Tien > Freeza?

Tenshinhan-san · Post by **Tenshinhan-san** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:45 pm

Claiming Tenshinhan didn't even hit 20,000 is just stupid. Do you really think with a pl that low (relatively) he would have been able to raise enough power to create several kikoho's powerfull enough to hold back second form Cell? It's called powerlevel inflation. By a certain time a previous power that was amazing at the time isn't that special anymore.

Even #16 and #18 who threw everything they had at Cell couldn't touch him, he walked right through their attacks.

If Tenshinhan's attack hit anyone below Cell's level, it would have f*cked them up, period! It would have obliterated Freeza, any form.

Besides raw power there's also a thing called battle strategy. Krillin would have murdered both Nappa and Freeza with his Kienzan if they hadn't dodged it. If he would have been smart enough to use a Taiyoken before he threw it he would have had it in the bag. Of course that would never happen because they are 'just' supporting characters, but possible all the same.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:05 pm

I love Ten, but the fact stands he only had as much power as needed to stall because of convenience to the plot. It took Gokû--a Saiyan alien with more potential than humans--six months to increase his power from 400 to 8000 at 10G he was used to. Ten had ten months on Kaiô's world, going from 1800-ish to a number we don't know of. Ten, pushing thirty, was likely beginning to hit his own limits, sure we don't know if he could still increase his ki or not, but it might be that he likely only strengthened it's resilance.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:56 pm

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Claiming Tenshinhan didn't even hit 20,000 is just stupid. Do you really think with a pl that low (relatively) he would have been able to raise enough power to create several kikoho's powerfull enough to hold back second form Cell? It's called powerlevel inflation. By a certain time a previous power that was amazing at the time isn't that special anymore.

It's possible. Krillin couldn't hurt Freeza when they were on Namek but I can easily bet that his Kienzan would've sliced Freeza in half had it connected properly or how the Taiyoken is going to hurt your eyes whether the guy who does t has a BP of 200 or a BP of 2,000,000. I think the same applied to Tenshinhan and his Shin Kikoho. While he's not really all that powerful in general, he has such mastery over his Kiai that he improved on the Kikoho, a Kiai style attack, and made into something that could keep him in the game for a little longer.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:07 am

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Claiming Tenshinhan didn't even hit 20,000 is just stupid. Do you really think with a pl that low (relatively) he would have been able to raise enough power to create several kikoho's powerfull enough to hold back second form Cell?

SSJ Kid Trunks is able to knock Majin Buu away, so....yes?

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:58 am

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Claiming Tenshinhan didn't even hit 20,000 is just stupid. Do you really think with a power level that low (relatively) he would have been able to raise enough power to create several kikoho's powerfull enough to hold back second form Cell? It's called powerlevel inflation. By a certain time a previous power that was amazing at the time isn't that special anymore.

Kikoho is a suicidal attack. Roshi clearly stated that it is more powerful than Kamehameha.

Tenshinhan-san · Post by **Tenshinhan-san** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:25 am

Yes, but you need a certain level to produce a blast strong enough to do damage/hold back an enemy of a considerably higher level.

Kikoho works a lot different than Kienzan and Taiyoken, it does rely on power whereas Taiyoken is simply a concentrated lightning flash and Kienzan works like a sword.

With a powerlevel of 20,000 it's insane to assume Tenshinhan could produce a blast having a power of in the millions!

Besides, didn't Toriyama once state in an interview that after the Freeza Saga, the human fighters were in fact in the millions in pl..? I've read it on several websites, one of them being the Tenshinhan Jinja I believe, a website with reliable information.

Besides that, with a powerlevel that low, Tenshinhan would never ever ever ever have been able to deflect a Majin Buu blast, kikoho or not, relatively weak Buu blast or not!

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:35 am

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Besides, didn't Toriyama once state in an interview that after the Freeza Saga, the human fighters were in fact in the millions in pl..? I've read it on several websites, one of them being the Tenshinhan Jinja I believe, a website with reliable information.

I very much doubt it, since I don't think AT's ever said anything in regards to power levels like that.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:51 am

It also makes Tien admitting that he can't be of any help quite odd. Basically your saying that when they show up to fight the androids, Tien is stronger than Freeza. He's incredibly amazed at Goku's Super Saiyan power when he transforms to fight #19, saying that Goku's power and his own are dimensions apart. Then when it comes time to train in the RoSaT, he declines, because he knows it'd just be a waste of time, despite apparently coming along in gargantuan leaps and bounds over the past few years.

Everything to me suggests it's the technique that allows him to do what he did to Cell. Ki techniques in general seem to put out more power than is put into them, and not much power is put into them in general, seeing as people can carry on fighting at the same pace after using them (sometimes they put more power into it, obviously). The Kikiho puts out far, far more power than general ki attacks, and it also uses a lot more power too. Goku and Tien were pretty equal in their match at the 22nd tournament (Goku probably a little stronger), but Tien's Kikoho would have killed Goku if it had hit him. And that wasn't a full power one.

And it was a Shin Kikoho that he used against Cell I believe, which would imply it was even greater. I find it pretty easy to believe that Tien could produce a Kikoho on that scale while being significantly weaker than Freeza.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:17 am

I think what you put into a ki blast is more or less what you get out. Kikoho is huge because, in its original form, it uses all your life force at once. Tenshinhan had to carefully leave himself enough just to survive. But then, trying to talk about spiritual power in a strict, conservation of energy sort of way probably isn't a good idea either.

Personally, I think Tenshinhan must have been above 20,000, at least. I still like to think he was around (or just behind) the base forms of the Saiyajin, but the level of work he would have to have put in to get that far would be immense. But would that be enough to fight Freeza? I dunno... He didn't seem very confident when Freeza showed up on Earth after all, and then trained on Earth for 3 years. Ehh...

Teclo · Post by **Teclo** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:30 am

One thing that DBZ seems to do is have stronger fighters fight way below their strength against weaker characters, with the consequence that unless they're doing the whole "Hahaha! Nothing you do will damage me!" thing, stronger characters may get thrown off temporarily by a weaker character's attack and weaker characters will survive things that they really shouldn't. Obviously, the shit will hit the fan sooner or later and the weaker guys will get taken out by the stronger one(s) but there's a lot of build-up to that point which often has the weaker guy getting a few good hits in, or at least not being instantly killed.

I can't think of a solid example off the top of my head, but it's the sort of thing where - to make up an example - Majin Buu would be putting out hits that knock SSJ Vegeta all of the place, but if Buu hits Chichi, she'll just go flying and get knocked out. In reality it would of course totally obliterate her. Again, this is inconsistent because if the plot calls for it, the weaker person will die from that hit.

It's just one of those inconsistencies that show up in shounen in general, not just DBZ. It's like how the characters can often move faster than light but if they're being chased by a normal person, will just run at a normal speed. For example, when Videl is first tailing Gohan he has to leap up onto the roof of a tower block to escape. In reality, he could just have ran away so quickly that he was invisible. Same goes for the "Oh no, I need a disguise to fight crime in" when in actual fact, he could take them all out in a split second without anyone seeing anything (or at best, just seeing a blur).

This kind of thing needs to be done in the sort of show where many of the characters end up being like gods. The established rules (things like power levels and the character's abilities) have to be put aside from time to time in order to let actual drama or entertainment take place. If not, every fight since Frieza would just be invisible and over in seconds. Think about it, if these guys can move that quickly, the whole fight would be sped up. A fight that would last for 3 hours amongst two equally stronger yet human-speed enemies would only last for seconds if they we doing their thing at near to the speed of light. Of course, then it would suck as entertainment.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:07 am

Oh the Gohan/Videl filler during that bit annoyed the crap out me. "Oh how will can I stop this girl following me?!" YOU CAN FLY YOU IDIOT.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:22 am

Teclo wrote:It's like how the characters can often move faster than light but if they're being chased by a normal person, will just run at a normal speed.

We've had threads on it before, but I don't think there's any solid evidence that the characters ever become faster than light. Especially not traveling speed, or they could get anywhere on Earth in less than a second.

I guess Gohan was more worried about being seen flying off, or vanishing into thin air while she was watching? But I guess filler doesn't have to make sense.

Teclo · Post by **Teclo** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:42 am

You're quite right - I should have said "moved so fast that you couldn't see them". They're obviously not moving as fast as light, as you say, they'd be able to get anywhere on earth almost instantly. But their movements certainly are considerably faster (potentially) than ours and so it doesn't make sense that they go fast of a little bit (to do that "mid-air clash" style of fighting, for example) but then spend 98% of the fight moving at a sluggish pace (by their standards). Realistically - OK, that's a funny word to use when talking about this stuff - the whole thing would be carried out at an incredible speed beyond our comprehension. However, that'd make for a truly terrible piece of entertainment.

Amigo Ten wrote:Oh the Gohan/Videl filler during that bit annoyed the crap out me. "Oh how will can I stop this girl following me?!" YOU CAN FLY YOU IDIOT.

Yeah but even in the manga you get a bit of that and he acts like his only "superpower" is to be able to jump really high.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:14 am

Teclo wrote:Think about it, if these guys can move that quickly, the whole fight would be sped up. A fight that would last for 3 hours amongst two equally stronger yet human-speed enemies would only last for seconds if they we doing their thing at near to the speed of light. Of course, then it would suck as entertainment.

The closer you get to lightspeed, the slower time moves. It would take seconds for them, but for the outside world, hours, days, months, even years could go by.

Teclo · Post by **Teclo** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:56 am

Rocketman wrote:
Teclo wrote:Think about it, if these guys can move that quickly, the whole fight would be sped up. A fight that would last for 3 hours amongst two equally stronger yet human-speed enemies would only last for seconds if they we doing their thing at near to the speed of light. Of course, then it would suck as entertainment.
The closer you get to lightspeed, the slower time moves. It would take seconds for them, but for the outside world, hours, days, months, even years could go by.

It's too late to bring real science into DB now.

But really, even if we did include that "rule" in DBZ, the fact remains that at most speeds between stationary and light speed, the quicker you move, the faster things get done (without any temporal de-synchronisation). It's established that the fighters can move too fast to be seen but they spend most of their time moving at normal human speeds. The same happens in all/most shounen that I've seen.

Anyway, this whole speed thing was just an example of how the "laws of shounen" change on a minute-by-minute basis just to (hopefully) keep it as entertaining as possible. If every fight happened at 10,000 miles an hour, it would be unwatchable. Actually, case in point (wait for the text part to finish, about 1:09):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN2wGgwwtQY

It actually makes me dizzy after a while. And that's still nowhere near their fastest.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:19 am

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Kikoho works a lot different than Kienzan and Taiyoken, it does rely on power whereas Taiyoken is simply a concentrated lightning flash and Kienzan works like a sword.

Kikoho is a Kiai-based technique and Kiai works much differently than a Kamehameha or something. The proof is in the pudding. Tenshinhan was able to hold Cell back for quite awhile.

Son_GokouSSJ4 · Post by **Son_GokouSSJ4** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:52 am

Kendamu wrote: It's possible. Krillin couldn't hurt Freeza when they were on Namek but I can easily bet that his Kienzan would've sliced Freeza in half had it connected properly

It did actually... But the guy somersaulted and only got his tail cut off, remember?

Anyways, about Tenshinhan, I really think that with the neo-kikoho he could have hurt Freeza...badly! But if it was something of a one-on-one fight, no KI attacks involved... I really have my doubts!

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:09 am

As for speed, didn't it take SSJ Gotenks tnearly half an hour to fly around the world however many times he did? He dashed off as soon as he fused, and then when he and Piccolo landed at the bottom, he only had a minute left. Which would also mean in took Piccolo half an hour to get from the lookout to Earth.

Tenshinhan-san · Post by **Tenshinhan-san** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:18 pm

Well, to each his own I guess. Until we ever hear Toriyama make an official statement or be asked about it in an interview it will be up in the air. One thinks Tenshinhan wouldn't even have been able to touch Freeza's first form, the other one thinks he would have had a decent chance at kicking Freeza's ass. I don't really have a problem with that, I do however, have a problem with people who claim Tenshinhan would have barely reach a powerlevel in the realms of 20,000. I could make a shitload long post about how I cannot comprehend that, but my excuse is me being to lazy.

To make an estimation though; I think Tenshinhan's power level is a bit lower than Goku's and Vegeta's base forms, but stronger than Gohan's and Trunks' base form. I base this mainly on the variation in dedication these guys have. Goku and Vegeta would be the most devoted and dedicated fighters in the DB universe, pushing themselves through extreme methods of training in order to get stronger. While Tenshinhan might not have trained in 400 G's of gravity or spent time in the RoSaT, his life still consists of training, just like with Goku and Vegeta.

Also, Tenshinhan may just have came up with amazing training methods who just didn't get any spotlights, because Tenshinhan isn's a main character anymore later in Z. Tenshinhan, with his split form could have done a variety of very effective training methods. Also, Tenshinhan always has had a training partner with Chiaotzu, who himself has mastery of some very rare techniques (ESP for example).

So yeah, I definitely can see Tenshinhan reaching an extremely high powerlevel. Not being a Saiyan doesn't limit ones ability to grow, it just requires more work/a different approach.

One point I would still like to add though is this one. At first, #19 and #20 mistook Yamcha for Goku. It's quite obvious that Yamcha isn't nearly as strong as Tenshinhan, yet he was mistaken for freakin Goku!! The human fighters are a LOT stronger than many give them credit for.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:02 pm

I don't think Yamcha was actually mistaken for Goku as such. They were just looking for Goku, and the detected someone who surpassed human parameters, so they assumed it was Goku.

I suppose that is being mistaken... But my point was that they didn't think it was Goku because he matched some ridiculously high power chart that they had for Goku or something. It wasn't a case of "The energy reading matches that of Son Goku", and when they found out it wasn't Goku they weren't like "But his power is so high!" and stuff.

I very much doubt I'm explaining it well, but that scene never suggested Yamcha was amazingly strong to me. Further more, later on #20 says that they had achieved a perfect understanding of Goku's power by the time of his fight Vegeta, and they calculated that Goku would not be able to get much stronger than that because of his age. He was what then, 8'000? More because of Kaioken, I know, but still not that much relatively speaking. If Yamcha had been much higher than that the androids would have been stunned rather than just assuming it was Goku.

I'd say that puts Yamcha around the 20-30'000 mark at most. Tien's usually a bit stronger, and had more time at Kaio's, but I don't expect there would be a massive difference. He just managed to create an attack millions of times stronger than he was, that's all. >_>

Kanzenshuu

Tien > Freeza?

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