Goku Super Kaio-ken(x??)

Lucas Abner · Post by **Lucas Abner** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:03 pm

What would (have) happen(ed) if Goku used the technique "Super Kaio-ken" against Cell?

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:12 pm

He'd probably explode due to the amount of stress on his living body.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:30 pm

He wouldn't have because it's filler.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:08 pm

Nothing different, since he used a straight on full power Kamehameha at Cell's face, and Cell survived that.
And any other time in the battle, Cell would have avoided it (which was the reason Goku had to use the Shunkan Idou).

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:09 pm

I don't remember Goku vs Paikuhan very well, but if Goku's only capable of using the "Super Kaio-Ken" in bursts as he should, then it probably wouldn't have helped much against Cell. It'd be like having Super Saiyan 2, but only having it for intervals of five seconds. Quick potshots aren't going to do lasting damage against someone like Cell who can regenerate and stuff.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:13 pm

Goku adapted his Super Saiyan form into his regular, base form by the time of the Cell Games. I don't really see why he couldn't have used the Kaio-ken to amplify his strength; This seemed to work just fine for him in the Saiyan arc. If FPSSJ was his natural strength, the Kaio-ken should be a cakewalk.

Post by **TheDevilsCorpse** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Kaboom wrote:I don't remember Goku vs Paikuhan very well, but if Goku's only capable of using the "Super Kaio-Ken" in bursts as he should, then it probably wouldn't have helped much against Cell. It'd be like having Super Saiyan 2, but only having it for intervals of five seconds. Quick potshots aren't going to do lasting damage against someone like Cell who can regenerate and stuff.

Especially since the toll on your body will likely add up faster than the damage to the opponent.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:48 pm

So...wait. [The equivalent of Super Saiyan 2 Goku] fighting Perfect Cell (in the suppressed state that he was, let alone at full power) wouldn't do any significant and/or lasting damage to him? Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's punches and kicks sure as heck did lasting-enough damage to Cell, and this was when the kid was barely even trying. Goku would only require time enough to use a Kamehameha, if that. Then it's gg for Cell.

Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:58 pm

Super Saiyan 2 lasted as long as Gohan could maintain it, and had no drawbacks. Kaio-Ken would only work in short bursts and be harmful to Goku at the same time. Goku probably couldn't keep up the required power long enough to completely finish Cell off.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:45 am

Goku would only need to pull off a single (ki-based) attack. Time restraints or bodily harm (assuming that a normal Kaio-ken would even cause him bodily harm in the first place) wouldn't be a factor for him if his opponent is entire leagues below his own power. We're talking about someone who hypothetically possesses strength comparable to that of SSJ2 Kid Gohan's, right? Couldn't Gohan have ended Perfect Cell's life at his leisure? If so, then Super Kaio-ken Goku should be able to do so in a snap. Goku's fighting someone even weaker than Gohan was.

All of this, of course, is assuming that Goku doesn't completely waste his Super Kaio-ken like he did with Pikkon.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:05 am

Savage68 wrote:Goku adapted his Super Saiyan form into his regular, base form by the time of the Cell Games. I don't really see why he couldn't have used the Kaio-ken to amplify his strength; This seemed to work just fine for him in the Saiyan arc. If FPSSJ was his natural strength, the Kaio-ken should be a cakewalk.

But if Goku had supposedly reached the limit of the first SSJ stage, the Kaio-ken may not have any effect on his battle power.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:08 am

Yeah, but we know that it boosts his strength quite a bit in the non-canon DBU. Since the attack is non-canon to begin with, we're applying it to the canon DBU. Otherwise, this topic would be pointless...

I honestly don't think it would matter, anyway. Kaio-ken never really had anything to do with limits; It only amplified the power that was already there.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:19 am

Savage68 wrote:Yeah, but we know that it boosts his strength quite a bit in the non-canon DBU. Since the attack is non-canon to begin with, we're applying it to the canon DBU. Otherwise, this topic would be pointless...

I honestly don't think it would matter, anyway. Kaio-ken never really had anything to do with limits; It only amplified the power that was already there.

It certainly increased his speed, not so sure about strength though.

It's not like Goku was anywhere near his base's limit that early in the series anyways.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:48 am

Son_Gohan wrote:It certainly increased his speed, not so sure about strength though.

His Super Kaio-ken punch did more damage to Pikkon than any other attack of his, barring (maybe) his final Kamehameha.

Son_Gohan wrote:It's not like Goku was anywhere near his base's limit that early in the series anyways.

It wouldn't have mattered if he was or if he wasn't, because the Kaio-ken isn't based on internal power. That's how the Saiyan transformations operate, but not an outside power amplifier like the Kaio-ken.

lash · Post by **lash** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:16 am

Assuming SSj2 is 2x the ki as SSj1, and Super Kaioken giving a minimum of a 2x the ki as SSJ1 (as it's just Kaioken while in SSj form)... then depending on how well Goku decides to use it, it can easily kill Cell. The toll on the body doesn't matter much, as Goku is faster and stronger and would just do away with Cell in moments. A quick, well-placed warp Kamehameha with Super Kaioken would annihilate Cell without any issues.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:50 pm

Savage68 wrote: His Super Kaio-ken punch did more damage to Paikuhan than any other attack of his, barring (maybe) his final Kamehameha.

It didn't pay dividends at all, Paikuhan popped back up in seconds and hit Goku by surprise.

It's only significance is being one of the few shots he actually landed on him.

Savage68 wrote: It wouldn't have mattered if he was or if he wasn't, because the Kaio-ken isn't based on internal power. That's how the Saiyan transformations operate, but not an outside power amplifier like the Kaio-ken.

The Kaio-ken is a variant of Ki manipulation which is under the user's control and dependent on their own capabilities.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your perspective on it; how do you think it works?

Goku100xKamehameha · Post by **Goku100xKamehameha** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:08 pm

I do believe that Super Kaioken is a result of the combined SSJ and Kaioken 50x. So yes! even if it's only 5 seconds, he still could have defeated Cell if he use an attack that completely destroyed Cell.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:07 am

Son_Gohan wrote:It didn't pay dividends at all, Paikuhan popped back up in seconds and hit Goku by surprise.

It's only significance is being one of the few shots he actually landed on him.

...Wha? For one, the Super Kaio-ken is what broke Goku out of the Hyper Tornado, so unless you think the key to dismantling that attack is speed, Goku got stronger there. Pikkon had been making Goku look like a fool since he removed his weights, and Goku's SKK punch very clearly fatigued him and he even stated something along the lines of, "I - I'm impressed you could take it this far. You're better than I thought," citing the SKK punch that was delivered to him.

Son_Gohan wrote:The Kaio-ken is a variant of Ki manipulation which is under the user's control and dependent on their own capabilities.

Yes, I know. Again, it's "dependent on the user's capabilities" in the sense that it amplifies their full (base) strength. It has absolutely nothing to do with the user's personal limits of power. Super Kaio-ken Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku; There's no way for you to dance around that. There's a single example of this technique to base ideas off of, and in that example, Goku didn't just become faster (which would also be rising above his limits); Everything was amplified.

Son_Gohan · Post by **Son_Gohan** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:36 am

Savage68 wrote: ...Wha? For one, the Super Kaio-ken is what broke Goku out of the Hyper Tornado, so unless you think the key to dismantling that attack is speed, Goku got stronger there. Paikuhan had been making Goku look like a fool since he removed his weights, and Goku's SKK punch very clearly fatigued him and he even stated something along the lines of, "I - I'm impressed you could take it this far. You're better than I thought," citing the SKK punch that was delivered to him.

I suggest you watch it again, he used the Super Kaio-ken after he broke out of the tornado and after taking the punch, Paikuhan had no visible damage, nor did he make any remarks on it.

Savage68 wrote: Yes, I know. Again, it's "dependent on the user's capabilities" in the sense that it amplifies their full (base) strength. It has absolutely nothing to do with the user's personal limits of power. Super Kaio-ken Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku; There's no way for you to dance around that. There's a single example of this technique to base ideas off of, and in that example, Goku didn't just become faster (which would also be rising above his limits); Everything was amplified.

Well where do you think that extra Ki comes from, thin air?

That's his Ki he's manipulating, it takes only from what he's potentially capable of, much the same as Gohan's anger boost. The only thing evidently demonstrated to increase was his speed, which also isn't essentially linked with battle power. You're claiming that he had increased in a variety of ways and yet I see no evidence to base that on.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:56 am

Son_Gohan wrote:I suggest you watch it again, he used the Super Kaio-ken after he broke out of the tornado

I stand corrected.

and after taking the punch, Paikuhan had no visible damage, nor did he make any remarks on it.

Sure he did, since that was the only damage he had taken up to that point (why you'd need to see damage from a character being punched in the face, I don't know). What did you think he was talking about, Goku's barrage of poorly-aimed ki blasts? The ki blast that was snuffed out? Goku's performance prior to and following the SKK punch was underwhelming, and none of it would've warranted a compliment.

Well where do you think that extra Ki comes from, thin air?

Yes. Ki, by definition, "comes from thin air." And if we're to take what you're saying seriously, the SSK would've changed nothing for Goku's abilities. Assuming that he was so hopelessly fixed at his SSJ1 level, that means his power, speed and every other stat of his was already optimized, yet you're trying to say that the Kaio-ken selected only one of those attributes to work on. And since when was speed not essentially liked with [strength]? Speed always increases along with strength, unless it's otherwise stated.

Kanzenshuu

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