Who beat Frieza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:54 pm

p123 wrote:But there is one thing everyone is missing. Cell had already time traveled to the planet. Cell was there a year before Trunks initial arrival was he not? In that case, that could explain the variances between the two timelines prior to Trunks initial arrival...
Trunks does wonder if that has something to do with the differences that occur, but I'm not sure how Cell being underground for a few years would change much.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

p123
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1358
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:34 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by p123 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:59 pm

The butterfly effect entails a butterfly flapping it's wings and what a monsoon occuring on the other side of the planet right? Cell crapping himself out of the machine and going underground could be just as drastic as said butterfly flapping wings...


It's an odd scenario, I would take the simplest route though and go by what I feel is suggested which would be...

Goku used IT to get there in time in Trunks timeline.

Cell being underground was a major cause for the resulting changes that Trunks talks about...

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:23 pm

p123 wrote:The butterfly effect entails a butterfly flapping it's wings and what a monsoon occuring on the other side of the planet right? Cell crapping himself out of the machine and going underground could be just as drastic as said butterfly flapping wings...
The idea of the butterfly effect is that a small change can lead to more small changes, which over hundreds of years could amount to something important. Using a butterfly is taking it to an extreme to show that events in the present are dependent on extremely small events far in the past. I don't see how Cell sleeping underground could cause any major changes over only a few years.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
Fox666
I Live Here
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Fox666 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:43 pm

Wouldn't Cell also have killed a few people here and there?

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:46 pm

Fox666 wrote:Wouldn't Cell also have killed a few people here and there?
Not before his appearance in Ginger Town. He was an egg when the time machine arrived, hatched, went underground, and stayed there for four years to grow back to a state where it could eat people.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Attitudefan » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Now it makes sense! Cell made the alternate time-line changing the arrival of Goku. Trunks then changes it even more by basically showing up.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

Olivier Hague
I Live Here
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 pm

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:41 am

Attitudefan wrote:Now it makes sense!
I think an anxious Trunks showing up before Gokû could teleport already made sense...
Cell made the alternate time-line changing the arrival of Goku.
Er... Cell got there one year earlier, sure, but he spent all that time underground and we're still talking about an object in outer space.
'Not seeing it, sorry.

Besides, I think adding Cell to the equation would bring up more issues than it would solve... What happened in the Cell-less original timeline? And the Cell-less timeline where Trunks showed up?

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:02 am

the_abberration wrote:
Bussani wrote:I was going to just leave it at, "I disagree," but I'll explain why I think this is unlikely. First of all, Trunks' plan was to talk to Goku in private and not meet everyone else. If Goku was supposed to have the heart attack during/right after the fight, what was he going to do? Sneakily give him the medicine without anyone looking, then wait for him to get better so he can get him aside and warn him about the Androids?
First, thank you for that. You just stated an excellent reason why Trunks’ would not be able to get Goku alone after he fought Freeza. Let me supply another. If Goku fought Freeza, their ki are going to attract the other fighters. Also after the battle, everyone is going to play catch up with Goku. So when would Trunks’ have the chance to get Goku alone without the others knowing? He’s not going to be able to follow Goku around until he gets the chance, because he would run the risk of the others sensing his ki (or otherwise being noticed). In other words, Trunks’ would not be able to get to Goku alone after he fought Freeza, because the others would be there too. That leaves the only alternative available, Trunks’ would have to meet Goku before he even fought Freeza.

Now let’s take what we know from the manga. Trunks’ knows the exact time and place Goku will land in the pod. Doesn’t it make better sense, that Trunks’ would wait in the spot where Goku will land, knowing they would be alone and then tell him everything prior to the fight?
You know, when you think about it, Trunks' plan to talk to Goku without the others knowing, before the fight with Freeza, was flawed anyway. Since Freeza was waiting for Goku to come to Earth so he could kill him, when could Trunks get the time to talk to Goku before Freeza went after Goku and fought him? Also, I don't think Goku would stop and listen to a stranger's story when his priority would be dealing with Freeza before he started killing people.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Olivier Hague
I Live Here
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 pm

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:11 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:You know, when you think about it, Trunks' plan to talk to Goku without the others knowing, before the fight with Freeza, was flawed anyway. Since Freeza was waiting for Goku to come to Earth so he could kill him, when could Trunks get the time to talk to Goku before Freeza went after Goku and fought him?
Trunks didn't expect Gokû to be late. Maybe he thought Gokû showed up shortly before Freeza did, for all we know.

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:42 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:You know, when you think about it, Trunks' plan to talk to Goku without the others knowing, before the fight with Freeza, was flawed anyway. Since Freeza was waiting for Goku to come to Earth so he could kill him, when could Trunks get the time to talk to Goku before Freeza went after Goku and fought him?
Trunks didn't expect Gokû to be late. Maybe he thought Gokû showed up shortly before Freeza did, for all we know.
Yeah, that's right, but it sounded like he thought Goku arrived in his spacepod in time to defeat Freeza. He still wouldn't have time, because the first thing he'd do when he got out of the pod would be go to fight Freeza, not listen to a stranger's story. Nor would Freeza give him the time, since him and his henchmen would sense Goku on their scouters.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

Olivier Hague
I Live Here
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 pm

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Olivier Hague » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:05 am

Piccolo Daimao wrote:He still wouldn't have time, because the first thing he'd do when he got out of the pod would be go to fight Freeza, not listen to a stranger's story.
If Trunks can tell where Gokû will land (and it looks like he can), he can catch up with him right away, and I think turning into a Super Saiyan would get his attention...
Nor would Freeza give him the time
Well, if Trunks thinks Gokû landed before Freeza...
I could imagine Bulma telling him that Freeza and Cold were defeated by Gokû before they could do anything, and Trunks assuming that means he was already back when Cold's ship landed (when in fact, it would be because Gokû teleported, a technicality Bulma didn't know about/had forgotten).

p123
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1358
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:34 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by p123 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:51 am

Bussani wrote:The idea of the butterfly effect is that a small change can lead to more small changes, which over hundreds of years could amount to something important. Using a butterfly is taking it to an extreme to show that events in the present are dependent on extremely small events far in the past. I don't see how Cell sleeping underground could cause any major changes over only a few years

I thought the butterfly effect was simply a butterfly flapping it's wings causes ripples in a pond, which causes someting else, which causes a monsoon. Is it more about small changes like you said, or is it just an example of crazy shit happening due to time travel... Who is the creator of the butterfly effect and pull up some quotes if you don't mind...

User avatar
cpd12589
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 184
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by cpd12589 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:58 am

Yeah Bussani's right that's what the Butterfly effect is.

For example say you went back in time and changed just one little thing like picked up a quarter on the ground in a city then went back to your time. The effects from you picking up that quarter could be huge. Like if somebody later that day was supposed to look at that spot on the ground and pick up that quarter. But instead since you picked it up and took it when they looked at that spot nothing was there and they just continued walking. That person continuing to walk could change something else that another person would've done later on. The fact that the guy who would've originally picked up the quarter didn't could go on to create a chain reaction of events that never would've happened had the quarter had been there.

That's the butterfly effect in a nutshell.

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:16 am

p123 wrote:
Bussani wrote:The idea of the butterfly effect is that a small change can lead to more small changes, which over hundreds of years could amount to something important. Using a butterfly is taking it to an extreme to show that events in the present are dependent on extremely small events far in the past. I don't see how Cell sleeping underground could cause any major changes over only a few years
I thought the butterfly effect was simply a butterfly flapping it's wings causes ripples in a pond, which causes someting else, which causes a monsoon.
You're not wrong; it's just that it takes a lot of time for such small changes to lead to such large changes. It's a cascade effect.
Is it more about small changes like you said, or is it just an example of crazy shit happening due to time travel...
Like I said, using a butterfly is an extreme example, because it's something so small that you'd think it wouldn't matter. It's basically the same as if you used something much larger, though, like killing one of your ancestors. Kill your father, you and your siblings aren't born; kill your grandfather, you, your father, your siblings, and a bunch of your aunts, uncles and cousins aren't born. The changes on the present become more extreme the farther back you go. So killing a butterfly a year ago probably won't have a major effect on the present, but killing one that lived on Earth millions of years ago might. Imagine how much the present might change if you killed one man who lived thousands of years ago.
Who is the creator of the butterfly effect and pull up some quotes if you don't mind...
The term was coined by a meteorologist named Edward Lorenz, who, when working on predicting weather patterns, realized that a tiny difference in one of the initial factors (using .506 instead of .506127) could result in completely different results later on. He originally used a seagull flapping its wings as the metaphor, but butterflies are apparently more poetic.
Wikipedia wrote:The phrase refers to the idea that a butterfly's wings might create tiny changes in the atmosphere that may ultimately alter the path of a tornado or delay, accelerate or even prevent the occurrence of a tornado in a certain location. The flapping wing represents a small change in the initial condition of the system, which causes a chain of events leading to large-scale alterations of events (compare: domino effect). Had the butterfly not flapped its wings, the trajectory of the system might have been vastly different. While the butterfly does not "cause" the tornado in the sense of providing the energy for the tornado, it does "cause" it in the sense that the flap of its wings is an essential part of the initial conditions resulting in a tornado, and without that flap that particular tornado would not have existed.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:09 am

Bussani wrote:Like I said, using a butterfly is an extreme example, because it's something so small that you'd think it wouldn't matter. It's basically the same as if you used something much larger, though, like killing one of your ancestors. Kill your father, you and your siblings aren't born; kill your grandfather, you, your father, your siblings, and a bunch of your aunts, uncles and cousins aren't born.
Isn't that time travel logic wrong though? Because if you go back in time and kill your father or something, then you wouldn't even exist in the first place. You shouldn't even exist, grow up and be able to go back in time if your father's death before your birth has happened already.
Olivier Hague wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:He still wouldn't have time, because the first thing he'd do when he got out of the pod would be go to fight Freeza, not listen to a stranger's story.
If Trunks can tell where Gokû will land (and it looks like he can), he can catch up with him right away, and I think turning into a Super Saiyan would get his attention...
Nor would Freeza give him the time
Well, if Trunks thinks Gokû landed before Freeza...
I could imagine Bulma telling him that Freeza and Cold were defeated by Gokû before they could do anything, and Trunks assuming that means he was already back when Cold's ship landed (when in fact, it would be because Gokû teleported, a technicality Bulma didn't know about/had forgotten).
What I'm saying is, if Trunks' plan was to meet up with Goku right after his spacepod landed and tell his story, even if he got his attention by transforming, Freeza still wouldn't give him time and try to kill Goku.

But I understand what you mean by Trunks assuming things, or a matter of misinformation.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
the_abberration
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:22 pm
Location: Stuck On Earth

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by the_abberration » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:58 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:What I'm saying is, if Trunks' plan was to meet up with Goku right after his spacepod landed and tell his story, even if he got his attention by transforming, Freeza still wouldn't give him time and try to kill Goku.
You have to take into account, Freeza's point of view. He also wants Goku's to suffer as well. He most likely would rely on the fact that once Goku landed on Earth and took in the destruction and death, Goku would come to him. So if Trunks' were able to stop Goku long enough to talk, Freeza wouldn't necessarily be going to fight Goku. Freeza is an arrogant tyrant. He has the "I don't come to dogs, dogs come to me" mentality working.
1 Corinthians 13: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Except the anime. Never the anime.

"Look. I'm not allowed to hold you, but I'm sworn to protect you"-Sergeant Hatred

The Lineup: Danger Mouse

Olivier Hague
I Live Here
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:09 pm

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Olivier Hague » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:14 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Isn't that time travel logic wrong though? Because if you go back in time and kill your father or something, then you wouldn't even exist in the first place. You shouldn't even exist, grow up and be able to go back in time if your father's death before your birth has happened already.
That's generally called the "grandfather paradox" and it's quite bothersome indeed. But when you work with multiple timelines (as is the case in Dragon Ball), it's not an issue anymore, and you can observe the butterfly effect (that is to say, how the new timeline ends up being quite different just because of the sudden appearance of a time traveler).
What I'm saying is, if Trunks' plan was to meet up with Goku right after his spacepod landed and tell his story, even if he got his attention by transforming, Freeza still wouldn't give him time and try to kill Goku.
But that's a scenario that assumes Trunks would have to talk to Gokû while Freeza is already on Earth. Maybe that's not what Trunks had in mind, like I said above.
(in fact, I kinda hope it isn't, as I agree that would be quite the odd plan)

User avatar
Piccolo Daimao
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:What I'm saying is, if Trunks' plan was to meet up with Goku right after his spacepod landed and tell his story, even if he got his attention by transforming, Freeza still wouldn't give him time and try to kill Goku.
But that's a scenario that assumes Trunks would have to talk to Gokû while Freeza is already on Earth. Maybe that's not what Trunks had in mind, like I said above.
(in fact, I kinda hope it isn't, as I agree that would be quite the odd plan)
Yeah, that's why I said I understand your point of view now, that Trunks could've assumed that Goku arrived before Freeza.

And the_abberration, I understand your point too.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

User avatar
Bussani
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8041
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by Bussani » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:41 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Isn't that time travel logic wrong though? Because if you go back in time and kill your father or something, then you wouldn't even exist in the first place. You shouldn't even exist, grow up and be able to go back in time if your father's death before your birth has happened already.
It was just an example of how the effect of a change in the status quo becomes more noticeable the more time passes. Plus what Olivier said.
If TPP passes in your country it will be illegal for you to watch an imported DVD. Click here to learn more!

p123
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1358
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:34 am

Re: Who beat Freeza on Earth in Future Trunks' timeline?

Post by p123 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:32 am

That's why for this situation I think it's best to just take the manga implications as is... It's implied that Goku used IT to beat Freeza in Trunks timeline, why not just take it. Easiest way. The hypotheticals are fun, but the likelihood of this being true is very high, I mean the author hints at this being the answer does he not. And Trunks does imply perhaps that Cell arriving here is what has changed the timeline, although we may disagree with the logics behind it, it is what the author implys is it not, since he has a character suggests this approach and not one of our theories I would find what Trunks is suggesting to be the most likely in the manga...



Anyway, back to the fun stuff. I liked the stuff they did on the time travel to the past on the Morgan Freeman science show. What's that called again...

I like the POV that traveling to the past would be an impossibility. Something that has happened has happened, it's time has come and gone already. Even though time isn't a real thing as well. The issue with time is perhaps the most interesting. Something of the sort as the two varying perspectives of someone who is going through a black hole while the other is observing from a distance... The one going through the black hole would feel the immediate feel of gravity and disappear/die rather quickly... Meanwhile, the observer would watch the person falling into the black hole for an eternity, the person would never fall in or it would take a ridicolously long time due to the effects gravity has on light and yea the rest of the stuff was pretty much beyond me. Or at least beyond my recollection...

Traveling to the future on the other hand, is totally possible. Something of the sort that we actually do that on a day to day basis. The earth seems to squish up at times throughout the day and this change in gravity alters how time is perceived. Which could help explain why sometimes 2 or 4 minutes seems to go so fast and why at other times goes so slow...But anyway, if you travel around the Earth just outside the atmosphere and hit certain speeds in the spaceship the time on your body would be less than the time for someone on Earth.. Which is amazing stuff...


Would anyone be interesting in doing that kind of stuff though? I mean lets say we made a machine fast enough for us to travel for one year and it actually be 100 years earth time. Everyone that you know of would be dead, and everything that you knew of would be gone...Kind of shitty life huh... But it would be interesting as hell to see the kind of gains we made in that amount of time, only you would like to go back to your time and tell everyone, which may be an impossibility...


On the time travel past, another option was creating a huge pole throughout the universe that had something that can wing you inside the loop of time. Can't really go into detail here it was a while back, but they said it was technically possible judged by their approach, but the pole would have to be as big as the universe, which would be an impossibility..

Anyone know that show or particularly this episode I am talking about? Was some amazing stuff...

Post Reply