Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Godo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:45 pm

Although I agree on Cold not being able to transform, I have to adress a couple of things:
Savage68 wrote:That's another reason why I think Cold couldn't have gotten much stronger than he was (or stronger at all). Freeza was almost Goku's equal back on Namek, and after receiving a power-up, he still even entertains the idea of needing back-up?
Freeza can't sense Ki, so there is no way he knew exactly how strong Goku was nor if he had more to give if he wasn't damaged during the battle previous to his transformation.
He already knew his own full power though, and knew how much stronger he had got, and with his experience, he took a cautionary approach. You know, since he was nearly killed by being careless the last time.
Savage68 wrote: Not only did Freeza's augmentations provide a minimal power boost
I don't think so. If the power boost was minimal at best, then he wouldn't for the world think of having a chance of beating Goku, even with some backup.
Savage68 wrote:and on top of that, Cold couldn't have been that powerful in comparison. He was only regarded as being a helping hand. If his max were comparable to Freeza's 50% (at the most), his very presence would ensure Goku's defeat - one way or another.
I think that Cold would act as Jheese did during the Goku vs. Ginyu fight. Fire a huge energyball to distract him if Freeza got trouble, and then Freeza could deliver a fatal blow to Goku/catch Goku. Or to take care of Goku if Freeza got defeated, and Goku was severly wounded. Like some kind of fight-maintenance.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:32 pm

Cableguy15 wrote:After Freeza went to 100% they were pretty evenly matched. Goku withstood the "Warm up" (A barrage of punches and kicks)
That pretty much proves the whole point that the minute Goku went SSJ, Freeza lost. If they were truly evenly matched, Freeza's blows after going 100% would of done significant damage to Son. Instead Goku shrugged them off, that was the point. Goku dragged the fight out a little longer because he wanted to humiliate Freeza and destroy his pride.

You want even fights? Piccolo vs. 17, they were inflicting equal damage on each other. (minus 17's unfair stamina, strength wise they were equal.)

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:16 pm

MR.Mark wrote:
Cableguy15 wrote:After Freeza went to 100% they were pretty evenly matched. Goku withstood the "Warm up" (A barrage of punches and kicks)
That pretty much proves the whole point that the minute Goku went SSJ, Freeza lost. If they were truly evenly matched, Freeza's blows after going 100% would of done significant damage to Son. Instead Goku shrugged them off, that was the point. Goku dragged the fight out a little longer because he wanted to humiliate Freeza and destroy his pride.

You want even fights? Piccolo vs. 17, they were inflicting equal damage on each other. (minus 17's unfair stamina, strength wise they were equal.)
On the contrary, taking a lot of time to damage someone can be a sign of equality still. For instance, Goku's surprise attack on Freeza early in their fight did little damage to him, but in reality they were very close in power at that point.

And besides, every other time they were inflicting equal damage on each other. The majority of cases should hold more water than the earliest case which was only a warm up anyway.

I'm not saying they were exactly even, but pretty much everything indicates they were very close in power.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:57 pm

Son Goku tells Freeza right to his face AS he's powering up to 100%, that he is going to prove that even at his best, he would be inferior to a Saiyan.

He was right, Freeza's full power was still no match and it burned out steadily afterward.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:07 pm

MR.Mark wrote:Son Goku tells Freeza right to his face AS he's powering up to 100%, that he is going to prove that even at his best, he would be inferior to a Saiyan.

He was right, Freeza's full power was still no match and it burned out steadily afterward.
Goku said that, but look at how it actually transpired. He proved who was inferior by outlasting Freeza, which he specifically states is because 100% drains him too easily so I don't see your point. >_>

I mean, Goku would have eventually won, but they were still on a similar level of power. That's all I'm saying.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Bussani » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:57 pm

Savage68 wrote:I'd rather not fall back on something like that. Cold knew that he was going to be dealing with a Super Saiyan, something that he knows is stronger than Freeza, who is stronger than himself. And I still would need to why Cold is supposedly in a 2nd form, even though it would be weaker than the base Saiyans and Piccolo were...on Namek.
You might as well ask why they didn't just blow the planet up from orbit, like Cold himself suggested. They really are arrogant to the point of being blind.

As for Cold being in a "second form", it could be that the forms aren't comparable at all. The form we see Cold in could be his only form, and might not restrain his power as much as Freeza's similar looking one. Hell, for all we know, Cold's form might not do anything other than look intimidating. But yes, there's nothing to back up any of this; just pointing out that assumptions aside, we don't know much about Cold.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:13 pm

Cableguy15 wrote: I mean, Goku would have eventually won, but they were still on a similar level of power.
But they weren't, it was SSJ Goku>Freeza for the entire fight. Like I said, going by the manga, this is abundantly clear.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:21 pm

MR.Mark wrote:
Cableguy15 wrote: I mean, Goku would have eventually won, but they were still on a similar level of power.
But they weren't, it was SSJ Goku>Freeza for the entire fight. Like I said, going by the manga, this is abundantly clear.
If it's so abundantly clear, why can't you prove it? As I described panel-for-panel, the fight was very evenly matched.

And no, repeating your claim isn't proof. As a matter of fact, you failed to address my evidence and decided to post the above for some reason. :?

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:47 pm

Other than getting in some cheap shots, there is no evidence in the manga that makes Freeza come off as being SSJ Goku's equal, ZERO.

They were cheap shots too, the kamehameha struggle? Freeza played dirty and snuck around landing a hit, that's not skill that's luck.

Then near the end Freeza throws Goku, big deal, as Goku comes right back. Kicking him hard in the face knocking his ass to the ground.

Freeza got in a couple lucky throws/sneak attacks, because that was literally all he could do at this point, he was desperate and helpless.

The most definitive blows Freeza lands on SSJ Goku were at the beginning of his 100% power. Which Son Goku let him do to begin with, and shrugged them off to boot, mocking him.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:09 am

MR. Mark wrote:Other than getting in some cheap shots, there is no evidence in the manga that makes Freeza come off as being SSJ Goku's equal, ZERO.
So, every attack Freeza got in on Goku was only a "cheap shot"? That seems totally unfair of you, and that's an unjustifiable argument to even humor. Cheap shots are ineffective against someone that's decently stronger than you; This is made damn clear by...well, everything in the story. A DB fighter only needs a small advantage in power to be the end-all-be-all in a battle. And in case you didn't notice it - Freeza didn't sneak around Goku's Kamehameha. He hit it, head-on.

Example #1
Example #2
Example #3

These "cheap shots", as you put them, still seemed to do plenty enough damage to Goku. Even 70% Freeza's kiai was able to push Goku clear across the landscape and into the water. Caught off guard or not, that still said something about Freeza's power in comparison to Goku's. So, it doesn't really matter what bias you may have against Freeza. He was a challenge to Goku before his power started to drop; Goku's statement confirms this and so do his actions (he risked a planet exploding up his ass just to fight with Freeza, even though he's more than a match for him?). Frankly, I don't even know where people get this idea that SSJ Goku was "OMGLOL LIKE SOOOO much stronger than was Freeza on Namek". Because it didn't appear to be that way at all. :?

And just to be clear, no one's saying that they were equals. But they were close to being equals.
Bussani wrote:You might as well ask why they didn't just blow the planet up from orbit, like Cold himself suggested. They really are arrogant to the point of being blind.
Why would I ask that when Freeza answered the question for himself? He thought his power-up was sufficient enough to kill Goku with his own hands. And given his fight on Namek, he isn't foolish for thinking so. It's not as though he needed another transformation to stand a chance or anything.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:26 am

MR.Mark wrote:Other than getting in some cheap shots, there is no evidence in the manga that makes Freeza come off as being SSJ Goku's equal, ZERO.

They were cheap shots too, the kamehameha struggle? Freeza played dirty and snuck around landing a hit, that's not skill that's luck.

Then near the end Freeza throws Goku, big deal, as Goku comes right back. Kicking him hard in the face knocking his ass to the ground.

Freeza got in a couple lucky throws/sneak attacks, because that was literally all he could do at this point, he was desperate and helpless.

The most definitive blows Freeza lands on SSJ Goku were at the beginning of his 100% power. Which Son Goku let him do to begin with, and shrugged them off to boot, mocking him.
... Besides the parts where they matched each other blow-for-blow?

You seem completely ignore that he resisted the Kamehameha which Goku was trying to kill him with (he yelled "Die!!!" as he fired it after all), not to mention it's Goku's own problem if he can't react to Freeza getting off the Kamehameha and hitting him. What you call a cheap shot was really more of a smart move than anything.

And I don't know where you're getting the idea that he threw him. Goku was the one who threw Freeza after dodging one of his punches, not the other way around. Do I really need to post the images or what? I think I will so you'll see what I mean. We'll count how many hits they got on each other.
So where are these cheap shots you refer to? How about the lucky shots? I don't see any of that, just a fairly cut and dry close battle until Freeza's power started dropping.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:21 am

I still don't see it being equal, Freeza blows leave no lasting effect, even when he connects the odd time. I'm a huge Freeza fanboy myself, he's one of my fav villains of all time, even outside Dragon Ball. You feel the need to make Freeza look better or stronger, that's fine. But I feel that misses the point Toriyama was trying to make with the character.

Freeza is an insecure paranoid, and even delusional character. Even Vegeta with all his pride has his oh shit moments when he knows he fucked up. Freeza NEVER learns, ever.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:27 am

MR.Mark wrote:I still don't see it being equal, Freeza blows leave no lasting effect, even when he connects the odd time.
Then what was it that left Goku panting, bloodied and bruised at the end of their fight? They seemed to be in the same condition to me. And again, they aren't equals. They're only close to one another's power (very close), like SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu. Or maybe it's closer to FPSSJ Goku and Perfect Cell. One of the fighters had the slight edge, but it wasn't enough to make much of a difference.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:33 am

Savage68 wrote: Then what was it that left Goku panting, bloodied and bruised at the end of their fight?
If we're going by just the anime alone, the moment Goku "quits" the fight, he's not winded in the slightest. This is apearent in the manga too, Goku stares Freeza down completely calm. While Freeza huffs and puffs, utterly defeated, still muttering and spouting the same BS about paying him back for all the damage he did. Freeza is so in denial about there difference in power it's not even funny.

Freeza later loses his life to Trunks for the very damn same reason!

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:45 am

MR.Mark wrote:This is apearent in the manga too, Goku stares Freeza down completely calm. While Freeza huffs and puffs, utterly defeated, still muttering and spouting the same BS about paying him back for all the damage he did.
:shock:

That...isn't the moment in the fight that I was citing (I misspoke). That was after Freeza's power started to drop rapidly, so it isn't a fair citation. I was talking about this point earlier on in the fight, when Goku resurfaces after having his Kamehameha at full-power plowed through. He's huffing and puffing, and is bloodied and bruised. That does not happen in a fight unless the two fighters are relatively close in power.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:01 am

My bad, when I read end of their fight, I assumed you meant the actual end of the fight. Anyway, the little ki struggle ended with a sneak attack, causing a temporally winded Goku who was caught off guard.

In the end, Son Goku proved his point, that they were not equals. As shooting ki at each other is completely different than exchanging fisticuffs. When the real fighting began AKA "the body blow battle" as Freeza put it. Goku started dominating, because at that point, he choose to end the fight and got completely serious. He was through humiliating Freeza, and the planet was about to blow, so he quit soon after whooping his ass.

That was one of the main points of Son Goku's entire last speech, that Freeza was NO match for him in the end, even at his 100% best. It was everything Freeza feared, coming true, his worst nightmare. Being defeated by a Super Saiyan and utterly humiliated by a force he was in denial about for most of his life. To suggest Freeza was equal with the legendary Super Saiyan, who's very destiny was to defeat him, just takes away from the story.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:04 am

Savage68 wrote: :shock:

That...isn't the moment in the fight that I was citing (I misspoke). That was after Freeza's power started to drop rapidly, so it isn't a fair citation. I was talking about this point earlier on in the fight, when Goku resurfaces after having his Kamehameha at full-power plowed through. He's huffing and puffing, and is bloodied and bruised. That does not happen in a fight unless the two fighters are relatively close in power.
Because you can't possibly get winded after just taking a punch and being sent underwater. :wink: Even if the punch had no real effect, Goku still has to breathe. Hold your head underwater for a while and then come up for air. As for Goku being beaten and bruised after that, seems more like Namek did more damage to him than Freeza did. I don't care how strong Goku or his skin is, he'll take at least a little damage when colliding with a planet. A single ki shield tackle isn't going to cut someone up like jagged rocks.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:19 am

MR.Mark wrote:In the end, Son Goku proved his point, that they were not equals
Nobody is really trying to argue that they're equals. Just that they rival each other in terms of power, such as Goku and Piccolo when Raditz attacked. Or when Goku fought Cell... actually it'd probably be something in between those spectrum.

He proved his point by outlasting him, not by dominating him at his true full power, that's the real point.
When the real fighting began AKA "the body blow battle" as Freeza put it.
No, he really didn't. I just posted a bunch of pics depicting that blow for blow, they were about equal in battle when Freeza was at his full power. I even counted the landed hits by each, why are you ignoring that?
because at that point, he choose to end the fight and got completely serious.
Telling someone to "DIE!!!" while firing your strongest attack at them is what you'd call holding back? That's like the definition of completely serious, and Freeza took the attack head on. If Goku could have just turned on the extra power and beaten Freeza at any point like you seem to think, what's the point of dragging it out? It makes zero sense. The whole reason for Goku risking his life was so he could settle the score with Freeza once and for all and prove who was better between the two. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to hold back in this fight.
To suggest Freeza was equal with the legendary Super Saiyan, who's very destiny was to defeat him, just takes away from the story.
Except nobody is arguing that they were equal. You can still be more powerful than someone while being close in overall power. That's the case with Goku vs. Freeza.

Just so we're clear: Goku > Freeza, we all accept that.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 am

MR.Mark wrote:Anyway, the little ki struggle ended with a sneak attack, causing a temporally winded Goku who was caught off guard.
And again, you're gonna have a hard time arguing that Goku was caught off-guard by Freeza when he was performing an attack aimed directly at him, and still saw Freeza coming. That's like saying Gohan was caught off-guard by SPC's generic ki blast. How can something you see coming right at you be considered "caught off-guard"? It doesn't change the fact that his attack was weaker than Freeza's. Or was Goku caught off-guard...because his Kamehameha turned out to be weaker than he thought it would be? Either way, you're mistaken.
MR.Mark wrote:In the end, Son Goku proved his point, that they were not equals.
Yep, which is basically what I've been saying the entire time. Aggrandizing Goku's performance in that fight isn't doing anyone any favors. Goku was stronger than Freeza. But he wasn't a lot stronger than Freeza. Goku's speech was spurred on by Freeza's ki loss, anyway. The very fact that he cited Freeza's poor maintenance of his 100% proves that before the ki loss came into play, Freeza was still a challenge. Nothing else makes any sense.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:Because you can't possibly get winded after just taking a punch and being sent underwater. :wink: Even if the punch had no real effect, Goku still has to breathe. Hold your head underwater for a while and then come up for air.
That's cool and all, but if Freeza's punch (more like a tackle) was pitiful enough to "have no effect" on Goku, it would been torn apart by the Kamehameha. It was the damage from the attack that hurt Goku, and caused his exasperation. He also seemed to power-up, once he finally bounced back from that attack. Was the planet's damage the cause for that, too?

You also can't argue that "the planet did more damage to him than Freeza's attack", because their entire conversation about Namek's impending explosion heavily implied that they could both survive it. And Freeza especially seemed to think it would hardly damage him. If a weary, weakened Freeza survived Namek blowing up, you're not convincing me that Goku took all of that damage from crashing into the planet, and not Freeza's attack.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 am

Moreover ,remember Son's conversation with Kaio-sama? Goku wanted the ultimate revenge against Freeza by destroying his pride completely. There was more to it than just the "challenge", this is not Vegeta's fuck up with letting Cell becoming perfect here.

Son was confident in his power, showing Freeza was no match even at 100%. Nowhere in the Manga do I see Goku regret his decision even in the slightest. No underestimating Freeza's power, zilch, Nada, zero, SSJ Son Goku was Freeza's superior in every way. 100% Freeza was never his equal at any time during the fight.

SSJ Son Goku> 100% Freeza
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