Opinion on SSJ4

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:52 pm

SonGohan-san wrote: Why is it that Cell, Furiza, and the Ginyus or whoever even have their bodies in the afterlife? When Goku dies, it is explained that only great and noble warriors are allowed to keep their "bodies" and train in the afterlife. And for those who want to shout "anime filler", even Piccolo told Vegita before he killed himself that he could not keep his body like Son was able to. I mean, remember when Goku fell into Hell? All those white clouds running around were souls. Now, all of a sudden he goes back to Hell to confront Furiza and Cell and they all magically have their bodies and whatnot. But what bothers me most, is Toei/Akira Toriyama/ whoever don't even bother to explain anything.

Well, this does fit in with the anime filler explanation, because Toriyama-sensei himself never had those scenes where we saw the villains with their bodies after they were dead in the manga. As for why Toei showed them with bodies, it was probably just for the convenience of being able to see who they were. I mean, a little white cloud screaming "Remember me? I'm Freeza! Bwa ha ha!" just doesn't seem very threatening.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:58 pm

SonGohan-san wrote:Yeah, about the Kaioushin planet, I use that excuse too. But that's my whole point, you're not really sure, are you?

I mean, would it have killed everyone to take three seconds and have Goku say something like, "Wow, I can get here, I guess its between the real world and the afterworld." But he's never that specific, so unfortunately, we are left guessing. And this sort of thing is prevalent throughout the entire Buu era.

Well, you're right, we don't get any specific information regarding where Kaioushin's planet actually is (as far as I can remember, anyway). Hell, for all we know, it could be in some godly realm in neither the living world or the afterlife.

Gohan does assume himself dead when he wakes up on Kaioushin's planet, so it's possible Toriyama had it in mind. But yeah, there isn't any concrete information, though it would make for a sensible explanation.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:00 pm

I do agree with you about the whole "death" thing.

At first, Toriyama obviously wanted to make sure that the dragonballs didn't completely remove the fear of death. Hence the whole "you can only die once rule". But then he had to work around that in order to bring back Yamcha, Tenshinhan and co, hence the Namek Dragonballs.

Unfortunatly, with these, it just becomes a bit silly. Even if a bad guy threatens to blow up the planet, they could just use the Namek balls to bring back the planet and Kami/Dende, and then use them to bring back the people. The only time that the dragonballs would really be useless is if the bad guy threatened to destroy the entire universe, and I'm still not sure why then someone didn't make a wish like "send him a billion trillion zillion years into the future", or "drop him in a black hole".

On the teleportation thing, Goku also transported himself to the Cell Ring, just by locking onto Cell. What are the odds that he'd happened to have wandered over that part of the planet before, eh?

And to sum up, I think SomeRandomGuy said it best...

Gokou is running along Snake Way, attempting to reach the secluded home of the great King Kai so that he can train with him and be powerful enough to defeat the Saiyans who are at this very moment traveling towards the planet Earth.

Gokou: Ironically, if I hadn't died, I wouldn't have been able to get this training, and then when the Saiyans came I would almost definitely lose. Dragon Ball Z is the first series where death is not only something utterly superficial and temporary which there is no reason to fear, but it's actually a GOOD thing. Hey, who am I talking to? Oh well. (continues running along)

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:53 pm

Great post. I was actually going to start a thread commenting about that very same issue. Good thing Goku let go of Raditzu's tail afterall.

Perhaps Kami would have thought of SOMETHING though. We'll never know.

Did Goku ever get to the time travel training in Kami's Palace that the others did? I don't think so. But yeah, that's something that's bothered me as well.

On another note (this deserves its own thread, I think), do guys notice how for a while the other Z members are always stronger than Goku had been after doing the same training?

Example: After climbing Karin's tower, Kuririn, and Tienshinhan are stronger than Goku was after he did it.

Same with Kaiou-samma's training, although them defeating the Ginyu was filler, I realize. But keep in mind it takes them less time to get to Kaiou's planet in the first place.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:08 pm

It's similar to how SSJ Trunks is much stronger than SSJ Goku was when he first arrives on Earth.

But then Goku turns up and is (for no apparent reason) now stronger than Trunks.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:14 pm

Ah, a somerandomguy fan. Did you use some web archive to find that, or are you just really, really, really good at remembering things? (assuming that's the exact thing he said anyway, I'm too lazy to check)

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:35 pm

I just thought of something...

I wonder if you even have to be dead to train in the afterlife. Afterall, Goku teleports to Kaiou's a couple of times despite the fact he's alive. Perhaps, since Kami can go between words like Baba can, he could have taken Goku with him to persuade Yama to allow him passage to the Serpant Path, even if he had lived through the Raditzu ordeal. Makes sense to me anyways. The death thing could have just been a convinent coincidence.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:22 am

The Wayback Machine is your friend, Zacky boy.

And that's a fair point, SGS. Of course, it would have been nicer if Kami had done all that stuff before Raditz had shown up. But that would violate the Goku and co must always be at roughly the same power level as the current bad guy (with Goku's friends usually being just a shade weaker).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:34 pm

I'd still like to know both how Goku can just rome around wherever even though he's "dead" or "dead part 1" or whatever. He just teleports to Kaioushins planet despite his "dead" status and despite the fact he has never been to the planet. And don't say something like, "Oh, he was locking on to Gohan's ki." That's nonsense. Goku even explains earlier that he can only teleport to somewhere where he had previously been.

You're just a LITTLE mixed up: Goku said he CANNOT teleport to somewhere where he doesn't know anybody. The reason being is because if you've never sensed their ki before, you can't teleport next to them. Hence the places he's already been theory DOES work because he probably knows people there at that time. I know I know: "what about when he got Dende from New Namek?" Toriyama fixed this by having him look for ki similar to Piccolo (i.e. Namekian) and voila.

As for teleporting to Kaioshinkai, it's explained in the daizenshuu only that Kaioshinkai is "outside" of the universe. The universe is made up of the realm of the Kaios on top, then Enma's palace, "next" to Enma is Heaven with the living universe under it and Hell under that. Under Enma at the very bottom is the realm of demons/chaos (where Dabura is from).

Beside this 00berverse is a "miniverse", if you will, with what appears to be 9 unmentioned planets. The center planet is Kaioshinkai. Confused? I am. Maybe since this miniverse is NEXT to Enma's palace (where all the dead show up) it's considered a realm of the dead or a real for the dead AND living.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:41 pm

PsyLiam wrote:The Wayback Machine is your friend, Zacky boy.

web.archive.org, then. That's the stuff I use. Zacky boy? I get called anything but Zackarotto. Funny, huh? Zacko, Zackman, Zackage, Zackyboy, the list is pretty long.

Oh, and where do you get 9 planets, Dayspring? Did you just count 9 from a screencap or something, or can you be absolutely sure that it's 9 with your method?

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:46 pm

SonGohan-san wrote:While I do remember Goku explaining that to Vegita (and knew someone would bring that part up and I'm glad you did), it still doesn't address what Kaiou-samma had told the Z warriors early in the series about death-- that you can't die twice. Besides that, am I the only one here that thinks dying twice (once in body, the next in spirit) is completely retarded and reeks of nothing more than... do I dare say it?...yes I will... laziness in writing? I mean, it's like they took out the consequences of dying (as if the Dragon Balls didn't do that already). The death scenes become sterile if you know you'll just see them again, anyways. But back to the Vegita out of existence idea. Even the manner in which Goku explained the concept to Vegita was half-assed and thrown together, "Oh...by the way, Vegita, be careful this time because if he kills you again, you really will be screwed this time." He just says it almost as an afterthought, real nonchalant-like considering the ramifications. You'd think he'd tell him BEFORE the battle at least. And while they did give a reason, my rant was more of a complaint on how over the top the series had grown by the end of the Buu Saga, not so much that reasons were never provided (because many times they were not, hence the "and we won't explain anything" comment).

Vegeta already knew about that before the battle began, Goku was merely reminding him. When Goku was fighting Buu as SSJ3, right after Vegeta had his monologue about Goku, Vegeta came over to them when the fight paused. He commented to Goku that he knew Goku intended to finish Buu, that Goku knew he didn't stand a chance in Hell. Goku hastily responded that that wasn't true and Vegeta cut him off telling Goku not to spare his feelings, that they both know that he would just get killed. But yeah, I do understand the loss of death's significance. When I first saw Kuririn's death in the Freeza saga, it had a ton of impact. When I saw him kick the bucket later in the Buu saga, I was pretty amblivilant. I think that part of it is the methods and situations surrounding each death. Vegeta's deaths had impact, as well as Kuririn's first, second, and fourth (0_0), so them being restored doesn't totally remove the effect.

As for Vegeta dying twice in a row... I understand what you mean. I think it would've been better to keep those that were already dead immortal. Vegeta wouldn't have been able to fight Kid Buu, but his test of courage would have been to remain on his feet as long as possible and keep Kid Buu's attention on him. That, however, would've completely eliminated Majin Vegeta, since Vegeta would've known that he couldn't kill Goku. That would've messed up the plot they already had. My best theory concerning the spirit dying is that the body becomes a manifestation of the spirit (thus the halo) and when the body dies, so does the spirit. When restored to life, a new body is formed and the spirit inhabits it.

Yeah, I know the series kind've... lost track at times. I too wish that the writers and Toriyama had put a bit more effort into the story and keeping the plot sound. Majin Buu was a pink blob with no goals, little personality, and about as much brains as the Haiya Dragon. A rather large step down from Vegeta and Freeza. -_-

Zackarotto wrote:Zacky boy? I get called anything but Zackarotto. Funny, huh? Zacko, Zackman, Zackage, Zackyboy, the list is pretty long.

Zacker.
Zacky.
Zsycho Zacko.
Za-carrot.
Zackal.
Zacked.
Zacking.
....

The list can't be that long. I can't think of any beyond these few. ^_^

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:02 pm

Oh, and where do you get 9 planets, Dayspring? Did you just count 9 from a screencap or something, or can you be absolutely sure that it's 9 with your method?

Actually the picture in the diagram has (about) 9 white dots around a grey dot (which we are told is Kaioshinkai). I figured they were all uninhabited, unimportant planets. On a second thought they're probably just stars in this "miniverse" with the closest being Kaioshinkai's sun(s).

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:29 pm

Once again, I feel obliged to post a quote from ''Dragon Ball: Cut'':

[Kami teleports Goku to his sanctuary on Earth, after he came back from Snake Way]

GOKU: Alright, where is... Huh? Why aren't we at the battle?

KAMI: Well, this is where I'm going to stay, and I didn't want to bother teleporting twice.

GOKU: What!?! You moron!!

------

Why did I do it? I do not know.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:42 pm

Alias wrote:Zacker.
Zacky.
Zsycho Zacko.
Za-carrot.
Zackal.
Zacked.
Zacking.
....

The list can't be that long. I can't think of any beyond these few. ^_^

Use your imagination! Such as Zaxor, or Zackatar. This is MB stuff as well as things I am called in real life... My friend's dad comes up with a new one every day.

Edit: Want some more? Zackaroonie, Zackattack, Zachariah, Zachariah Springfield, ZackonCrack...

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:47 pm

You're called "Zackarotto" in real life?

Your parents are cruel, cruel people.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:54 pm

Yeah, right. My real name is Zack, but nobody calls me that either. Of course Zackarotto comes from Kakarotto. Mind you, I've never created one name for myself, ever. Zackarotto is just the name I was called a FEW times that I liked the most, so that's kinda like my main nickname. Nobody calls me it these days, though. That's what I'm saying.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:10 pm

No-one believes your lies, Zakarotto. Your name shall go down in history as an example of why anime fans should not be allowed to mate.

(God, I've just got an image in my head of a fusion between Zack from Saved By The Bell, and Goku. It's an evil, evil image. Although it probably would have improved SBTB a lot. Especially if he'd have destroyed Screech.)

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:15 pm

And that right there is where the name Zackman comes from. Although I never really watched SBTB... This is off topic now.

...Yeah, so, hows about thems SSJ4's, eh?

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:47 pm

[quote="PsyLiam"]

(God, I've just got an image in my head of a fusion between Zack from Saved By The Bell, and Goku. [quote]

Ah, that explains why Gokuu can go blonde ^_^ He's been fused with an early 90s TV character all along!

Nekoni · Post by **Nekoni** » Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:01 am

Nekoni: Eh! *tries to remmber what she was going to say*

*snaps fingers*

I KNOW! *coughs* Maybe you CAN'T tecnically die twice- but you can cease the exist!

*looks at the confused peeps*

okay- scenario!

----------------

Vegeta: *Struggling to stand* you can't kill me... I'm already dead...

Buu: Buuuuuehh..... *has an idea* BUUU HAHAHAHHAHAHA *forms a giant ki ball and throws it at Vegeta*

Vegeta: *is vaporised- no longer has a body or soul*

Goku: ... I warned him, shame my dub voice wasn't as concerned as my japanese one, might have made him stop and think...

----------------

Nekoni: Yah get it!? I think that works, ne? *grins* if you want, I can also explain why Goku is adult as ssj4- you see his pow-

Vegetto: *walks in, grabs her by the hair, drags her out*

Kanzenshuu

Opinion on SSJ4

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