"Ultimate" Gohan

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Zephyr
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"Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:46 pm

After receiving the Old Kai's power-up does Gohan not go SSJ because he simply doesn't need it, or because the "spell" rendered him unable to? Or better yet, did the power-up just replace his SSJ form?

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Kendamu » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:05 pm

Everyone seems to interpret it differently for some reason. Here's how the VIZ manga does it after the process is finished:

---------

Gohan: How do I become this ultimate fighter?!

Old Kai: You turn into that Super whatever often enough. Fire it up, just like that!

Gohan: Hah!

*about 8 panels of reaction shots as his power instantly comes out and blows everyone back*

Old Kai: I didn't mean right next to me, you fool!

Gohan: It's...amazing... Dad, it's incredible!!!

Goku: You're right... It is amazing... It's insane...! I don't believe it! You haven't changed on the outside... you're not even Super Saiyan, but... I didn't know this was even possible...

Old Kai: Feh. Transforming isn't everything. That Super-Whatever is just showbiz.

-----------

Going off of the parts I made bold, he did exactly what he does when he turns Super Saiyan, but he brought out an even greater power instead of transforming. This leads me to believe that he can't transform anymore. However, he also no longer needs to. He's gone past transforming. If I could compare it to anything, it'd be like what would happen if there was such a thing as mastering Super Saiyan 3 the same way Goku and Gohan mastered Super Saiyan just before the Cell Game (a.k.a. FPSSj).

As I said in the beginning, though, people like debating exactly what's going on.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:21 pm

As far as I can tell, Gohan's new "Ultimate" power just replaces Super Saiyan. After all, being told to "do that Super Saiyan thing" was, instead of actually transforming, the final step in bringing out all that unlocked power and finalizing the process. His latent power has all been drawn out, including whatever the Super Saiyan forms would have given him and more. So even if he could transform, it'd just be a light show and a waste of energy.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Dayspring » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:23 pm

When he got angry earlier at how long it was taking to become "Ultimate," he triggered a huge amount of power without meaning to. Whenever he transforms into SSJ, he uses anger as well. I figure the amount of anger needed to go SSJ is the same amount that triggered all his dormant power once Ultimate, which is why he didn't transform. That's not to say he can't go SSJ, just that it takes more anger than normal and now serves no purpose besides instant hair bleaching.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Savage68 » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:30 pm

Gohan hasn't been seen using anger for SSJ since he first attained it. And if anger had much of anything to do with his Mystic form, he wouldn't be seen controlling it's power (powering-up, then suppressing it, then powering-up to his max) with as much ease as he did. He controls Mystic as effortlessly as any other Saiyan controls their SSJ forms. In fact, it'd be much easier, since there should be virtually no strain on him at all.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Rocketman » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:47 pm

If Gohan could go Super anymore, he would have when Gotenks-Buu was beating his ass.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:27 am

Well my theory is that he didn't lose Super Saiyan but that it basically became synonymous with his normal state and the only thing he truly lost was his former selfhood.

Piccolo made it clear that Gohan had become an entirely different person, both inside and out. So I guess technically you could say that he is perpetually "Super Saiyan" but with none of the drawbacks. Something I had noticed with Toriyama's art is that he'll draw Gohan and Goku's SSJ2 forms with a single spike of hair coming down their forehead; going towards the left. But in Goku's SSJ3 form, the spike goes towards the right. Gohan's "Mystic" transformation follows the same trait as a SSJ3.

This leads me to believe that Gohan had the capacity to transform into SSJ3 as well.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:09 am

Son_Gohan wrote:Well my theory is that he didn't lose Super Saiyan but that it basically became synonymous with his normal state and the only thing he truly lost was his former selfhood.

Piccolo made it clear that Gohan had become an entirely different person, both inside and out. So I guess technically you could say that he is perpetually "Super Saiyan" but with none of the drawbacks. Something I had noticed with Toriyama's art is that he'll draw Gohan and Goku's SSJ2 forms with a single spike of hair coming down their forehead; going towards the left. But in Goku's SSJ3 form, the spike goes towards the right. Gohan's "Mystic" transformation follows the same trait as a SSJ3.

This leads me to believe that Gohan had the capacity to transform into SSJ3 as well.
I've counted the manga panels before, it's almost even with how many timed Ultimate Gohan's bang is on the left or right. Toriyama simply changes it for how he thinks it looks best in the panel, same reason why normal Goku generally has 3 spikes on the left and 4-5 on the right, but there are panels where it is reversed....which shouldn't be possible.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by hleV » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:30 am

Just when Gohan became "Mystic/Ultimate", he still had two bangs. During the fight with Super Buu - one bang. Later - two bangs again. He also had one bang in both SSJ and SSJ2 forms in Tournament Saga.

TOEI, on the other hand, left Gohan's "Mystic/Ultimate" powerup as a simple transformation in the 13th movie. Once Gohan transformed, he looked exactly like SSJ2, except for the hair color.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by MR.Mark » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:28 pm

It was a refreshing story change on Toriyama's part, to get the damn gold hair out of the picture if only for awhile. SSJ was literally all over the Buu arc that I don't blame him.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:37 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I've counted the manga panels before, it's almost even with how many timed Ultimate Gohan's bang is on the left or right. Toriyama simply changes it for how he thinks it looks best in the panel, same reason why normal Goku generally has 3 spikes on the left and 4-5 on the right, but there are panels where it is reversed....which shouldn't be possible.
I'd argue that "Mystic" is also a physical transformation, aside from his newer normal appearance after the ritual.

Both share the same trait of his eyes being permanently closed off, which had previously only occurred when he turned SSJ. The hair however, is something that is clearly indicative of a change. In his fight with Super Buu, it was a predominant one strand curving to the right, but after being resurrected, it was two strands both curving to the left.

I believe that Toriyama does establish a certain way of drawing specific traits, but that leading up to it will usually have flip-floppy and conflicting ideas because he may not be sure himself which he'd want to use. The fact that he can mistakes (which is not uncommon in his case) should also not be disregarded because even with such blatant errors like forgetting SSJ3 Goku's one strand, making him look like a SSJ3 Vegeta is something you usually wouldn't expect him to look past.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:42 pm

I believe this replaced Super Saiyan entirely.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:19 pm

For me I believe that it didn't replace his Super Saiyan ability, but that he didn't need to use it. When Old Kai tells him that he can transform "just like that," meaning just like turning Super Saiyan, I see it as possibly meaning that it's a similar process of raising ki. In other words, becoming Super Saiyan 2 is also similar to becoming Super Saiyan with more power pushed out (I'm guessing... I never transformed into a Super Saiyan 2 before), so in essence I think he was just telling him to power up and focus on externalizing that ki.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Bussani » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:12 pm

They go out of their way to say that it isn't a transformation, though. Paraphrased:

"You're stronger than a Super Saiyan, but you haven't changed on the outside!"
"Transforming isn't everything. That Super-whatever is just show-biz."


And like Rocketman pointed out, if Gohan had any Super-whatevers left up his sleeves, he should have used them when he was getting his ass kicked and when Buu said he couldn't get any stronger.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Zephyr » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:02 pm

Rocketman wrote:If Gohan could go Super anymore, he would have when Gotenks-Buu was beating his ass.
This, and the fact that he tried to transform after receiving the training but didn't, show that he could no longer transform.

Thanks for all the answers. :)

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Dayspring » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:13 pm

Bussani wrote:They go out of their way to say that it isn't a transformation, though. Paraphrased:

"You're stronger than a Super Saiyan, but you haven't changed on the outside!"
"Transforming isn't everything. That Super-whatever is just show-biz."
Exactly. Plus he was able to use an incomplete version without transforming earlier.
And like Rocketman pointed out, if Gohan had any Super-whatevers left up his sleeves, he should have used them when he was getting his ass kicked and when Buu said he couldn't get any stronger.
But he wouldn't. He has no reason to try it. All of his strength and potential, even from his transformations, is now being used in his base form. He already knows SSJ will do absolutely nothing at this point because it shouldn't do anything other than change his hair color. Granted that post-ROSAT, the amount of energy being wasted is negligeable, it's still a waste of energy since all it would do is make him a blonde.

And by "anger" earlier, I wasn't referring to the extreme rage Goku used to go SSJ the first time or that Gohan went SSJ2 with, I just mean the same amount all SSJs use. That basic trigger amount.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Rocketman » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:43 pm

Dayspring wrote:But he wouldn't. He has no reason to try it. All of his strength and potential, even from his transformations, is now being used in his base form. He already knows SSJ will do absolutely nothing at this point because it shouldn't do anything other than change his hair color.
Wouldn't he at least try, since the alternative was death? Vegeta attacks Kid Buu in base to protect Goku, Goku ramps the Kaioken far past the redline, Piccolo does similarly a few times, even Tien will throw himself into a fight he can't win if the need is great enough.



Oh wait, Gohan's against putting any effort in at all. My mistake.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Bussani » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:21 am

Dayspring wrote:But he wouldn't. He has no reason to try it. All of his strength and potential, even from his transformations, is now being used in his base form. He already knows SSJ will do absolutely nothing at this point because it shouldn't do anything other than change his hair color. Granted that post-ROSAT, the amount of energy being wasted is negligeable, it's still a waste of energy since all it would do is make him a blonde.
To be honest, as far as my last post was concerned, if it "does absolutely nothing" then it's the same as not being able to transform at all. In fact, as you pointed out, it's actually worse.

That said and with due respect, I don't actually agree that he could become this pointless version of Super Saiyan. It's certainly possible, but there's no proof, and I guess I just have a different model in my head of how the form works.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Zephyr » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:38 am

Bussani wrote:That said and with due respect, I don't actually agree that he could become this pointless version of Super Saiyan. It's certainly possible, but there's no proof, and I guess I just have a different model in my head of how the form works.
Wouldn't the fact that his hair didn't change when he tried to transform count as proof?

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by TheGreatness25 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:26 am

Well the thing is, he didn't transform on the outside. His appearance didn't change... except for his hair and eyes. But I like to look at it as a big power-up and he could eventually become Super Saiyan again. I mean after all, he still has Saiyan blood, and I don't think that Super Saiyan is something that a person can just stop doing. BUT mainly I look at it like this to give some sort of validity to GT, since otherwise it wouldn't make any sense and it would be one more reason not to watch it, even though I want to associate it with DB.

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