Trunks arrives from 784, kills Freeza and Cold, speaks with Goku, and departs back to his native timeline. The Kanzenban changed the names of the Androids Trunks mentions to 17 and 18, so we don't have to worry about that little inconsistency. That's one split. Then Trunks arrives again in 767 from 785 on the day the androids arrive, stays for the duration of events, and returns once again to his native timeline. That's two splits. Then Cell kills a victorious alternate Trunks in 788 and takes the time machine back to 763, creating a third split before either of the first two. Then we have an alternate version of these events where Trunks kills Cell in 788 and goes back to give everyone the good news in some unknown year (presumably after 767), so that's one last split.

Okay, if the time machine can only travel through time, this makes no damn sense at all. First off, when Trunks returned to 784, he should have arrived in a timeline where the events of 767 as seen in the main timeline occurred without either him or Cell. How they would have played out is unknown. Secondly, when he went back from 785, it should have just deposited him on the day of 17 and 18's arrival in his own timeline, not the one in the main timeline. Lastly, when Cell went back to 763, he should have arrived in a timeline where Trunks never shows up at all.

For this to make any sense, the machine needs to not just travel through time, but also be able to select which timeline it travels to. How the Hell a machine could do this is beyond me, but it's Dragon Ball, so I'll let it slide. Besides, we know from Trunks that Bulma always knew the timeline would branch when the time machine was used. So, in the end, we have:

Timeline 1: Nothing is changed by time travel. Goku gets sick and dies, 17 and 18 show up and wreak havoc, Trunks goes back twice, then is killed by Cell, who goes back.

Timeline 2: The timeline we never see. Trunks comes back in time, Cell doesn't. Trunks from Timeline 1 arrives to take out Freeza and give Goku the medicine. He then comes back again to help fight the androids. They are able to somehow defeat them, and Trunks, with the "off switch" remote, returns to Timeline 1 and kills the androids there.

Timeline 3: The main timeline. Trunks and Cell both come back in time. We all know how this turns out.

Timeline 4: Identical to Timeline 1 until Trunks returns from Timeline 3 with knowledge of Cell and insane power from the RoS&T. He kills the androids and Cell, then returns to Timeline 3 one last time to give out the good news.

So, Trunks's time travel created Timeline 2, while Cell's time travel created both Timelines 3 and 4, since it affected people from two different timelines. I don't think there's any problems here.

NOTE: In 767, Cell tells Piccolo that it will be 24 years until he is completed. This is an error, because everything else indicates it will be 21 years. Toriyama may have been thinking of the time since Freeza's arrival, rather than the time from the present. He seems to be hung on that year, too, as Piccolo makes a similar mistake asking why Cell waited 3 years to attack, when he really waited 4.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:26 pm

johnboy1 wrote:The Kanzenban changed the names of the Androids Trunks mentions to 17 and 18, so we don't have to worry about that little inconsistency.

No they didn't.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:30 pm

Johnboy, that's pretty much exactly how I view it. But there is a problem with it that I can't solve, so maybe you can help.

As you say, the 4th timeline is identical to the 1st up to an undetermined point, but we know the point of the split is before, or at the moment of, Trunks confronting Cell instead of getting killed by him. The problem this leaves is that we have two "present" timelines, by which I mean 2 versions of the main story shown in the story, each with their own Trunks. But, there is possibly only one Trunks, depending on when 1 and 4 split.

To explain slightly better, let's follow it chronologically (for lack of a better word). We have Timeline 1, which is the timeline Trunks comes from. He arrives in the past, creating timeline 2, which he later revisits. Then, back in his own time, he's killed by Cell and Cell goes back, creating timeline 3.

Now then, a Trunks shows up in this timeline too, at the same point as he would have shown up in timeline 2. But, nothing in timeline 1 has happened by the time of his first trip to split it into timelines 1 and 4. It seems the soonest point it could split is when Trunks arrives back in his time, since one of them would have arrived in a time with Cell in it and one wouldn't, and that minute difference could change things.

So this is the problem. There would appear to only be 1 Trunks, the Trunks from timeline 1, who somehow, when he goes back in time for the first, ends up in timeline 2 and timeline 3 simultaneously.

Of course, a possible solution, and one that solves the timeline jumping the machine does, is the infinite dimensions theory. That there are already an infinite number of varying timelines, and that upon travelling through time, the machine and it's occupant are duplicated infinitely and each ends up in one of the various timelines, of which we are only explicitly made aware of 3.

This does sort of go against the cause and effect type of time travel apparently depicted though.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:32 pm

Herms wrote:
johnboy1 wrote:The Kanzenban changed the names of the Androids Trunks mentions to 17 and 18, so we don't have to worry about that little inconsistency.
No they didn't.

I tend to just ignore it anyway, since it was caused by outside influences rather than a plot point. Plus it just makes things easier.

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:57 pm

Herms wrote:No they didn't.

...Are you sure?

Amigo Ten wrote:Johnboy, that's pretty much exactly how I view it. But there is a problem with it that I can't solve, so maybe you can help.

As you say, the 4th timeline is identical to the 1st up to an undetermined point, but we know the point of the split is before, or at the moment of, Trunks confronting Cell instead of getting killed by him. The problem this leaves is that we have two "present" timelines, by which I mean 2 versions of the main story shown in the story, each with their own Trunks. But, there is possibly only one Trunks, depending on when 1 and 4 split.

To explain slightly better, let's follow it chronologically (for lack of a better word). We have Timeline 1, which is the timeline Trunks comes from. He arrives in the past, creating timeline 2, which he later revisits. Then, back in his own time, he's killed by Cell and Cell goes back, creating timeline 3.

Now then, a Trunks shows up in this timeline too, at the same point as he would have shown up in timeline 2. But, nothing in timeline 1 has happened by the time of his first trip to split it into timelines 1 and 4. It seems the soonest point it could split is when Trunks arrives back in his time, since one of them would have arrived in a time with Cell in it and one wouldn't, and that minute difference could change things.

So this is the problem. There would appear to only be 1 Trunks, the Trunks from timeline 1, who somehow, when he goes back in time for the first, ends up in timeline 2 and timeline 3 simultaneously.

Of course, a possible solution, and one that solves the timeline jumping the machine does, is the infinite dimensions theory. That there are already an infinite number of varying timelines, and that upon travelling through time, the machine and it's occupant are duplicated infinitely and each ends up in one of the various timelines, of which we are only explicitly made aware of 3.

This does sort of go against the cause and effect type of time travel apparently depicted though.

The way I see it, there is only one Future Trunks until Cell's time travel affects him, meaning T1 and T4 Future Trunks are one and the same until Bulma tells him about the farmer who found the second time machine. While T4 itself doesn't split off from T1 until Trunks arrives in the future with a ton of extra strength, that's technically when it starts becoming affected, since Future Trunks is a native of T1.

Trunks shows up in the timeline Cell went to because Cell used the time machine to go to the past of the timeline Trunks went to (again, this assumes the time machine has some method of distinguishing timelines, without which the entire story completely falls apart). So Trunks will still show up, only this time around, in Timeline 3 instead of Timeline 2. Does that help any? My head's starting to hurt. This is worse than the Terminator franchise, which I think I did a good job of analyzing on another forum. I like this kind of stuff.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:13 pm

I get what you're saying, it just doesn't seem like there is a second time around for timeline 1. I understand that you mean he went to timeline 2, and then later Cell's intervention caused him to end up in timeline 3 instead, but that's still just one trip ending up in two times because of an event that hasn't happened (which might well be possible with time travel, but it doesn't make sense to me).

His first trip lands in both timelines 2 and 3, either simultaneously or, as I think you're saying, one after the other? That after Cell's trip Trunks no longer ended up in timeline 2. Doesn't that mean it never happened or something? He has to still end up there somehow.

The infinite variations thing solves all the problems as far as I can see, but it's got "easy way out" written all over it, which isn't very entertaining.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:33 pm

johnboy1 wrote:...Are you sure?

Yes, as far as my own copy of the kanzenban goes, and I haven't heard that later editions corrected the mistake. Where did you hear that they had?

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:35 am

I heard that on some website. It may have been reputable. Or not. I can't remember. It was when the Kanzenban were brand new.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:21 pm

My copy of Kanzenban 23 is from the seventh print run, and Trunks still says "#19 and #20."

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:25 pm

It's just one of those things your hear around the net. I've heard it too. Also heard that a few other things we're changed too, like Vegeta's power reading against Reacoom (although I think that one's true).

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:32 pm

Yes, it was changed from 20,000 to 30,000 (but only after the first print run for some reason!).

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