How powerful do you think Supreme Kai really was?

[Vegeta Jr]

I think I would place him slightly weaker than Dabura, he seemed a little scared at Dabura's presence but what do you guys think.

I was always dissapointed we never get to him him fight, he's supposed to be the supreme ruler of the universe.

[Savage68]

Oh boy. I don't think this'll end well.

Anyway, some guys think he's weaker than base Saiyans. Some guys think he's weaker than Piccolo. I think he's stronger than both (essspecially the base Saiyans), the latter being the most obvious in the story.

Obviously he was weaker than Dabura, but the man had the power to immobilize a SSJ2. That has to count for a lot.

[Vegeta Jr]

Gohan SSJ2 in the Babidi saga was much weaker than Gohan SSJ2 in the Cell games though, this is especially obvious when it is stated Dabura = Cell in terms of power.

[Savage68]

Goku retracted that statement later. Dabura was stronger than Cell, though some people say that magic was what made Dabura a more powerful person. ¬_¬

I know SSJ2 teen Gohan was the weakest SSJ2 in the series, but he's still far above any (non-fused) SSJ1.

[hleV]

Supreme Kai was annoying.

[Vegeta Jr]

He was underused that's all, I found his character interesting but didn't really amass to anything.

[smiley]

Dimensions ahead of Piccolo, strong enough to defeat Freeza in one blow, and scared of Yakon who base Goku could keep up against. That's what the manga tells us. His level is actually pretty well-defined. Some people choose to ignore most of these, though.

[Savage68]

Some people choose to ignore most of these, though.

I don't think it's a matter of ignoring anything, they just don't believe it was the case.

Like me, for instance.

[Vegeta Jr]

Couldn't Supreme Kai be scared of Yakon because he's tricky to fight as it was pitch black rather than outclassed in power level?

[Savage68]

Couldn't Supreme Kai be scared of Yakon because he's tricky to fight as it was pitch black rather than outclassed in power level?

Pretty much, going by the manga. For however little it's worth in this discussion, I think the Daiz says he was actually scared of Yakon. Oh well.

He didn't know how powerful the (heavily suppressed) base Goku was yet, he knew of Yakon by reputation (recognized him and called his name out immediately), and didn't want Buu to receive any energy at all. He was also wary of Buu awakening by the battles, even if he wasn't going to be at full-power.

I just cannot see someone that fared nearly as well as SSJ/SSJ2 Gohan against an indiscriminate Fat Buu still being weaker than base Saiyans and especially Piccolo. The whole fiasco in Babidi's ship (actually, when the Z-Fighters first land) was a mess, though. I swear it takes a dump on my brain every time I read it.

Even if I was of the mind that he's weaker than Yakon/base Goku, later actions seem to contradict that (vs. Buu). The idea of base Saiyans being stronger than Kaioshin, who's much stronger than Piccolo also puts the Saiyans on par with Perfect Cell, in their base forms. And that's just nuts.

[Vegeta Jr]

I think Supreme Kai's unrational fears prop up because he's afraid of the energy it would give to Buu, not that he is outclassed. Didn't he actually fight Kid Buu and survive, I know he was severely losing but it's not like he was killed in a few hits either. He fared just as well as SSJ2 Vegeta did.

[Ultimate_DB_Fan]

Not to derail the topic into another direction, but am I the only one that finds Yakon's appearance similar to the Cloverfield creature? Same arms, tail, etc.

[Savage68]

I think Supreme Kai's unrational fears prop up because he's afraid of the energy it would give to Buu, not that he is outclassed. Didn't he actually fight Kid Buu and survive, I know he was severely losing but it's not like he was killed in a few hits either. He fared just as well as SSJ2 Vegeta did.

We never see Kaioshin fight canonically with Kid Buu. We know that he got beat within an inch of his life, but that doesn't mean much since Kid Buu toys around with people.

[SonEric84]

We never see Kaioshin fight canonically with Kid Buu. We know that he got beat within an inch of his life, but that doesn't mean much since Kid Buu toys around with people.

Yeah, especially since base form Vegeta went up against him and wasn't killed, so it would be hard to say for sure.

[Kiyza]

Dimensions ahead of Piccolo, strong enough to defeat Freeza in one blow, and scared of Yakon who base Goku could keep up against. That's what the manga tells us. His level is actually pretty well-defined. Some people choose to ignore most of these, though.

Dimensions ahead of Piccolo yet scared of Yakon? That sounds a little bit strange to me. In all honesty, I think he was slightly under Piccolo, but Piccolo was somewhat indimidated by him because he's Kaioshin and all. Of course, I've never been much one for these strength discussions anyway.

[Savage68]

Dimensions ahead of Piccolo yet scared of Yakon?

It was stated by Piccolo that Kaioshin's power was dimensions apart from his own, and I already explained the Yakon deal.

[Silver Sinspawn]

Piccolo could always be wrong.

[Savage68]

He could be wrong based on what? You can't just say he could be wrong with no reason to think so.

[rereboy]

To me his strength is a plothole.

The way I rationalize it is by assuming that he was about the same level as Piccolo or weaker than him but Piccolo, due to his high godly nature and because he was hiding his ki, just assumed he was way beyond him.

He manages to immobilize SSJ2 Gohan and slightly phase out Fat Buu with special techniques of his that aren`t really indicative of his power (just like Kienzan isn`t indicative of Krillin`s power) and that`s pretty much all we see of his fighting. We don`t really see him fighting someone "fist to fist".

And by thinking this way I understand why he doesn`t want to underestimate Babidi`s minions who were powered up by his magic and who already had a frightening reputation prior to that power up, why he is so amazed by Goku and the others and why he could kill Freeza in one blow (since Piccolo could probably do it too by then).

But like I said, its a plothole. My explanation is just the best way I came up with to rationalize it and which made most sense.

[Dayspring]

I don't think he's weak or a plothole at all, so much as his skill are completely unbalanced.

Over all, it's exactly like Piccolo said: dimensions beyond our Namekkian hero. But breaking it down, it seems all his strength comes from his spiritual side, not his physical.

Back in the Saiyan saga against Nappa and in the Namek saga against Jeice and Burta, Goku shows that using one's kiai to block attacks and overtake opponents is a sign of ridiculously high power. Kaioshin manages to use his to hold down SSJ2 Gohan and hurt/piss off Fat Majin Boo. This tells us that in regards to ki manipulation and raw power, he easily dwarfs the SSJ2s.

Meanwhile, he's not at all worried about fighting Piccolo, who thinks he's only the Dai Kaio when he drops out because of how they're 'dimensions apart.' Piccolo's such a smart fighter that he even gets assimilated by Boo just for his intelligence; he'd know how to rely solely on his strength and speed to overtake someone like Kaioshin, if it were at all possible. This tells us that in regards to physical strength and speed, he's about equal to Piccolo. Could be stronger, could be weaker, but the gap won't be greater than 100% Freeza vs SSJ Goku, so it's not worth the fight since Kaioshin's ki manipulation greatly surpasses Piccolo's. EX:

Piccolo:
-Strength = 120
-Speed = 100
-Ki manipulation = 100
-Total = 320

Kaioshin:
-Strength = 100
-Speed = 120
Ki manipulation = 1,000,000,000
-Total: 1,000,000,220

See how they're different dimensions now, despite him later being physically weaker than SSJ Gohan?

Another thing to note is that no matter how you slice it, Freeza is nothing compared to him. So saying any weak SOB could take him is not fair at all, as the strongest being in the Universe is an ant compared to him. However, despite being spiritually stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, the fact that SSJ Gohan removed the Z-Sword when he can't shows us he's nowhere near Cell's league in regards to physical strength. Meanwhile, SSJ Gohan earlier yanked Kaioshin out of the fight to try and escape Boo, so we know SSJ Gohan is faster than him, too.

So from a purely physical aspect, he's somewhere between Freeza and Cell, probably in the same league as Piccolo, meaning at least stronger and faster than #17. But from a purely spititual aspect, he's somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3. Taking an 'overall' look at him is what gets us arguing, as the best comparison would be to take Guldo and compare him to the rest of the Ginyu force, if Guldo were stronger than #17.