How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

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How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Travis Touchdown » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:15 am

I know that's treking into "fillerspace" as the manga has no references to the Tuffles and we're led to believe the Saiyans are native to Vegeta.

But as far as the anime goes I was curious. Out of all of the guides published and whatnot, is it ever said how long the Saiyans lived peacefully among the Tuffles before they started warring with each other? A few months, years, even centuries?
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Bussani » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:20 am

I think the Daizenshuu actually claim that the Saiyans moved in to planet Vegeta from their original home world, wiping out the Tuffles in the process. I don't recall the exact number, but they were only on the planet for a handful of years (less than a decade, I think it was) before Freeza blew it up. So uh, probably not long if you go by that.

If you go by the anime filler instead, I have no idea. Didn't the filler say how rare full moons were? I guess the 'peace' would have lasted however long it took for a full moon to appear.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Eddie » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:26 am

Somehow I doubt that the Saiyans & Tuffles ever got together for a nice cup of tea. From what I remember, I don't believe they lived peacefully at all. I think it stated in the anime that they were fighting prior to the full moon, & the moon led to a swift victory for the Saiyans.

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by dragondyle » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:16 am

Didn't the anime just say one day they decided to attack for no reason?
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Herms » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:33 pm

From the GT Perfect Files timeline:
C. Age 550: The primeval Saiya-jin drift to Planet Plant!!
The primeval Saiya-jin drift on their spaceship to the bountiful Planet Plant, where science had flourished in peace. Reproducing quickly, in the next few hundred years the primeval Saiya-jin evolve to an extraordinary extent and gain intelligence. But at the same time, their instincts for slaughter grew as well.
[picture caption ] The Tsufuru-jin approve of the Saiya-jins’ residency, but…

C. Age 720~730: All-out confrontation between the Saiya-jin and Tsufuru-jin!!
The all-out war between the Saiya-jin and Tsufuru-jin begins. Cornered, the Tsufuru-jin use their remaining scientific power to develop a parasitic life-form (later to be known as Baby). This life-form inherits the genes of King Tsufuru, and is launched into space. The battle results in the Saiya-jins’ overwhelming victory, the Tsufuru-jin are wiped out, and Planet Plant is renamed as Planet Vegeta.
Bussani wrote:I think the Daizenshuu actually claim that the Saiyans moved in to planet Vegeta from their original home world, wiping out the Tuffles in the process.
Well, that's mentioned in the OVA and later GT. The daizenshuu that cover the anime repeat it, but it's not something mentioned in the manga-only daizenshuu.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Krazy Monkey » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:55 pm

Yeah, there's quite a bit of inconsistencies with this story. One minute, they're saying that the Saiyans always lived on that planet alongside the Tuffles, and the next, they're saying that the Saiyans originated from another planet and just suddenly decided to take over Planet Plant, just as they've done with many other planets. There's also a contradiction, where according to Dr. Raichi in Plan to Eliminate the Saiyans (or whatever it was called), the Saiyans lived together in peace with the Tuffles, and suddenly attacked them out of nowhere. According to Vegeta in that same movie, however, the Tuffles mistreated and enslaved the Saiyans, which caused them to rise up against them in the first place.
Last edited by Krazy Monkey on Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Herms » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:05 pm

Krazy Monkey wrote:One minute, they're saying that the Saiyans always lived on that planet alongside the Tuffles, and the next, they're saying that the Saiyans originated from another planet and just suddenly decided to take over Plant Plant, just as they've done with many other planets.
I don't believe they ever actually say in the original filler episode that the Saiyans had always lived there.

Anyway, we know Toriyama came up with most of the Saiyan/Tsufuru backstory seen in Kaio's story early in Z (basically everything minus Planet Vegeta's god destroying the planet with a comet), since the memo he gave the anime staff detailing the backstory has been printed in a few of the guidebooks, but I don't believe he had any hand in Plan to Exterminate the Saiyans, so he probably didn't have anything to do with the whole "Saiyans as invaders to Planet Plant" backstory.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by yunzabit » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:04 pm

I pictured Saiyans and Tuffles always living on the same planet. The Tuffle/Saiyan confrontation seemed like a reversal of the Homo Sapien/Neanderthal confrontation. The Saiyans (Neanderthals) who won continued their predatory nature, depleting their resources causing them to work for Freeza, instead of the Tuffle's (Homo Sapiens) hunter-gatherer sustainability.

So in my mind, I would say that Saiyans and Tuffles lived peacefully for millions of years until Tuffle expansion entered Saiyan territiory, or vice versa.

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by SaiyaMel » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:07 pm

In the special "Plan to exterminate the Saiyans" - it shows Saiyans arriving on Plant in a huge old spaceship (this is mentioned in the Daizenshuu timeline); in GT it shows them coming in spacepods.. I'm willing to believe they arrived by both means, and migrated to Plant in waves rather than coming there all at once...

In the "OVA", it also shows the Saiyans and Tsufuls sort of getting along for a while - eventually ending in the Saiyans stabbing them in the back and turning on them.

@Herms
Do you have a translation of the part that talks about the Saiyans coming originally from Planet Saiya?
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:07 pm

Not that I ever gave too much thought to this (as I haven't seen much of the GT stuff that dealt with this minor plot point, nor was I aware until recently that Toriyama had a hand in producing that backstory), but I was always under the impression that it took time for expansion to happen. I believe Kaio states that the Saiya-jin were small in number compared to the Tsufru-jin. If we might assume the two races originally occupied different areas of the planet, colonial expansion and development might have taken centuries without the two ever coming into contact with one another. From that point, it might have been possible that the Saiya-jin were aware that the Tsufru-jin, with their advanced technology, would be a considerable threat to fight against and therefore waited until their numbers had become substantial enough and had developed enough of a plan to risk an invasion.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by SaiyaMel » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:17 pm

Posted on my board -
ParAq wrote:This is from the Official DBZ timeline - which is from the Daizenshuu, broken down into sections relevant to the Saiya. It is for reference only.

Source

Approximately 238 B.C.
The Legendary Super Saiya-jin appears and wreaks havoc across the Universe.

Approximately 550 A.D.
The first Saiya-jin land on the planet Plant in a mysterious ship.

720-730 A.D.
* The Saiya-jin unite and begin a war against the Tsufuru-jin for control of the planet Plant.
* The Tsufuru scientist Dr. Raichi is killed.
* The Tsufuru-jin are completely destroyed by the Saiya-jin. The Saiya-jin take control of the planet and re-name it Vegita. They adapt Tsufuru technology.
* The Saiya-jin begin space travel and meet aliens from other planets.

731 A.D.
* The Saiya-jin begin their partnership with Freeza and start conquering planets for sale.
* King Vegita marries his queen.

732 A.D.
The birth of Prince Vegita.

Around 735:
-Relations between the Saiyans and Freeza break down.
-Civil war breaks out among the Saiyans on Planet Vegeta.

737:
-Birth of Kakarotto (Songoku).
-One of the armies of Vegeta conquer the planets Kanassa and Meat. Freeza suppresses the revolt against him formed by King Vegeta.
-Freeza declares war on the Saiyans.
-Bardock, the father of Kakarotto, dies in combat.
-Freeza annihilates planet Vegeta.
-Kakarotto escapes the destruction via a Saiyan capsule that lands on Earth.
-Between June and August, Kakarotto is found by Son Gohan who renames him "Son Goku."

738:
At the age of one, Goku dangerously wounds himself in the head. His natural Saiyan characteristics are lost and later replaced by a gentle personality.

October-November 760:
-Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta conquer planet Shirts.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Maphisto86 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:16 pm

I never was a fan of the idea that the Saiyan's reign over Planet Vegeta and their part in the planet trade was so short. Then again nothing in the original manga suggests how long this was the case or whether the Saiyans where originaly alien to Planet Plant/Vegeta. I wonder if Akira Toriyama actually posited the timeline himself for the Daizenshuu. It's the only official word I can recall on the subject. I guess Freeza and King Vegeta's working relationship was even worse then we imagined. :shock:

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:56 am

Herms wrote:
Krazy Monkey wrote:One minute, they're saying that the Saiyans always lived on that planet alongside the Tuffles, and the next, they're saying that the Saiyans originated from another planet and just suddenly decided to take over Plant Plant, just as they've done with many other planets.
I don't believe they ever actually say in the original filler episode that the Saiyans had always lived there.

Anyway, we know Toriyama came up with most of the Saiyan/Tsufuru backstory seen in Kaio's story early in Z (basically everything minus Planet Vegeta's god destroying the planet with a comet), since the memo he gave the anime staff detailing the backstory has been printed in a few of the guidebooks, but I don't believe he had any hand in Plan to Exterminate the Saiyans, so he probably didn't have anything to do with the whole "Saiyans as invaders to Planet Plant" backstory.
So there is no metion of the Tsufuru in the manga, but Toriyama came up with the idea which then makes it canon?

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Bussani » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:41 am

Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:So there is no metion of the Tsufuru in the manga, but Toriyama came up with the idea which then makes it canon?
There isn't an absolute rule that says something is or isn't canon (except that something that happens in the manga is canon to the manga, which is obvious); but since it's something that doesn't affect the plot, it doesn't really matter if it is or isn't. It's just interesting to point out, and since it doesn't contradict anything, you could consider it canon if you wanted to.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:17 pm

Things like this do open into the intracacies of canon. For example, does the inclusion of the Bardock panel in the manga mean that Toriyama fully incorporates that whole storyline into canon including his precognition and teammates, or simply that Goku's father defied Freeza right before he destroyed Planet Vegeta? Likewise, in other filler that Toriyama provided a basic concept for that Toei then took the concept and ran with it, can the final product be considered canon even if it's divergent? Interesting things to think about it...
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Bussani » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:46 pm

It depends what you're talking about when you say 'canon'. It refers to a body of works that relate to each other. So if you're talking about manga canon and being very strict about it, I suppose only things revealed in the manga itself count. You could assume that the Bardock special happened from that one panel, but you can't say with 100% certainty that it did; like you implied, it could just be a similar story, rather than the exact one. In other words, just because something could be canon to something else, doesn't mean that it has to be.

Generally, when talking about canon around here, we seem to be talking about Toriyama-canon: this includes the manga and anything Toriyama says in interviews. Which makes sense, really. I mean, anyone can make their own little personal canon of what they think 'officially happens' in the story, but it's only really Toriyama's opinion that would make a difference to it. Of course, since Dragon Ball is over, it doesn't matter as much. New information isn't likely to come along and prove you wrong, so you can probably believe whatever you want. Especially if it's something that doesn't change anything, like this whole Tuffles thing.

As I said above, canon probably matters more when the story is still being written, and matters most to the writers themselves. They need to know what they consider to be the actual events that happened so they don't contradict themselves and make plot holes. For an ongoing series, we'd want to figure out what is definitely canon to try to guess what might happen next. For instance, in a One Piece example, Zoro cut through steel in a filler episode, but then later in the manga we find out he can't cut through steel. If we'd taken the filler as canon from the author's point of view, that would have been an inconsistency. In fiction, consistency is more important than logic; if the author shows that something can or can't be done and then goes against that, then you lose your suspension of disbelief a bit and feel like you've been deceived.

Sorry for this tangent. I always end up writing too much when trying to explain this.
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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:43 am

Bussani wrote:
Piccolo Daimaoh wrote:So there is no metion of the Tsufuru in the manga, but Toriyama came up with the idea which then makes it canon?
There isn't an absolute rule that says something is or isn't canon (except that something that happens in the manga is canon to the manga, which is obvious); but since it's something that doesn't affect the plot, it doesn't really matter if it is or isn't. It's just interesting to point out, and since it doesn't contradict anything, you could consider it canon if you wanted to.
I consider it canon because as you said, it doesn't contradict anything and gives us some nice Saiyan backstory :P

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Savage68 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:57 am

But that isn't how canon works, bro.

There's no point in holding a 'personal canon', when the fact is that the 'universal canon' is only the manga itself. Just because it doesn't have blaring plotholes doesn't mean it's okay to view it in the same light as the manga.

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:48 am

I don't like the 'Saiyans arrived at planet Tuffle on spaceships' because it adds a completely unnecessary layer to the backstory. It doesn't explain the Saiyan origin, it just moves it to some other planet with 10x Earth's gravity, and then it adds on more oddities in how the Saiyans even got ahold of a spaceship or knew how to fly it if they were still in the caveman era.

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Re: How long did the Saiyans live peacefully with the Tuffles?

Post by Piccolo Daimaoh » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:44 am

Savage68 wrote:But that isn't how canon works, bro.

There's no point in holding a 'personal canon', when the fact is that the 'universal canon' is only the manga itself. Just because it doesn't have blaring plotholes doesn't mean it's okay to view it in the same light as the manga.
I know but there is also Anime canon and Manga canon. The story of the Tsufuru fits comfortably into Anime canon.

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