Who is Stronger Questions

[Vegeta Jr]

That line about having Gohan wouldn't help is ridiculous, Goku states at full power SSJ 3 he would have no problem against Kid Buu. We know for a fact that Gohan with his unlocked potential is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, in fact if I remember rightly Gotenks SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ3 Goku which means the Trunks and Goten line is false also.

[rereboy]

- Why didn`t they (Goku or Kibitoshin) go back to Earth to get Gohan and Gotenks to help on the fight, if they could still use the Genki Dama plan with them on Kaioshin`s planet and it wouldn`t take more than a few seconds of teleportation to get them there?

I didn't actually understood your question. Are you asking why they didn't bring Gohan and Gotenks, and still use the Genki-Dama? If that is the case then I don't see the point in the question at all.

- Why wouldn`t the combined Ki of Mystic Gohan and (SSJ3) Gotenks be enough to destroy Kid Buu if moments ago Goku stated that he could gather enough Ki on his own to be able to destroy Kid Buu?

Are you actually proposing, for example, if Piccolo would give his ki to a Genki-Dama at the time he fought Raditz he would give plus 1,300 or whatever the actual battle power is while performing the Makankosappo?

I told you that these plot points of the manga (that you brought up with those quotes of the manga) existed only because of plot convenience and build up to the finale.

I said this because:
- there is absolutely no reason for not going to Earth (either Goku or Kibitoshin) get Gohan and the kids, especially since it wouldn`t even conflict with their Genki Dama plan and it would only take a few seconds
- and because the concentrated energy generated by Mystic Gohan AND SSJ3 Gotenks is certainly superior to the concentrated energy of SSJ3 Goku (or otherwise SSJ3 Goku would potentially be more powerful than them both put together), so there is absolutely no reason for needing the energy of the entire population of Earth, since moments ago Goku stated that he would be able to destroy Kid Buu if he gathered enough energy. So, the Genki Dama would only need the energy of Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks to kill Kid Buu.

This didn`t happen on the manga solely because of plot convenience. That was what I said and then you asked if "I was for real".

If you can give me another explanation that makes sense other than plot convenience I`m listening. That was what I asked of you in my last post.

Regarding your other quotes I already answered.

[Senzu_Bean]

That line about having Gohan wouldn't help is ridiculous...

If anything is ridiculous in here is you. Do you realize the difference between an attack with ki gathered on its limits and just your own ki?

- there is absolutely no reason for not going to Earth (either Goku or Kibitoshin) get Gohan and the kids, especially since it wouldn`t even conflict with their Genki Dama plan and it would only take a few seconds

That is answered in the manga. Vegeta wanted Earth's population for once help defeating a monster that is threatening them.

- and because the concentrated energy generated by Mystic Gohan AND SSJ3 Gotenks is certainly superior to the concentrated energy of SSJ3 Goku

Gohan didn't give his "concentrate energy" to the Genki Dama so your point is irrelevant.

[Vegeta Jr]

If anything is ridiculous in here is you. Do you realize the difference between an attack with ki gathered on its limits and just your own ki?

Seriously what?

Gohan was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, this is a fact shown in the manga by having Gohan completely outclass Super Buu; A being Goku stated he was afraid of fighting because he would most likely be killed, Gotenks' is on equal power with Super Buu again Goku was not. So in power terms it goes Gohan > Gotenks > Goku

If we are to take in account Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu (which has been showcased in this very thread), then we can easily decipher that Gohan would obliterate Kid Buu on his own without the need of concentrating one attack.

I'm not arguing for/against Gohan giving his energy to the Genki Dama, I'm saying Gohan being there would be enough to kill Buu WITHOUT the Genki Dama. The quote posted about Gohan and Gotenks' wouldn't help is obviously factually wrong.

[Senzu_Bean]

If anything is ridiculous in here is you. Do you realize the difference between an attack with ki gathered on its limits and just your own ki?

Seriously what?

Gohan was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, this is a fact shown in the manga by having Gohan completely outclass Super Buu; A being Goku stated he was afraid of fighting because he would most likely be killed, Gotenks' is on equal power with Super Buu again Goku was not. So in power terms it goes Gohan > Gotenks > Goku

If we are to take in account Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu (which has been showcased in this very thread), then we can easily decipher that Gohan would obliterate Kid Buu on his own without the need of concentrating one attack.

You show a lack of knowledge of what you saying that isn't even funny. I guess you believe Piccolo was stronger than Raditz too, when they fought?

The quote posted about Gohan and Gotenks' wouldn't help is obviously factually wrong.

[Vegeta Jr]

And you are needlessly flaming and going off topic.

Gohan on his own would obliterate Kid Buu, that is all I am saying. Maybe it's you who needs to take what I am talking about in context before insulting my intelligence. -_-

Piccolo was obviously weaker than Raditz, what is your point?

So let me get this straight, you believe Kid Buu could kill Gohan?

[Senzu_Bean]

Gohan on his own would obliterate Kid Buu, that is all I am saying.

Of course he would. Goku could do that too if wasn't for that SSJ3 downside and he is countless times weaker than him.

Piccolo was obviously weaker than Raditz, what is your point?

That you don't know what you're talking about.

So let me get this straight, you believe Kid Buu could kill Gohan?

Yep, he could. Easily actually.

[Vegeta Jr]

I have proof, that's exactly what I have been posting.

Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu, Goku says so himself. He has no worries fighting Kid Buu and states full power SSJ3 would obliterate Kid Buu. He earlier said he was afraid to fight Super Buu out of fear or death.

Hence Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.

We see Gohan clearly outclass Super Buu thus Gohan vastly outmatches the weaker Kid Buu.

[Senzu_Bean]

I have proof, that's exactly what I have been posting.

Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu, Goku says so himself. He has no worries fighting Kid Buu and states full power SSJ3 would obliterate Kid Buu. He earlier said he was afraid to fight Super Buu out of fear or death.

Hence Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.

We see Gohan clearly outclass Super Buu thus Gohan vastly outmatches the weaker Kid Buu.

This:

2- The old fans that have everything numbered, organized, etc. in their heads and no matter how wrong they're they don't take new facts as true. Like the SSJ multipliers.

[Kaboom]

And you are needlessly flaming and going off topic.

I agree. Everyone has long since made their points to varying degrees of success. I'd hate to have to lock another one of your threads, Questrider. But this is going downhill fast.

Come on, everyone. Even if we don't agree, let's all try to be open-minded and respectful towards each other, okay?

[Xyex]

... because some random obnoxious guy from an on-the-whole obnoxious forum that no longer exists thought he was better than me?

Wait! I don't know nor care each of you is better (whatever that means) and I too don't know what that has anything to do with the fact he is/was right and you are wrong.

I swear I don't understand... when this kind of attitude continue to persist on Dragonball community definitely debates like this won't be able to accomplish anything.

Except the problem is that neither you or anyone from MFG has every refuted the notion of Kid Buu being weaker than Super Buu. You toss out a few things as evidence but so far all of them have been shown not to work via statements of fact given in the series. You then just repeat your now disproven claim as fact and ignore the fact it's been disproven. Which you've continued to do in this thread.

Going to try and bring some new arguments to the table...
But first:
I really want to go back to the scene where Buff Buu becomes Kid Buu since I have a few things to add.
Again, Vegeta states: Look at our little friend.
Goku: Yeah, we can take him.

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)
He went from being tall, to buff, to SMALL. Does a taller person SEEM more menacing? Yes.
After all, Freeza was similarly misinterpreted when he took his final form. Piccolo told the kids: Don’t underestimate his appearance.

While Buu's transformation is in progress:
Goku: Uh, Vegeta, isn’t his chi getting bigger?

WHEN do they ever say Kid Buu’s power level EVER went down?

Maybe it's just me, but I never assumed they were joking about Buu's physical size in that scene. Yes, Buu had gotten smaller physically, but considering that characters do not judge power by physical size but by the size of their ki it's always seemed rather... obvious to me that Vegeta was referring to Buu's power there. Not his physical size.

So in answer to your question of when did they say his power level went down: When Vegeta said "Look at our little friend." because he was referring to the size of his power, not the size of his body.

Goku was standing his ground against Kid Buu one on one. And Kid Buu was also standing his ground against Goku one on one, so their power was similar or approximate.

Untrue. I shall quote Vegeta and Goku themselves:

Vegeta: It’s just like you thought. That Boo turned out to be stronger than we imagined…Both you Kakarotto, and me…

Vegeta: Don’t hold back for me, and go finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo if you gather your ki to the limits…!
Goku: A…ah…I’ve been thinking of doing that for awhile now, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.
Vegeta: Eh?
Goku: If I’m going to wipe him out, I need to gather ki for about a minute~~
Vegeta: One minute!?
Goku: Dammit~~~~If we had the Potara, we could doe him in with one blast….Chih~~~Maybe I showed off too much~~~But I thought things would go a little better…!
Vegeta: …S…So you weren’t concerned about me…
Goku: That bastard…Even though he can return to normal right away, he’s enjoying himself by purposefully taking his time…

Oh boy. Well, let's break this apart, shall we?

There isn't a single line in the above that indicates that Buu is a ton stronger than Goku. Maybe slightly stronger, as already outlined in my power scaling. But stronger than Super Buu who's stronger than Goku to the point that Goku is SCARED of fighting him? No. Don't worry, I'm going to break it down a little more to explain why.

- Vegeta's first line: He's admitting that Kid Buu is stronger than they assumed. This does not mean that he has to be stronger than Super Buu. All that it means is that he's stronger than what level they had thought he was at. And given their reaction to his emergence, that was likely around Fat Buu's level.

- Vegeta and Goku's exchange is also quite simple and straight forward. Vegeta, who previously sensed SSJ3 Goku's power when he fought Fat Buu, directly states that if Goku were to use that full power and generate the strongest blast he could, he could wipe out Kid Buu. Goku then says he's been wanting to but hasn't gotten the time to do so. In part because he showed off a little too much and in part because Buu is putting up more fight than he expected.

And I shall give you all a little bonus:

Goku: Oh, I get it! You were thinking of bring Gohan, Gotenks, and the rest back to life and having them fight for us.

Goku: Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo!! What are you doing?!! Hardly anyone except our friends are giving us their ki!!

If these last two quotes don't clearly show Kid Buu is stronger than everybody alive at the time then I don't know what can... I know, but I'm not going to post right way.

Thanks to Herms for all these translations.

Say what? How do the last two quotes show that he's stronger than everyone alive at the time? They quite clearly do the exact opposite. Goku not only expects Vegeta to have Gohan or Gotenks come and kill Buu but he's relieved by it and thinks it's a great idea. Why would this be so if they were weaker than Kid Buu? It wouldn't It's only so because they are much stronger than him.

And how the hell is the last line supposed to imply the others are weaker than Buu? Gohan and the rest didn't give up all of their energy. They weren't even remotely winded. Hell, they still flew all over the planet to convince people to give their energy. So even ignoring the likely fact that ki is not the same as the energy given for the Spirit Bomb (and thus being possible that Gohan's 'genki' alone isn't greater than even Fat Buu's ki level) Gohan and the rest clearly only gave a fraction of their power.

When Goku states that Kid Buu is the strongest/toughest opponent he has ever faced, is that not enough proof to conclude which incarnation of Buu is strongest?

First of all, this line is a Toei creation. It's no in the manga. Second of all, Goku never faced Super Buu. Kid Buu is stronger and tougher than Fat Buu, who is the only version of Buu that GOKU has ever faced. Goku is not Vegetto. Goku did not face Super Buu or Super Buu 3. He only faced Fat Buu. So even if you do include the line (which you shouldn't, because it's a Toei addition) it still doesn't make Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu.

No! Are you suggesting Piccolo or Goku weren't fighting Raditz at full-power?

What does Raditz have to do with this?

That line about having Gohan wouldn't help is ridiculous, Goku states at full power SSJ 3 he would have no problem against Kid Buu. We know for a fact that Gohan with his unlocked potential is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku, in fact if I remember rightly Gotenks SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ3 Goku which means the Trunks and Goten line is false also.

Yeah. If SSJ3 Goku is a 10, then Super Buu is easily a 13, SSJ3 Gotenks is, at least, a 12, and Ultimate Gohan is, like, 20. Kid Buu is, at best, an 11.

So let me get this straight, you believe Kid Buu could kill Gohan?

Yep, he could. Easily actually.

Umm, no. That's impossible. Gohan is a lot stronger than Kid Buu. How do we know this? Because he's a lot stronger than SSJ3 Goku who was shown to be almost even with Kid Buu.

Explain to me something. If Super Buu could have easily killed Goku, as stated by Goku himself, why was it that Goku thought he could beat Kid Buu, even after fighting him for a while and realizing just how strong he was?

I have proof, that's exactly what I have been posting.

Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu, Goku says so himself. He has no worries fighting Kid Buu and states full power SSJ3 would obliterate Kid Buu. He earlier said he was afraid to fight Super Buu out of fear or death.

Hence Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.

We see Gohan clearly outclass Super Buu thus Gohan vastly outmatches the weaker Kid Buu.

This:

2- The old fans that have everything numbered, organized, etc. in their heads and no matter how wrong they're they don't take new facts as true. Like the SSJ multipliers.

I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that it applies more to you. I know I, for one, have had my opinions changed on a lot of things pertaining to the series. Debates come up, people present logical arguments with sufficient evidence to support it and convince me that they are right. It's happened, more than once, on more than one point. So far, however, all that you have done is insult other members, state that you are right while ignoring information presented to you to the contrary, and constantly repeat the same things over and over again even after they've been refuted. If you want to actually convince anyone here that your view is right you need to make a solid argument for it. Not constantly spout off insults and unrelated information.

All you're doing right now is making yourself look bad.

[rereboy]

- there is absolutely no reason for not going to Earth (either Goku or Kibitoshin) get Gohan and the kids, especially since it wouldn`t even conflict with their Genki Dama plan and it would only take a few seconds

That is answered in the manga. Vegeta wanted Earth's population for once help defeating a monster that is threatening them.

- and because the concentrated energy generated by Mystic Gohan AND SSJ3 Gotenks is certainly superior to the concentrated energy of SSJ3 Goku

Gohan didn't give his "concentrate energy" to the Genki Dama so your point is irrelevant.

Wanting Earth`s population help is not a reason for not bringing Gohan and the others to join the fight. Like I said, they could have still proceeded with the Genki Dama plan with them there. One option doesn`t exclude the other.

As for Gohan not giving his concentrated power, he didn`t give it just because he didn`t "want" to, just as the boys didn`t fuse to give energy to the Genki Dama, even though that would give even more energy to the Genki Dama. There is no reason for them to do as such. So why? Plot convenience or even plotholes.

As for these points being irrelevant... I wasn`t the one who brought up these points, was I?

[Senzu_Bean]

Wanting Earth`s population help is not a reason for not bringing Gohan and the others to join the fight. Like I said, they could have still proceeded with the Genki Dama plan with them there. One option doesn`t exclude the other.

There wasn't any reason to bring them. Vegeta wanted to use the Genki Dama and not Gohan & Gotenks. Period!

As for Gohan not giving his concentrated power, he didn`t give it just because he didn`t "want" to...

He can't! What would he do? Fire a giant Kamehameha into space and hope it goes into the Kaioshin Realm?

As for these points being irrelevant... I wasn`t the one who brought up these points, was I?

Your point is irrelevant. Mine isn't.

[jackjack]

Kaboom, you should know by now since Juub, on MFG, completely refute every single of your awkward arguments.

A post from Juub or didn't happen.

[VegettoEX]

I am giving one last polite warning. User account suspensions are next.

If you can't converse politely and respectfully with your fellow fans, please find a different message board to post on.

[rereboy]

Wanting Earth`s population help is not a reason for not bringing Gohan and the others to join the fight. Like I said, they could have still proceeded with the Genki Dama plan with them there. One option doesn`t exclude the other.

There wasn't any reason to bring them. Vegeta wanted to use the Genki Dama and not Gohan & Gotenks. Period!

As for Gohan not giving his concentrated power, he didn`t give it just because he didn`t "want" to...

He can't! What would he do? Fire a giant Kamehameha into space and hope it goes into the Kaioshin Realm?

As for these points being irrelevant... I wasn`t the one who brought up these points, was I?

Your point is irrelevant. Mine isn't.

I see... So the only thing stopping Kid Buu from killing them at that moment was Good Buu, but there was no reason at all for bringing other fighters as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks as Mystic Gohan to the planet... What could be the point? They would just be in the way probably, right?

As for your second sentence I noticed that you avoided commenting on the reason why the kids didn`t fuse to give even more energy to the Genki Dama or why Gohan didn`t give all of his energy (till he became as tired as the rest of the Earthlings). Very nice.

And I know, I know, your point is awesome.

Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. No worries.

[jjgp1112]

There wasn't any reason to bring them. Vegeta wanted to use the Genki Dama and not Gohan & Gotenks. Period!

So are we going to ignore the part where Vegeta said he wanted the Earth's population to actually do something for themselves for once? it's been brought up several times and yet. You. Still. Ignore it. For the sake. Of. Your argument.

He can't! What would he do? Fire a giant Kamehameha into space and hope it goes into the Kaioshin Realm?

You're only responding to half of his point. As he said, some things can only be chalked up to plot convenience. You have to accept it. Just as he said, Goten and Trunks could have fused to give him energy, but they didn't. Hell, Vegeta himself could've contributed energy, but did he? No. Again, plot convenience/suspense. Despite your reasons for dismissing that argument, all of the actual facts that you refuse to believe for whatever reason show that maybe, just maybe, that's the only real explanation.

[Senzu_Bean]

So are we going to ignore the part where Vegeta said he wanted the Earth's population to actually do something for themselves for once? it's been brought up several times and yet. You. Still. Ignore it. For the sake. Of. Your argument.

Aren't we in agreement then?

You're only responding to half of his point. As he said, some things can only be chalked up to plot convenience. You have to accept it.

You're missing the point. Gohan give his ki to Genki Dama. If he was stronger than Kid Buu his ki alone would be enough to destroy him. Period!

[jjgp1112]

So are we going to ignore the part where Vegeta said he wanted the Earth's population to actually do something for themselves for once? it's been brought up several times and yet. You. Still. Ignore it. For the sake. Of. Your argument.

Aren't we in agreement then?

You're only responding to half of his point. As he said, some things can only be chalked up to plot convenience. You have to accept it.

You're missing the point. Gohan give his ki to Genki Dama. If he was stronger than Kid Buu his ki alone would be enough to destroy him. Period!

But all evidence shows that he only contributed a portion of his energy to the Spirit Bomb. If he contributed all of his energy he would've been substantially exhausted, and certainly wouldn't have enough energy to fly around the entire planet to convince other people to give their energy.

[Senzu_Bean]

But all evidence shows that he only contributed a portion of his energy to the Spirit Bomb. If he contributed all of his energy he would've been substantially exhausted, and certainly wouldn't have enough energy to fly around the entire planet to convince other people to give their energy.

That is all filler...