Who beat Frieza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
LeprikanGT
I Live Here
Posts: 3398
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:58 pm
Location: Namek
Contact:

Who beat Frieza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by LeprikanGT » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:13 pm

Was it Goku? If so wouldn't Trunks have known he wouldn't have had to step in and take care of Frieza himself, thus changing the timeline already....or did anywhere in the manga/anime explain that part?

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14151
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Kaboom » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:15 pm

LeprikanGT wrote:Was it Goku? If so wouldn't Trunks have known he wouldn't have had to step in and take care of Freeza himself, thus changing the timeline already....or did anywhere in the manga/anime explain that part?
Yep, it was Goku. In Trunks' timeline he apparently teleported to Earth once Freeza arrived, and took out both him and King Cold. Trunks didn't know about Goku's Instant Movement, though, so he thought there had been some sort of timeline change. Thus he stepped in, but if not Goku would have teleported and taken action as originally.
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader

We Gotta Power >>>>> Cha-La Head Cha-La. Fight me.
If Super wanted to be "canon," then it should have been good.
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:41 pm

It's like Kaboom said. I think the manga explains it clearly.

Goku: "I want to thank you...for defeating Freeza and his men. I was too soft on him... I should have finished him on planet Namek."
Trunks: "You were meant to defeat him, but for some reason there was a time discrepancy, and you couldn't. So I had to intervene."
Goku: "Yeah... His spaceship was faster than mine and he beat me here. I was planning to clobber him for good this time, but then you came along..."
Trunks: "You still had three hours until your arrival. You couldn't have made it."
Goku: "Well...maybe, but...I learned a new skill."
Trunks: "A new skill...?"
Goku: "Yeah... What they call teleportation."
Trunks: "Teleportation?!"
Goku: "Some guys on planet Yadrat taught me. They're mysterious... Not much strength, but they know a lot of weird stuff."
Trunks: "Th-then... I changed history for no reason..."

I guess the question that remains is why Bulma never told Trunks about Goku's teleportation skill. Maybe Goku never showed it to everyone in Trunks' timeline? Or maybe Bulma forgot or didn't think it was important.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Fox666 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:23 pm

Bulma doesn't know much about Goku's techniques. Would she be able to tell Trunks anything about the Kaio-ken and that stuff?

And afterall Goku stayed for a few years before dying.

User avatar
Hellspawn28
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 14026
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:50 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:54 pm

I'm pretty sure Goku killed both Freeza and Cold just as fast as Trunks did. I doubt Goku went all out against Freeza on Earth like he did on Namke.
PS4 username: Guyver_Spawn_27
MAL Profile: http://myanimelist.net/profile/Hellspawn28
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/GS27/

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:12 am

Fox666 wrote:Bulma doesn't know much about Goku's techniques. Would she be able to tell Trunks anything about the Kaio-ken and that stuff?
Bulma was the one who asked him what new techniques he learned in the manga-timeline, and Goku demonstrated teleportation for her and everyone else. And it's not like it's an unimportant detail; they knew to tell Trunks exactly where Goku's pod would land, but left out that Goku teleported to the battle and thus wasn't in it when it landed?
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Fox666 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:33 am

Trunks commented that Goku wouldn't came in time, and Goku said it was the teleport. Wasn't like that?

Either way that would not have happened in the future...

User avatar
cpd12589
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by cpd12589 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:52 am

Goku definitely killed Mecha Frieza and King Cold in Future Trunks's timeline but Future Trunks obviously didn't know what happened in great detail otherwise he probably wouldn't have risked seeing all the other Z Fighters and Bulma. It is strange that Future Gohan didn't tell Future Trunks about Goku's IT and how he arrived just in time to take out Mecha Frieza and King Cold.

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:05 am

Fox666 wrote:Trunks commented that Goku wouldn't came in time, and Goku said it was the teleport. Wasn't like that?

Either way that would not have happened in the future...
Do you mean that the conversation between Trunks and Goku wouldn't have happened? Of course not, but this one...

Vegeta: "I know you... You wouldn't just leave without gaining something... They have no strength, but they use strange techniques. I'll bet you were learning from them...!"
Goku: "Bingo! You're no dummy, Vegeta."
Kuririn: "I get it! That's why you didn't come back until now!"
Bulma: "So what kind of techniques were they?! Show us!!"
*Goku shows them teleportation.*

This should still have happened. And I notice you're ignoring that they apparently knew where Goku's ship landed, but left out that he wasn't in it. Didn't they know? Why didn't they know?
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7771
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:13 am

Bussani wrote:This should still have happened. And I notice you're ignoring that they apparently knew where Goku's ship landed, but left out that he wasn't in it. Didn't they know? Why didn't they know?
20 years had gone by, Bulma was getting a little senile :P

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:23 am

Bussani wrote:I guess the question that remains is why Bulma never told Trunks about Goku's teleportation skill. Maybe Goku never showed it to everyone in Trunks' timeline? Or maybe Bulma forgot or didn't think it was important.
Yeah, I'd go with the theory that Bulma had a brain fart and forgot when telling Trunks what to do before he went back in time. Or perhaps Bulma never knew that Goku used Instant Movement to teleport and defeat Freeza and King Cold, and then a long time later (when Bulma would've forgotten the time Goku defeated Freeza and King Cold), Bulma discovered Goku's spacepod one day, worked out the time it got there and assumed Goku landed in his spacepod and they never saw it land.

Or maybe Trunks or Cell's time travel mucked up the timeline and the conversation that led up to Goku showing everyone Instant Movement never happened. Of course, it should've happened, but you know...time travel's weird.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Fox666 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:37 pm

Bussani wrote:And I notice you're ignoring that they apparently knew where Goku's ship landed, but left out that he wasn't in it. Didn't they know? Why didn't they know?
If Trunks knew the time the space pod would arrive because he was told in the future, he wouldn't think that the time Goku would came changed.

So I assume his time machines had some device that calculated Goku's space pod arrival, like Freeza's ship. Otherwise it's a plot hole.....

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by the_abberration » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:07 pm

Fox666 wrote:
Bussani wrote:And I notice you're ignoring that they apparently knew where Goku's ship landed, but left out that he wasn't in it. Didn't they know? Why didn't they know?
If Trunks knew the time the space pod would arrive because he was told in the future, he wouldn't think that the time Goku would came changed.

So I assume his time machines had some device that calculated Goku's space pod arrival, like Freeza's ship. Otherwise it's a plot hole.....
Or quite simply, in Trunks time line Goku didn't use IT and he and Freeza landed about the same time. Events happening differently in the manga timeline was just a reflection of how Trunks' and Cell's appearance was altering that time.
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7771
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by dbgtFO » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:14 pm

the_abberration wrote:Or quite simply, in Trunks time line Goku didn't use IT and he and Freeza landed about the same time. Events happening differently in the manga timeline was just a reflection of how Trunks' and Cell's appearance was altering that time.
No! The ship was delayed and such a random difference would have been pointed out. The story through Goku's lines imply, that Goku teleported to Earth to fight Freeza, before he made his move.

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by the_abberration » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:43 pm

dbgtFO wrote:No! The ship was delayed and such a random difference would have been pointed out. The story through Goku's lines imply, that Goku teleported to Earth to fight Freeza, before he made his move.
There is nothing to dictate that because Goku did it in the manga timeline, it happened exactly the same way in Trunks' time. For all we know, Goku and Freeza could have arrived at the same time, or Goku could have been the one to arrive ahead of Freeza. Also, it could have been the battle with Freeza and King Cold (vs #19 & #20 in the manga time line) that brought about Goku's heart virus and he died not long after. Which is why he never used IT in front of or told anyone he learned it.

The fact that Trunks' does not have that knowledge, when it seems it would have been something that Gohan and Bulma would have mentioned is implication that something may have happened to prevent Goku from revealing that ability.
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:13 pm

the_abberration wrote:The fact that Trunks' does not have that knowledge, when it seems it would have been something that Gohan and Bulma would have mentioned is implication that something may have happened to prevent Goku from revealing that ability.
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Or maybe Trunks or Cell's time travel mucked up the timeline and the conversation that led up to Goku showing everyone Instant Movement never happened. Of course, it should've happened, but you know...time travel's weird.
I find that hard to imagine. He was so quick to tell everyone who would listen in the manga timeline. Why was he so secretive in Trunks' timeline? :lol:
Fox666 wrote:If Trunks knew the time the space pod would arrive because he was told in the future, he wouldn't think that the time Goku would came changed.
He never actually said that he thought Goku's arrival time had changed, only that there was a discrepancy so he couldn't be the one to beat Freeza. If Goku's arrival time was as expected, then he must have thought Freeza was early.
So I assume his time machines had some device that calculated Goku's space pod arrival, like Freeza's ship.
I guess that's possible, but it still brings us to the same problem: for some reason, Bulma gave him practically no information on how events played out. It's like she just said, "This is the date. You'll figure it out." Which is weird if his plan was to only meet Goku and not interfere with anything else...
the_abberration wrote:Or quite simply, in Trunks time line Goku didn't use IT and he and Freeza landed about the same time. Events happening differently in the manga timeline was just a reflection of how Trunks' and Cell's appearance was altering that time.
Again, possible, but...that's like the time travel version of "a wizard did it". Besides, I think the conversation between Goku and Trunks implies the exact opposite--that Trunks changed how things were meant to play out by stepping in. I guess he could have been mistaken, but I prefer not to ignore things the author implied if possible.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by the_abberration » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:40 am

Bussani wrote:I find that hard to imagine. He was so quick to tell everyone who would listen in the manga timeline. Why was he so secretive in Trunks' timeline? :lol:
Simple. That is if you go with the theory that the fight in the manga between #19 & #20 triggered the heart virus. Take the fight that Goku had with #19 & #20 in the manga and sub it with Freeza and Cold in the original one (since chronologically speaking that fight would have taken place first in Trunks' time line). Freeza and Goku land on Earth. Since they landed approximately around the same time, Goku wasn't able to tell the others about IT (and since he wasn't running late there would be no need to use IT). During the fight with Freeza and Cold, Goku suffers from the heart virus and collapes. Since there was no Trunks to warn him, no medicine, and no SSJ Vegeta to intercede he slipped into a coma and died.

If you take the medicine out of the equation in the manga time line, then Goku would have died not long after his fight with #19 & #20. So it would be plausible that the same could have happened in the original time line, since Trunks does mention in the manga that Goku dies not long after his fight with Freeza.
Bussani wrote:Again, possible, but...that's like the time travel version of "a wizard did it".
Think about this. Freeza and Cold die in both time lines, but under different circumstances. Goku suffers the heart disease and dies in both time lines, but under different circumstances. Gohan goes SSJ, but under different circumstances. Dr Gero dies in both time lines (quite possibly under different circumstances). While events did play out in both time lines, the timing and circumstances of those events were thrown off.

So if Goku didn't IT in the manga time line due to Trunks' interference, couldn't it be possible that the Goku of the original timeline did not teleport as well, due to different circumstances and timing (he was acutally going to land at the same time as Freeza)? And that the timing was thrown off in the manga time line to keep the similarity (time's way of self correcting for Trunks interference)?

If you think about it, Trunks' could have avoided most of this by just showing up after Goku came to Earth and killed Freeza, since he had the location and time of the pod's landing. Also, wouldn't it have been just as easy for Goku to teleport over to Freeza's ship before it landed in the original time line (or in the manga) if he was going to be late? Again this implies that Goku may not have needed to use IT.
Bussani wrote:Besides, I think the conversation between Goku and Trunks implies the exact opposite--that Trunks changed how things were meant to play out by stepping in. I guess he could have been mistaken, but I prefer not to ignore things the author implied if possible.
I think Mr. Toriyama meant that conversation to be about what Goku would have done in the manga time line, to reinforce Trunks' theory of throwing off the timing of things by changing the past.
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:35 am

I'm just going to be brutally honest: none of that made a lick of sense to me. :?
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by the_abberration » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:04 pm

Bussani wrote:I'm just going to be brutally honest: none of that made a lick of sense to me. :?
Basically I was saying that it wasn't a wizard, it was a variation of the harmony and predestined time line theories. Someone alters events and prevents a death, only to have outside forces self correct by claiming the one who should have died. If you've ever seen any of the Final Destination movies, it uses a similar principle. Or better still, if you've watched LOST, think about what happened with Desmond and Charlie

Applying this to time travel in DBZ, I'll give two examples.

Large scale. Even though Trunks travels back in time to prevent Goku's heart virus and death, Goku still suffers from the heart virus and later still ends up dying in the manga. Although the timing and situation (and in the case of how Goku died) were different, the results still happened. In both time lines Goku was predestined to have the heart virus and die regardless.

Small scale. In the original time line Goku never got to meet #17 & #18 in battle. Even though Trunks' alters the time line, Goku still never meets #17 & #18 in battle in the manga time line. Again this was a predestined event in both time lines. Even though events transpired differently between the time lines, Goku was never meant to meet them.

Using these two examples of how the manga plays out these points we were told by Trunks' occurring in his time, I believe that even though Goku tells Trunks about IT in the manga (implying that he could have used it in the original time line), since we are shown that Goku actually landed in the space pod in the spot and time that Trunks' informed the others he would, as well as not having any knowledge of IT prior to Goku telling him, it is highly likely that Goku was predestined to not use IT (to reach Earth) in both time lines.

Goku would have never had any conversation or had the opportunity to show IT in the original time line, because he would have landed on time, fought Freeza, got sick and collapse, and not long after, die.

I've probably confused you more. I'm sorry :(
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

Senzu_Bean
I Live Here
Posts: 2262
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Senzu_Bean » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:09 pm

It is the butterfly effect. The fact there was one people more at Earth at that time (Trunks) made Cold's spaceship arrive earlier than it did in Trunks' future.

Post Reply