Who beat Frieza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

[the_abberration]

If history is "predestined", you shouldn't be able to alter it. At all. The "course-correction" stuff in those examples you mentioned doesn't make sense, as it posits that some events have to happen

I never said you could not alter events. Trunks alter things in the manga. But while you may be able to alter certain events, there are other events that have to play out. Trunks creates a time line to save Goku's life and he still ends up dying. Goku was predestined to die. It may not make sense to you, but the fact remains that Goku dying in both time lines had to happen, and did happen.

[Olivier Hague]

I never said you could not alter events. Trunks alter things in the manga.

But Dragon Ball uses to a different model of time travel: multiple timelines. When Trunks goes back in time, he creates/ends up in a new timeline where he's perfectly free to alter anything he wants.

while you may be able to alter certain events, there are other events that have to play out.

Says who? ^^;

Again, that's the problem with the "course correction" stuff you often find in movies and such: apparently, someone/something gets to decide what is "important" and has to happen and what isn't. Not quite the kind of thing you'll find in actual scientific theories.
Now, that may be fine for fantasy: Final Destination basically is a slasher flick where the bogeyman is an invisible Grim Reaper with all the anthropocentric baggage that entails, and the whole thing is expositioned via a creepy mortician who's all "it's Death!! it's claiming its due!"', not a nerdy scientist in a lab coat who can't stop playing the science! angle with nonsensical references to quanta and muons. Lost, on the other hand...

Trunks creates a time line to save Goku's life and he still ends up dying. Goku was predestined to die. It may not make sense to you, but the fact remains that Goku dying in both time lines had to happen, and did happen.

There's no reason to believe Gokû was any more "predestined to die" than any other mortal creature. The fact he died in both timelines doesn't mean predestination was at work. That's faulty logic, sorry.

[Bussani]

@the_abberration: It's not that I didn't understand what you were trying to get at, but that I agree with Olivier on this: harmony theory and a wizard doing it are the same thing. And you don't need harmony theory when you already have multiple timelines. I also find it hard to believe that Goku was supposed to drop dead (or at least into a heart-attack induced coma) right after the fight with Freeza and Cold, but that's for totally different reasons. To each their own, though.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Actually, you would need to ignore the laws of physics and rewrite the basic example of the butterfly effect to something like "the flap of a butterfly's wings in Brazil can set off a tornado on Jupiter. Damn near instantly, too."

I'm gonna have to agree with Olivier here. (It figures you pop back up, only to talk about time travel once again. )

I never said you could not alter events. Trunks alter things in the manga. But while you may be able to alter certain events, there are other events that have to play out. Trunks creates a time line to save Goku's life and he still ends up dying. Goku was predestined to die. It may not make sense to you, but the fact remains that Goku dying in both time lines had to happen, and did happen.

That makes no sense. If Goku was predestined to die, what about Kuririn, Yamcha, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Vegeta and everybody else in Trunks's time line that died? What makes Goku special? (Dragon Ball time travel really doesn't work that way...)

[Attitudefan]

Wasn't Goku's heart virus late in the manga timeline? Wasn't it supposed to happen earlier and that's why Trunks gave him the medicine after Freeza? Goku died before the Androids even showed up in the Trunks timeline.

[Zephyr]

Maybe Goku teleported his pod with him to the skies above Earth, right at that exact spot?

[Bussani]

Wasn't Goku's heart virus late in the manga timeline? Wasn't it supposed to happen earlier and that's why Trunks gave him the medicine after Freeza? Goku died before the Androids even showed up in the Trunks timeline.

Yes.

Maybe Goku teleported his pod with him to the skies above Earth, right at that exact spot?

There would have to be a ki Goku knew right there for him to teleport to it.

[Zephyr]

Maybe Goku teleported his pod with him to the skies above Earth, right at that exact spot?

There would have to be a ki Goku knew right there for him to teleport to it.

Yeah that's true, forgot about that.

[Attitudefan]

Bussani, thanks. I guess he would have got it couple of weeks/months after Freeza showed up.

[the_abberration]

Or he could/would have suffered from it during his fight with Freeza and Cold or moments after.

Trunk’s statement of “not long from now” is very subjective. While one could say it took weeks or months for him to suffer from it after the Freeza battle, Goku could have suffered it seconds, minutes or even hours after the fight with Freeza.

For example, I can say “not long from now” after this post, I’m going to get up from the computer and make a turkey sandwich. Can you tell me exactly how long after I did it, or is your time line based on what you personally think? It could have taken me minutes or hours. Maybe I didn’t make it until 3 days because something stopped me, and I didn’t have a taste for one until I made another post. From what we see in the manga, as to how it affected Goku, it seemed to come on very quickly when it did happen.

The heart virus is a medical condition. As such, it could lay dormant until certain events trigger it. It could be possible that during a real battle, Goku produced certain chemicals in the body that triggered the attack. Preventing the fight with Freeza and Cold removed those conditions, only to have them met later during his battle with #19 & #20. For example, an epileptic seizure can be triggered by strobe lighting. Trunks’ inadvertently prevented Goku seeing that light (Freeza and Cold) only to have the lighting replaced when he faced #19 & #20.

I don’t think that Trunks’ just warning Goku that he would have the heart virus caused it to go into remission. On top of that, he even has the additional three years of training in the manga. Yet he doesn’t suffer from the heart virus until the confrontation with #19 & #20. The only thing that seems to be different is that the fight with Freeza and Cold never happened, which is why Goku doesn’t suffer from the virus until later. If he had fought them IMO, he would have been affected by the virus the same way we see him affected in the manga.

[Attitudefan]

The heart virus is a medical condition. As such, it could lay dormant until certain events trigger it. It could be possible that during a real battle, Goku produced certain chemicals in the body that triggered the attack. Preventing the fight with Freeza and Cold removed those conditions, only to have them met later during his battle with #19 & #20. For example, an epileptic seizure can be triggered by strobe lighting. Trunks’ inadvertently prevented Goku seeing that light (Freeza and Cold) only to have the lighting replaced when he faced #19 & #20.

I don’t think that Trunks’ just warning Goku that he would have the heart virus caused it to go into remission. On top of that, he even has the additional three years of training in the manga. Yet he doesn’t suffer from the heart virus until the confrontation with #19 & #20. The only thing that seems to be different is that the fight with Freeza and Cold never happened, which is why Goku doesn’t suffer from the virus until later. If he had fought them IMO, he would have been affected by the virus the same way we see him affected in the manga.

Yeah that makes sense. The battle triggers the heart virus because maybe he is tense so his heart beats faster etc. That's probably why Trunks didn't hesitate to give Goku the medicine, the virus could attack whenever and probably really soon(It ended up being quite some time later, like 3 years). Goku could have also used the medicine beforehand which caused the cancer like virus t go into remission in the manga time-line.
Did Goku take the medicine before hand?

[Masa95000]

I think that Trunks considered that him just being there had altered the time line. He didn't want to take any chances so he just killed Frieza. But I'm pretty sure Goku would've used his Instant Transmission technique to arrive in time.

[Olivier Hague]

Or he could/would have suffered from it during his fight with Freeza and Cold or moments after.

'Didn't look like Trunks was expecting Gokû to collapse right then and there though.

The only thing that seems to be different is that the fight with Freeza and Cold never happened

Also, Gokû had a big fight to look forward to, and he trained for years with Piccolo and Gohan (who probably spent all that time studying, in the original timeline)...

[Bussani]

Or he could/would have suffered from it during his fight with Freeza and Cold or moments after.

Trunk’s statement of “not long from now” is very subjective. While one could say it took weeks or months for him to suffer from it after the Freeza battle, Goku could have suffered it seconds, minutes or even hours after the fight with Freeza.

I was going to just leave it at, "I disagree," but I'll explain why I think this is unlikely. First of all, Trunks' plan was to talk to Goku in private and not meet everyone else. If Goku was supposed to have the heart attack during/right after the fight, what was he going to do? Sneakily give him the medicine without anyone looking, then wait for him to get better so he can get him aside and warn him about the Androids? Secondly, upon his return three years later, Trunks expresses surprise that the time of Goku's virus appearing had changed; if he was meant to get it after fighting Freeza, he should have already known that it had changed. You could argue that he was just surprised that it took so long to appear, I suppose, but that's not what he said. Much like how he didn't say, "You were meant to be having a heart attack right now!" It all just seems like too much of a stretch to me.

Edit: Besides all that, Goku was already showing symptoms of the disease before the fighting even started. Tenshinhan comments that Goku looks out of breath just from flying.

Did Goku take the medicine before hand?

No. Trunks told him to take the medicine when the symptoms appear; Gohan says that he never got sick, thus never used the medicine.

[Attitudefan]

I see. I guess the heart virus was supposed to happen during a fight but because Goku never fought Freeza again he ended up fighting #19 and that triggered it.

[the_abberration]

I was going to just leave it at, "I disagree," but I'll explain why I think this is unlikely. First of all, Trunks' plan was to talk to Goku in private and not meet everyone else. If Goku was supposed to have the heart attack during/right after the fight, what was he going to do? Sneakily give him the medicine without anyone looking, then wait for him to get better so he can get him aside and warn him about the Androids?

First, thank you for that. You just stated an excellent reason why Trunks’ would not be able to get Goku alone after he fought Freeza. Let me supply another. If Goku fought Freeza, their ki are going to attract the other fighters. Also after the battle, everyone is going to play catch up with Goku. So when would Trunks’ have the chance to get Goku alone without the others knowing? He’s not going to be able to follow Goku around until he gets the chance, because he would run the risk of the others sensing his ki (or otherwise being noticed). In other words, Trunks’ would not be able to get to Goku alone after he fought Freeza, because the others would be there too. That leaves the only alternative available, Trunks’ would have to meet Goku before he even fought Freeza.

Now let’s take what we know from the manga. Trunks’ knows the exact time and place Goku will land in the pod. Doesn’t it make better sense, that Trunks’ would wait in the spot where Goku will land, knowing they would be alone and then tell him everything prior to the fight? You kind of point this out in a way with your response to Zephyr:

Maybe Goku teleported his pod with him to the skies above Earth, right at that exact spot?

There would have to be a ki Goku knew right there for him to teleport to it.

Yeah that's true, forgot about that.

If Trunks waited at Goku’s landing spot, he and Goku would be alone long enough for him to tell him everything, give him the medicine, etc.

'Didn't look like Trunks was expecting Gokû to collapse right then and there though.

And if he was planning to meet Goku when his pod landed, he would not expect Goku to collapse.

Again, in the manga Trunks says, “I was supposed to meet you and only you. But then I ran into the others.” We also know from the manga, that Trunks’ had to take the others to where Goku would land. So let me pose this. Doesn’t it make sense that Trunks, while waiting for Goku to land where they would be alone, assumed Goku wouldn’t arrive in time and flew to where Freeza was, thus running into the others?

Secondly, upon his return three years later, Trunks expresses surprise that the time of Goku's virus appearing had changed; if he was meant to get it after fighting Freeza, he should have already known that it had changed. You could argue that he was just surprised that it took so long to appear, I suppose, but that's not what he said. Much like how he didn't say, "You were meant to be having a heart attack right now!" It all just seems like too much of a stretch to me.

Just because I feel that the fight with Freeza may have triggered the heart virus, doesn’t mean that Trunks’ would know this as well. As in the manga, all Trunks would know is that Goku would have died sometime after his fight with Freeza in 764. Since Goku doesn’t take the medicine, and since Trunks being in the past wouldn’t just make Goku’s heart virus wait three years to take effect, the only thing left that happened differently, was Trunks’ stepped in to fight Freeza. I believe the unknowingly to Trunks, preventing that fight is what prevented Goku from triggering his heart virus then. And his surprise and response comes from him assuming Goku had already taken the medicine back in 764 regardless (since that was the year he died originally).

Also, Gokû had a big fight to look forward to, and he trained for years with Piccolo and Gohan (who probably spent all that time studying, in the original timeline)

If you look at my earlier post, I addressed the added training. The point I’m trying to get at is that even though he trained, he doesn’t actually suffer from the virus until the big fight. Let me use a fighting analogy here to explain my point:

You have a boxer that is about to have a big fight. The doctor steps in and says the boxer has a bad heart and if they have this fight it will kill them. The boxer gives up fighting but continues to train to keep in shape. Three years later, the boxer feeling good comes out of retirement to have a fight. During the fight he has the heart attack he would have had (if the doctor had not stepped in to stop it then) and dies.

To my point. It would have been the fight itself in either time line that would have played a factor in Goku triggering the heart virus. With training you can control and pace yourself. In a fight, depending on the circumstances, you will have less control and may have to push yourself harder than your training regimen. Also your mentality and stress are going to differ between training and a real fight.

Besides all that, Goku was already showing symptoms of the disease before the fighting even started. Tenshinhan comments that Goku looks out of breath just from flying.

This goes back to my earlier theory of something (i.e. stress), triggering the heart virus. Look at what happened prior to Tenshinhan making that observation. Goku asks Gero to go somewhere without people around. Gero kills all the humans in the area. Goku in a rage vows to make Gero pay and then they fly to a spot to fight. Tenshinhan notices Goku is out of breath. I feel that moment of intense rage created added stress (and what happens to hearts during added stress?) may have set the virus off.
In trying to find a common denominator, I came up with this: When Freeza landed, he muses that he was going to kill all the people on Earth before Goku arrived, to see the look on his face. In the original time line, he most likely did that. And in a rage Goku would have reacted the same way as he does with Gero in the manga, triggering the heart virus. They fly off with everyone else going to observe. When they land Tenshinhan makes the same observation that he does in the manga.

[Bussani]

I guess that's starting to sound more plausible... Although now you're using "Trunks didn't know when Goku was supposed to die" to explain "Trunks didn't know Goku could teleport." ...Maybe we should just agree that Trunks doesn't know anything--which is actually supported by the manga a lot!

[Herms]

...Maybe we should just agree that Trunks doesn't know anything--which is actually supported by the manga a lot!

Or that he just has a frighteningly awful memory. After all, he says he forgot that his time machine created alternate time lines! Maybe it's just me, but that'd be the sort of detail I'd try and remember.

[Olivier Hague]

'Didn't look like Trunks was expecting Gokû to collapse right then and there though.

And if he was planning to meet Goku when his pod landed, he would not expect Goku to collapse.

What I meant was that if Gokû was supposed to collapse/die on that very day, I'd personally expect Trunks to mention that particular tidbit in passing at some point or another. But I sense no such urgency, really.

all Trunks would know is that Goku would have died sometime after his fight with Freeza in 764.

You know, I can see how Bulma could forget to mention Gokû's teleportation skills decades later, but I think him collapsing/dying on the very day he got back from space would leave some kind of impression...

Also, Gokû had a big fight to look forward to, and he trained for years with Piccolo and Gohan (who probably spent all that time studying, in the original timeline)

If you look at my earlier post, I addressed the added training.

You mentioned it... and then ignored it by saying the only difference would be whether or not Gokû fought Freeza and Cold. So no, it wouldn't be the only difference. Trunks was a pretty big butterfly, and we have a 3 year span, there...

The point I’m trying to get at is that even though he trained, he doesn’t actually suffer from the virus until the big fight.

I believe we all know that.
Basically:
I could think of a number of possible factors for Gokû's virus to be "late" as a consequence of Trunks showing up. Trunks being the one who defeated Freeza and Cold is but one of them, and I see no reason to believe Gokû dropped dead right after that fight in the original timeline (on the contrary, like I said above).

[p123]

Agreed on several points. I think the implication is that in Trunks timeline Goku used IT to get there on time. That opens up a can of worms, but AT not thinking something like that through wouldn't be all that unlikely...

The second before Trunks arrives should be directly the same as his timeline. That's what traveling into the past is about. The timelines do not seperate until Trunks makes his appearence. So if Goku was late in the future timeline, he should have been late in the present one as well. After that, the butterfly effect should take place.


But there is one thing everyone is missing. Cell had already time traveled to the planet. Cell was there a year before Trunks initial arrival was he not? In that case, that could explain the variances between the two timelines prior to Trunks initial arrival...