Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

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rereboy
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerfull then him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:40 am

The fact that Cold tried to use Trunks` sword in order to kill him, in my opinion, is an indication that he was not superior to Freeza. Otherwise he would try to fight Trunks. Since he knew that he was not superior to Freeza and Freeza had been defeated, he didn`t even try to attack him, before he had his sword.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Herms » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:50 am

ringworm128 wrote:Freeza conquered planets so he could sell them for profit, but why would he need money? He's the strongest being in the universe. If he wanted something he could just take it.
I'd be kind of a hassle to take everything you wanted, even if you had the power to. I think it'd be much easier in the long-run to be rich and just pay people off.
Dayspring wrote:In all fairness, SSJ Trunks dwarfing both of them doesn't proove Mecha Freeza is stronger than Cold. It's the Daizenshuu bios that claim Freeza is stronger, IIRC, not the story. All the story gets us is a confirmation that one Ki is greater than the other, that Mecha Freeza's not at full strength, and that full-strength Mecha Freeza is stronger than full-strength Namek Freeza.
Well, in the manga Freeza refers to himself as the strongest in the universe while standing right in front of Cold.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerfull then him?

Post by Savage68 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:40 am

Dayspring wrote:There's also nothing hinting that Cold can't transform.
Of course there is. The fact that Cold doesn't transform when it would make every bit of sense to become as powerful as he can be hints (more like proves) that he can't transform, or even power-up. He sure as hell had enough time to. Cold's appearance being similar to that of Freeza's 2nd form doesn't really mean much, since if Cold were capable of increasing his own power in that 'fight', he would've gone for that, instead of just standing there trying to use his NASA plans to overpower Trunks with his own weapon.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerfull then him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:29 pm

Savage68 wrote:
Dayspring wrote:There's also nothing hinting that Cold can't transform.
Of course there is. The fact that Cold doesn't transform when it would make every bit of sense to become as powerful as he can be hints (more like proves) that he can't transform, or even power-up. He sure as hell had enough time to. Cold's appearance being similar to that of Freeza's 2nd form doesn't really mean much, since if Cold were capable of increasing his own power in that 'fight', he would've gone for that, instead of just standing there trying to use his NASA plans to overpower Trunks with his own weapon.
You have to remember that Cold was in a very delicate situation in there.

He wasn`t stronger than Freeza so he knew that he wouldn`t be able to defeat Trunks as long as he had his sword. And so, any indication that he was going to attack Trunks (like powering up) would only get him killed (if he really was stronger than Freeza he would just (power up) and attack, instead of trying to trick Trunks).

Because he wasn`t any more capable than Freeza, he tried a bunch of things.

First, he tried to convince Trunks to come to his side, which would prevent the fight.

He refused, so he asked him to see his sword, trying to deceive him, and because asking was worth a shot if he could really convince him to hand over his sword.

If Trunks had refused, Cold would have probably tried to retreat. He didn`t and so, Cold, convinced that the only reason why he was so strong was because of that sword and convinced that Trunks wouldn`t be able to resist a close range blow from his own sword, used the element of surprise to try to strike him right then and there. And he failed.

Of course Trunks saw through the deception and he only agreed to give him his sword because that wouldn`t make a difference, but to Cold`s mind, it was impossible that someone able to kill Freeza so easily could exist, except because of the advantage of that sword. And he also couldn`t conceive that someone could be strong enough to stop a close range blow of a weapon that killed Freeza easily, when wielded by Cold himself. And that got him killed.

To these sequences of events, he didn`t need to transform, so he didn`t, or he couldn`t. I think that none of these two possibilities can be ruled out.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:47 pm

rereboy wrote:Of course Trunks saw through the deception and he only agreed to give him his sword because that wouldn`t make a difference, but to Cold`s mind, it was impossible that someone able to kill Freeza so easily could exist, except because of the advantage of that sword.
Cold recognized Trunks' strength as well as his sword. He even asked if Trunks was interested in replacing Freeza's role as his own son.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by MR.Mark » Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:59 pm

Herms wrote: I think it'd be much easier in the long-run to be rich and just pay people off.
There's no law saying you can't be a "paranoid insecure psycho in disguise as a gentlemen" AND live a posh civilized lifestyle. :mrgreen:

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:07 pm

Savage68 wrote: Cold recognized Trunks' strength as well as his sword. He even asked if Trunks was interested in replacing Freeza's role as his own son.
Yes, because Trunks was indeed very powerful and because that would prevent him from having to fight someone who was able to kill Freeza, potentially saving his own life and gaining a new son.

However, he was so convinced of the greatness of his family`s power that he immediately thought that Freeza only lost so easily because of Trunks` sword. He probably thought that Trunks` power wasn`t very far from his son`s power. It was the sword that made him win so easily. After all, their power was so great that the power of that man couldn`t possibly be that much greater. And since Freeza had been easily sliced in two by that sword, he honestly believed that Trunks wouldn`t be able to survive a head-on blow from that same sword wielded by Cold himself.

But he was dead wrong.

But, like I said, he didn`t have to transform to do any of this, only if he wanted to ruin the element of surprise and make it possible to Trunk to kill him as he did with Freeza (since he wasn`t stronger than Freeza) or to make it possible to Trunks to dodge the head-on sword blow he was planning to deliver, if he got Trunks to give him the sword.
Last edited by rereboy on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:14 pm

rereboy wrote:And since Freeza had been easily sliced in two by that sword, he honestly believed that Trunks wouldn`t be able to survive a head-on blow from that same sword wielded by Cold himself.

But he was dead wrong.
How was he wrong about that? The sword never connected head-on. The only thing Cold miscalculated was Trunks' overall strength, but that doesn't mean that the sword wouldn't have killed Trunks if he actually managed to land the blow.
rereboy wrote:But, like I said, he didn`t have to transform to do any of this, only if he wanted to ruin the element of surprise and make it possible to Trunk to kill him as he did with Freeza or to make it possible to Trunks to dodge the head-on sword blow he was planning to deliver.
He didn't transform because he couldn't have. That would've been much more efficient and sensible than some stupid underhanded attack. Honestly, who tries something like that if they still have more power under their belt? He had no options but to use the sword.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:31 pm

He was wrong because Trunks was perfectly able to easily stop the blade with his hand, he didn`t even have to dodge. Cold didn`t believe that Trunks could do that since the sword sliced Freeza in two easily, which would mean that Trunks was much stronger than Freeza. He believed that as long as the sword connected, it would be effective, as it was with Freeza. Trunks couldn`t be that much stronger. Or so he thought.

Something that makes you better but slightly worse than something that just failed horribly (Freeza) isn`t a very good option at all. I would say it is actually pointless. He knew that he couldn`t win that way, why would he bother? Besides trying to retreat, his only options were: inviting Trunks to join him and try to turn his sword on him tricking him. Transforming to fight would make those options impossible so he definitely didn`t bother to transform (if he was able to transform) at that time. And once he got the sword, since he believed it would be effective as long as it connected with Trunks, he simply tried to use the element of surprise and catch Trunks off guard.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:41 pm

rereboy wrote:He was wrong because Trunks was perfectly able to easily stop the blade with his hand, he didn`t even have to dodge.
That doesn't have anything at all to do with what I said. I was specifically referencing how much damage the blade would've done if it hit Trunks head-on, not whether or not Cold thought he could land the blow. Again, the only way Cold was 'wrong' was in thinking that the sword would hit Trunks. But not necessarily wrong in thinking that it would win the fight for him. And judging by the fact that Trunks had to stop the sword, it still would've ended up hurting him one way or another.
rereboy wrote:Something that makes you better but slightly worse than something that just failed horribly (Freeza) isn`t a very good option at all.
Neither were the tricks he employed. Freeza knew for certain that he was weaker than Goku after he had been cut in half, but he still used as much power as he could in a last-ditch effort to inflict some kind of damage. Cold instantly went for the weak point, and nothing was ever hinted at which implied a possible strength increase for him.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:58 pm

I don`t see how Trunks can make his hand hard enough to stop the blade (using his focus and ki) and he can`t make his head, which is already naturally harder than his hand, hard enough to stop the blade. It was just easier and more natural to grab the sword. #18 also stopped the blade with her arm, but I`m sure it wouldn`t damage her head at all. Cold simply believed that he couldn`t stop it, while he was sure that Trunks was able to stop him and win in a fight because he wasn`t stronger than Freeza (with transformation or with no transformation).

As for Cold`s transformation, I`m simply saying that what happened doesn`t exclude the possibility of him having the transformation, in my opinion. But its perfectly possible that he has none.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Savage68 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:03 pm

rereboy wrote:I don`t see how Trunks can make his hand hard enough to stop the blade (using his focus and ki) and he can`t make his head, which is already naturally harder than his hand, hard enough to stop the blade.
He caught the sword with his hand. He didn't tank the sword with his hand. I don't see ever remembering Trunks concentrating his ki into his hand, either. He just caught the damn thing before Cold's attack managed to land. It's inherently a different situation than what happened with #18.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by rereboy » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:10 pm

He stopped the blade with his palm. I don`t see how that`s different... But that`s beside the point I was trying to say.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Cableguy15 » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:16 pm

If I recall correctly, the transformations weren't exactly an indication of power besides that it increased each time anyway, in fact weren't they referred to as "Suppressions" in the manga? They were merely to help contain Freeza's power, which leads to a lot of possibilities for why Cold looks the way he does.

Maybe that truly is Cold's real form, and Freeza simply based one of his suppressions off of his father's appearance as a way of honoring him. Considering Cold is older and would most likely have more experience, perhaps he just has better control over his power and doesn't need the suppressions.

That wouldn't really explain why the Daizenshuu only called him slightly inferior to Freeza though, since he was comparable to a suppressed Freeza when they arrived, and never appeared to power up afterwards. Then again, that might be an example of great control over his power. Freeza seemed to be able to go from 50 to 70 percent of his power very quickly too. Maybe he raised his power as he attacked Trunks? Meh, who knows? He's certainly weaker than Freeza in my view.

Also, I believe the reason for Freeza selling planets was so he could conquer without much effort. It's true that the fear of his power could probably get him things he wanted, but money and luxury would lure some powerful fighters I'm sure. I mean, I doubt he randomly searched places for henchmen. The idea of having whatever you want if you work for Freeza was probably tempting to most aliens. That, combined with the fear of annihilation probably made his business all the more effective.

tldr; It's more efficient to have money involved.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Godo » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:05 pm

rereboy wrote:He stopped the blade with his palm. I don`t see how that`s different... But that`s beside the point I was trying to say.
He caught it carefully so that the blade wouldn't break. Android 18, on the other hand, just blocked it, not being careful about it breaking at all.

And I would like to add that we shouldn't take the forms too heavy into consideration when we speak about power. At that point, King Cold needed to look more like a king and a ruler than a fighter.
Freeza's second form was probably the most intimidating and respectful, so Toriyama used it to design King Cold.

But when I think about their power, the following comes to my mind:

"I am now much stronger than I was on Namek. Together we will destroy Son Goku!" - Freeza

It seemed pretty much like that they depended on Freeza's power rather than King Cold (who mostly would work like Jheese did when Ginyu fought Goku).
If King Cold was stronger than Freeza, he could have fought Trunks much better than he actually did. The whole scene points to him being much weaker than Trunks, to the point that he had to use the sword.
I doubt that Freeza would feel the need to use the sword. If he had powered up to his max, he would have given Trunks a minor challenge. But he was cut in half before he could think of that.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Goku100xKamehameha » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:13 pm

So Cold is not stronger than Freeza? he said Cold is the only one who ever hurt him in his final form before Goku.

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Bussani » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:20 pm

Goku100xKamehameha wrote:So Cold is not stronger than Freeza? he said Cold is the only one who ever hurt him in his final form before Goku.
Just think about that for a moment: no one had ever hurt him except his father and Goku. And Goku was much weaker than him at the time--most likely a lot weaker than Cold, too. Plus, for all we know, Freeza wasn't as strong (or at least not as skilled) as a child and got his ass whooped for being a brat.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by KakaR0T » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:24 pm

Bussani wrote:Plus, for all we know, Freeza wasn't as strong (or at least not as skilled) as a child and got his ass whooped for being a brat.
That would make a good DBZ TV special. History of Freeza: A Story of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse

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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:01 pm

Yeah thats what annoys me about Freeza, we never got a proper background story on him. I'd like to see a special that showed how he got to the top.
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Re: Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

Post by Herms » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:15 am

Cableguy15 wrote:If I recall correctly, the transformations weren't exactly an indication of power besides that it increased each time anyway, in fact weren't they referred to as "Suppressions" in the manga?
Freeza says he needs his transformations because he can't properly control his power on his own, so you could call them that. Still, I don't think the exact term "suppression" is ever used to refer to them in the series; they're just always called "transformations".
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