"Ultimate" Gohan

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Son_Gohan
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Son_Gohan » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:35 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Those pics above are by no means evidence that Elder Kaioshin ritual is a transformation or a power-up that Gohan can use and not use when he wants.

That is like saying Goku is transformed against Tambourine cause he is mad at him and not against Bulma when he is all happy.
That's an irrelevant comparison.

The reason the subject is even in question is because Gohan has shown the capacity to transform before and the traits which defined such a change are still evident enough to be discerned in his new form.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:00 pm

Looking back at the Manga (Don't know if this was mentioned), when Gohan gets pissed that Old Kaioshin is taking too long, he powers-up crazily and has that "Ultimate" look to an extent, but once he calms down and is shocked at the power, he looks normal again.

Clearly the upgrade is enough to be clarified as a "transformation" to some extent--even if it's a permanent one as far as physical looks are concerned. Gohan still had the closed eye lines 10 yrs later, too.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Dayspring » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:35 pm

Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:But he wouldn't. He has no reason to try it. All of his strength and potential, even from his transformations, is now being used in his base form. He already knows SSJ will do absolutely nothing at this point because it shouldn't do anything other than change his hair color. Granted that post-ROSAT, the amount of energy being wasted is negligeable, it's still a waste of energy since all it would do is make him a blonde.
To be honest, as far as my last post was concerned, if it "does absolutely nothing" then it's the same as not being able to transform at all. In fact, as you pointed out, it's actually worse.
But that's my point. From a fighting standpoint, going SSJ would be worse than his base, so he just doesn't bother to try transforming. It doesn't prove that he can't go SSJ, so much as it prooves he won't.

It's like if I had $1 million but needed $2 million. Will tossing 10 cents away make a major negative difference? No, but it doesn't take me closer to my goal either, so I don't bother. In fact, it makes reaching my goal microscopically harder. Simply because I didn't bother to throw away that dime doesn't mean that I can't, though, it just means I won't.
That said and with due respect, I don't actually agree that he could become this pointless version of Super Saiyan. It's certainly possible, but there's no proof, and I guess I just have a different model in my head of how the form works.
But there is some supporting proof, though:
1) All his potential power is being used in his base form, implying one of the following:
A: He can't transform at all (What you believe)
B: He can transform, but it will make absolutely no difference in regards to strength
C: He can transform, but it wil make absolutely no difference in regards to strength, while the drawbacks of maintaining SSJ, however negligeable, still remain (What I believe)
D: He can transform, but the added strength of "Ultimate" will not be accessible in this form, since it is only useable in base form

2) He uses some of his Ultimate power by getting angry, not going SSJ, before all of his Ultimate power is brought out. This implies Ultimate does not replace SSJ. (Meaning it's either B, C, or D)

3) He's told activating SSJ is similar to activating the Ultimate power. Getting angry repeats 2, as well as has been the cause of SSJ levels. This lends towards refuting the impossibility of SSJ, because it still remains unseen if simply using more anger can trigger the change (meaning A, B, C, and D are all possible with this point).

4) Gohan never bothers to try going SSJ, implying that he knows one of the two following will be the result:
A) He can't (A)
B) Doing so would gain him absolutely nothing (B, C, or D)

5) Goku asks if he and Gohan should go SSJ before fusing with Gohan. Elder Kaioshin says it doesn't matter, implying Elder Kaioshin thinks Gohan can still go SSJ. (B, C, or D)

So yes, there's plenty of chances I'm wrong about there being no change besides a loss of power (meaning C specifically), but there's more evidence showing it's possible than impossible. There's also more evidence showing SSJ in some form is possible instead of impossible. In other words, the arguments against SSJ also work for SSJ, while two additional arguments for SSJ work against not being able to transform.

As for the "different look," it has to be artistic style. The whole purpose is that he has no use for transformations anymore, so saying he transformed prooves this is just a weird argument. The change is in his strength and demeanor, so in that sense he did transform from what he was before. The artistic change is done to reflect that change in demeanor. The reason he "loses" it later is because he's not being vicious. In other words, everything's peaceful and happy again, so his demeanor is drawn to reflect his old peaceful and happy self. It's the same with SSJ Goku in battle with Cell as opposed to SSJ Goku when he's getting in the ring to start fighting Cell.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Bussani » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:19 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Dayspring wrote:But he wouldn't. He has no reason to try it. All of his strength and potential, even from his transformations, is now being used in his base form. He already knows SSJ will do absolutely nothing at this point because it shouldn't do anything other than change his hair color. Granted that post-ROSAT, the amount of energy being wasted is negligeable, it's still a waste of energy since all it would do is make him a blonde.
To be honest, as far as my last post was concerned, if it "does absolutely nothing" then it's the same as not being able to transform at all. In fact, as you pointed out, it's actually worse.
But that's my point. From a fighting standpoint, going SSJ would be worse than his base, so he just doesn't bother to try transforming. It doesn't prove that he can't go SSJ, so much as it prooves he won't.

It's like if I had $1 million but needed $2 million. Will tossing 10 cents away make a major negative difference? No, but it doesn't take me closer to my goal either, so I don't bother. In fact, it makes reaching my goal microscopically harder. Simply because I didn't bother to throw away that dime doesn't mean that I can't, though, it just means I won't.
I'm confused. The part of my post you replied to had nothing to do with what you're saying here. I already understood what your point was. My point was that I didn't even consider a looks-only-transformation to be a "Super-whatever" at the time I made my original post. If it didn't change his power, then I didn't feel it was worth mentioning. Like you keep saying, he wouldn't have even tried it.
But there is some supporting proof, though:
1) All his potential power is being used in his base form, implying one of the following:
A: He can't transform at all (What you believe)
B: He can transform, but it will make absolutely no difference in regards to strength
C: He can transform, but it wil make absolutely no difference in regards to strength, while the drawbacks of maintaining SSJ, however negligeable, still remain (What I believe)
D: He can transform, but the added strength of "Ultimate" will not be accessible in this form, since it is only useable in base form

2) He uses some of his Ultimate power by getting angry, not going SSJ, before all of his Ultimate power is brought out. This implies Ultimate does not replace SSJ. (Meaning it's either B, C, or D)

3) He's told activating SSJ is similar to activating the Ultimate power. Getting angry repeats 2, as well as has been the cause of SSJ levels. This lends towards refuting the impossibility of SSJ, because it still remains unseen if simply using more anger can trigger the change (meaning A, B, C, and D are all possible with this point).

4) Gohan never bothers to try going SSJ, implying that he knows one of the two following will be the result:
A) He can't (A)
B) Doing so would gain him absolutely nothing (B, C, or D)

5) Goku asks if he and Gohan should go SSJ before fusing with Gohan. Elder Kaioshin says it doesn't matter, implying Elder Kaioshin thinks Gohan can still go SSJ. (B, C, or D)

So yes, there's plenty of chances I'm wrong about there being no change besides a loss of power (meaning C specifically), but there's more evidence showing it's possible than impossible. There's also more evidence showing SSJ in some form is possible instead of impossible. In other words, the arguments against SSJ also work for SSJ, while two additional arguments for SSJ work against not being able to transform.
Supporting proof, sure. I just meant that it's not a fact, which you even say at the bottom here, so...yeah.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:52 pm

5) Goku asks if he and Gohan should go SSJ before fusing with Gohan. Elder Kaioshin says it doesn't matter, implying Elder Kaioshin thinks Gohan can still go SSJ. (B, C, or D)
Or that he thinks Goku's ability to go SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, etc will allow their fusion to transform.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Bussani » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:51 am

Kingdom Heartless wrote:
5) Goku asks if he and Gohan should go SSJ before fusing with Gohan. Elder Kaioshin says it doesn't matter, implying Elder Kaioshin thinks Gohan can still go SSJ. (B, C, or D)
Or that he thinks Goku's ability to go SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, etc will allow their fusion to transform.
Well, in Viz's translation Goku says, "Should we be Super Saiyan before fusing?" It is a good line to back up his belief.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by hleV » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:23 am

Here's the "Partial Mystic Powerup":

Image

I'm not sure why his eyes became SSJ-ish. Either he really tried to transform (for NO FUCKING REASON, LOL. It really looks that way though) or it's just an effect of having his potential being unlocked by Elder Kaioshin (most likely). He still has two bangs.

Now here's the "Permanent Mystic Transformation/Powerup" (not really the page where he transforms though).
I'd like to call it a transformation since Gohan actually tries to transform into SSJ and it results in his permanent Mystic form:

Image

This is the last page where Gohan is displayed with two bangs until Kid Buu.
As you can notice, in one of the panels Gohan has one bang, while in others there's two. This indicates that hair means nothing in this case.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:03 am

There is really no difference between this and Gohan going over 10,000 against the Ginyu Squad, except now he can go Super Saiyan and his hidden powers are unlocked beyond his limits.
Last edited by Senzu_Bean on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Bussani » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:04 am

hleV wrote:Either he really tried to transform (for NO FUCKING REASON, LOL. It really looks that way though)
He went Super Saiyan just from getting angry at the tournament, so it's not much of a stretch.
I'd like to call it a transformation since Gohan actually tries to transform into SSJ and it results in his permanent Mystic form
I suppose it depends on what you consider a transformation. Freeza looks a bit different at 100% full power, and Roshi bulks up when he brings out his full power, but are they transformations? I think of the minor changes to Gohan when he powers up after the upgrade in the same sort of way.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Son_Gohan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:02 am

hleV wrote:Either he really tried to transform (for NO FUCKING REASON, LOL. It really looks that way though) or it's just an effect of having his potential being unlocked by Elder Kaioshin (most likely).
Anger has always triggered his transformations, it's nothing new.
hleV wrote:As you can notice, in one of the panels Gohan has one bang, while in others there's two. This indicates that hair means nothing in this case.
If you notice, the one bang still follows that SSJ3-style; curving to the right.

Only after getting resurrected did it go back to normal.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by hleV » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:50 am

Son_Gohan wrote:If you notice, the one bang still follows that SSJ3-style; curving to the right.
That suggests absolutely nothing. Bangs are in different sides in 3rd and 5th panels.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Son_Gohan » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:06 pm

hleV wrote:
Son_Gohan wrote:If you notice, the one bang still follows that SSJ3-style; curving to the right.
That suggests absolutely nothing. Bangs are in different sides in 3rd and 5th panels.
More like the opposite:

2 panels showing it going towards the right > 1 panel where his face is angled the opposite direction.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Dayspring » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:56 pm

hleV wrote: I'm not sure why his eyes became SSJ-ish. Either he really tried to transform (for NO FUCKING REASON, LOL. It really looks that way though) or it's just an effect of having his potential being unlocked by Elder Kaioshin (most likely). He still has two bangs.
His eyes also went SSJ-ish when he was powering up to go SSJ2 at the budokai. It's just a trait he has when he powers up in base form once he knows SSJ.
Now here's the "Permanent Mystic Transformation/Powerup" (not really the page where he transforms though).
I'd like to call it a transformation since Gohan actually tries to transform into SSJ and it results in his permanent Mystic form:
Where is it implied that it's permanent? Also, if it's triggered similarly, it's possible they use different limits. (IE: Increase from A - Z gets you SSJ. Increasing the exact same way, but only up to Q gets you Ultimate first, because Q comes before Z)
This is the last page where Gohan is displayed with two bangs until Kid Buu.
As you can notice, in one of the panels Gohan has one bang, while in others there's two. This indicates that hair means nothing in this case.
Agreed. Ultimate taps into his hidden power. Among that power is his anger-boost. It makes sense for him to simply look angry, since anger isn't a transformation like SSJ levels are.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:52 pm

It's just an artistic tweak, guys. The 'closed-borders eyes' is just a thing Toriyama does to show that a character now has a more intense or serious attitude. Goku only showed them when he first became a Super Saiyan, for example. It's not like he didn't have eyelids before then, and just grew them all of a sudden. That same shift in attitude came along with Gohan's 'Ultimate' power-up, and the eyes are a way of showing that all the stuff that came with Super Saiyan are now here for good in his normal form.
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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Zephyr » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:16 am

So if Goku received the same power up his hair would stay black as well. But what shape would his hair take, that of an SSJ1, 2, or 3?

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Savage68 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:23 am

Zephyr wrote:So if Goku received the same power up his hair would stay black as well. But what shape would his hair take, that of an SSJ1, 2, or 3?
He'd look like he did in Hell with Pikkon.

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Re: "Ultimate" Gohan

Post by Senzu_Bean » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:05 am

Zephyr wrote:So if Goku received the same power up his hair would stay black as well. But what shape would his hair take, that of an SSJ1, 2, or 3?
His base shape, just like Gohan did. :|

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