What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

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What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Sadako » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:21 am

Ok, so the question is a bit more complex than the Subject says. Basically I've always wondered what fully happened when Trunks returned the 2nd time in the first alternate timeline.

To make it easier, here's my basic rundown of the timelines with the gap I'm looking to fill.

CELL TIMELINE (Timeline #1): Goku kills Frieza/King Cold -> Goku dies of Heart Condition -> Z Fighters killed by Androids -> Future Gohan killed by Androids -> Future Trunks returns to the past -> Future Trunks kills Frieza/King Cold and gives Goku heart medicine -> Future Trunks returns to the future -> 2 years later Future Trunks goes back to check on Goku -> XXXXXXXXXX -> Future Trunks returns to the future and kills the Androids -> 2 years later Cell kills Future Trunks and goes to the past (Timeline #3)

FUTURE TRUNKS TIMELINE (Timeline #2) Future Trunks kills Frieza/King Cold and gives Goku heart medicine -> 3 years later Future Trunks returns to this timeline -> Future Trunks finds the Z Fighters fighting #19/#20 -> Goku retires due to heart condition and Vegeta kills #19 -> #20 runs back to the lab and activates #17/#18 who in turn kill #20 -> #16/#17/#18 defeat Vegeta and the Z Fighters and then go after Goku -> XXXXXXXXXX -> Future Trunks returns to the Future (Kills the androids/Gets killed by Cell)

CURRENT TIMELINE (Timeline #3) Future Trunks kills Frieza/King Cold and gives Goku heart medicine -> 3 years later Future Trunks returns to this timeline -> Future Trunks finds the Z Fighters fighting #19/#20 -> Goku retires due to heart condition and Vegeta kills #19 -> #20 runs back to the lab and activates #17/#18 who in turn kill #20 -> #16/#17/#18 defeat Vegeta and the Z Fighters and then go after Goku -> Wacky Insanity involving Cell from Timeline #1 occurs -> Future Trunks returns to the Future (Kills the Androids/Kills Cell)

Obviously the XXXXXXXXXX is the gap I'm looking to fill. I don't know if it's covered in any of the guidebooks.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:33 am

It isn't really expanded upon much in the guides, since that timeline (the one the Trunks from Cell's timeline created when he first goes back in time) is the only one we don't see at all in the manga. The Daizenshuu timeline guide theorizes that Trunks and the others found the blueprints for the shutdown remote, which actually makes some sense, because it's what the Future Trunks we get to know talks about finding before Cell comes along and mucks everything up. Presumably they'd then use the remote to shut the Androids down and possibly destroy them, and then Trunks could return to his future and use it to shut down his Androids there. Then Cell appears and kills the poor guy for his trouble.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Sadako » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:14 am

Thanks so much! That does indeed make sense.

A couple interesting tidbits from the Daizenshuu and one really big question...

I find it interesting that the Timeline #1 Trunks isn't strong enough to beat #17/#18 since he uses the shutdown remote. I guess that makes sense since he wouldn't have trained with Vegeta at Kami's. Also, interesting the reason they give for Majin Buu not being revived in Timeline #1 and #2. I guess that means the story from "Shin Budokai: Another Road" game has been completely denied from any type of possible canonicity.

My big question is how on God's Green Earth does the "History 4" the Daizenshuu speaks of come to be??? #17/#18 have been defeated in both Timeline #1 and #2... and even if you talk about Cell eventually being born in Timeline #2, one would assume the Z Fighters used the shutdown remote on #17/#18 so all you're left with is an imperfect Cell who could easily be taken down by the Z-Fighters.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:49 am

Well, I feel I should mention first that Dragon Ball's multiple timelines are a really heavily debated topic around here, but I can at least explain what I think the Daizenshuu was going for in their description. What the Daizenshuu calls History 4 is the first alternate timeline created, which happens when the Trunks from Cell's timeline first went back in time. In other words, History 4 would be the one where Trunks and the others found the blueprints for the shutdown remote. If you look at the page carefully, you can see it showing a purple line to indicate that Trunks returned to History 3 (his and Cell's home timeline) from here, where Cell soon killed him, stole his time machine, and went further back to where he hid underground and caused the timeline we see in the manga (History 1). The main confusing thing there is that you then get a different Future Trunks visiting this timeline, and there are all sorts of theories about where his future (History 2) came from.

You might be interested in this big old thread we had on the subject ages ago--particularly desirecampbell's way of describing it, if you can wrap your head around it.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Fox666 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:05 am

Time-line 1: Main series time-line.

Time-line 2: Trunks time-line, where #17 and #18 destroyed the future.

Time-line 3: Cell's time-line. Trunks managed to find a way to destroy #17 and #18. Since he lacks the power to fight Cell, we assume he used the control devices to stop the androids.

Time-line 4: The time-line which Trunks from time-line 3 has travelled to. This time-line was unseen.

Time-line 5: This one is hard to pick-up. Cell in the main series said to Piccolo that he not used the cells of Trunks who killed Freeza on him because he already had too many saiyans. Meaning that there was another Trunks from the future that travelled back to time-line 3?? Of course this time-line may not exists at all and what Cell said is just a plot-hole.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:08 pm

What about the timeline where there's a Cell Games but no Trunks?
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:45 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:What about the timeline where there's a Cell Games but no Trunks?
That time line definitely makes no sense. Where does this Cell come from? (You'll notice that Dragon Ball Forever's time line guide scrapped this idea.)
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:03 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:What about the timeline where there's a Cell Games but no Trunks?
That time line definitely makes no sense. Where does this Cell come from? (You'll notice that Dragon Ball Forever's time line guide scrapped this idea.)
Ah, I thought I was the only one that didn't understand it. :)
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:08 pm

I see Cell's timeline as Trunks' timeline, except more into the future. That's after Trunks killed the Artificial Humans and returned back home when Cell killed him. So the Z Fighters are in the same place as they are in Trunks' timeline... Other World.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:09 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:I see Cell's timeline as Trunks' timeline, except more into the future. That's after Trunks killed the Artificial Humans and returned back home when Cell killed him. So the Z Fighters are in the same place as they are in Trunks' timeline... Other World.
I think you misunderstood the question.
Piccolo Daimao wrote:What about the timeline where there's a Cell Games but no Trunks?
Ah, I completely forgot to mention this. However you look at it, this does seem to be a mistake. Look closely enough and you can see the line indicating that a Trunks left that timeline and returned to Cell's one, which means that's the Trunks with the shutdown remote, which means that timeline he came from was the one where he found it. I assume they meant to say that Trunks was absent at the time the Cell Games would have taken place (had they existed in that timeline), but he never returned because Cell killed him in his time. On the other hand, it's likely that whoever was drawing this page simply didn't realize that there shouldn't be a Cell at all in that timeline.

You can leave that timeline out like the Dragon Ball Forever guide did, since we don't even see it in the manga, and assume that Trunks defeated the Androids in some other vague way. But then, where had he been in his time machine, and where was he going in it next? It seems obvious that one way or another, that Trunks had had some unseen adventure.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:38 pm

I wonder how Trunks obtained those blueprints for the remote control device. Guess they were in Gero's lab instead of his alternate lab where Cell was being developed in that timeline.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:01 am

Well, the Daizenshuu suggests that they find blueprints for the shutdown controllers themselves. What they found in the alternate lab was complete blueprints for the Androids, and Bulma came up with her own remote from those. I guess the main lab could have had the blueprints for Gero's remote lying around? Of course, it would have to have survived the explosion.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:14 am

Nice catch. I had assumed they were the same blueprints.

I could see Gero's lab not being destroyed in that timeline. One funny thing I thought of was how Supersonic Warriors portrayed this part. Cell had approached Trunks, and Trunks tried to use the remote control on him and Cell just started laughing. I could totally see that taking place.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Sadako » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:03 am

Bussani wrote: Ah, I completely forgot to mention this. However you look at it, this does seem to be a mistake. Look closely enough and you can see the line indicating that a Trunks left that timeline and returned to Cell's one, which means that's the Trunks with the shutdown remote, which means that timeline he came from was the one where he found it. I assume they meant to say that Trunks was absent at the time the Cell Games would have taken place (had they existed in that timeline), but he never returned because Cell killed him in his time. On the other hand, it's likely that whoever was drawing this page simply didn't realize that there shouldn't be a Cell at all in that timeline.

You can leave that timeline out like the Dragon Ball Forever guide did, since we don't even see it in the manga, and assume that Trunks defeated the Androids in some other vague way. But then, where had he been in his time machine, and where was he going in it next? It seems obvious that one way or another, that Trunks had had some unseen adventure.
Yea, I think I understand the timeline now on a different level. The Trunks that was killed by Cell was traveling back for a 3rd time; so he'd already have helped the Z Fighters destroy Cell in that timeline. This line of reasoning only makes sense if the Trunks killed by Cell was going back the 2nd time, which is when he got the shutdown remote and helped the Z Fighters destroy the Androids. I mean if he didn't go back the 2nd time, he wouldn't have been able to destroy the Androids in his timeline, thus negating Cell's need to go back in time.

Logically, I have a feeling that Timeline comes from the idea that Trunks always travels to a different dimension/timeline; meaning he'd have come to that Timeline the first time to give Goku the medicine, but when he traveled back the 2nd time, he went to an entirely different timeline and not that one, but for some reason a Cell still came back here.

However if you go by this theory, then there's actually about 9 different timelines since Trunks would never really travel to the same one twice... which means the Trunks who kills Frieza/King Cold in the Series Timeline is actually a different Trunks than the one who comes back 3 years later and stays through the Cell Games. I guess this theory is plausible, but it creates so many loopholes and timelines for anyone to logically comprehend without a phD in Quantum Physics.

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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:36 am

Sadako wrote:Yea, I think I understand the timeline now on a different level. The Trunks that was killed by Cell was traveling back for a 3rd time; so he'd already have helped the Z Fighters destroy Cell in that timeline. This line of reasoning only makes sense if the Trunks killed by Cell was going back the 2nd time, which is when he got the shutdown remote and helped the Z Fighters destroy the Androids. I mean if he didn't go back the 2nd time, he wouldn't have been able to destroy the Androids in his timeline, thus negating Cell's need to go back in time.
That sounds about right. I imagine that the unseen timeline played out exactly like the one we see in the manga up until they found the second time machine and first started hearing about Cell. With their focus still on the Androids, they somehow found the blueprints to make a remote to shut them down, and Trunks returned to his future similarly to how he does at the end of the Cell saga. As we see in the manga, the Cell from our Future Trunks' time appears just like the one in that other Trunks' timeline does, but since our Future Trunks is much stronger, he just beat him.
Logically, I have a feeling that Timeline comes from the idea that Trunks always travels to a different dimension/timeline; meaning he'd have come to that Timeline the first time to give Goku the medicine, but when he traveled back the 2nd time, he went to an entirely different timeline and not that one, but for some reason a Cell still came back here.

However if you go by this theory, then there's actually about 9 different timelines since Trunks would never really travel to the same one twice... which means the Trunks who kills Freeza/King Cold in the Series Timeline is actually a different Trunks than the one who comes back 3 years later and stays through the Cell Games. I guess this theory is plausible, but it creates so many loopholes and timelines for anyone to logically comprehend without a phD in Quantum Physics.
That's more or less how desirecampbell's timeline explanation works, with a new timeline being started every time you time travel. We only see three of them in the story, with that one extra one implied, but it's possible that there are these other ones being left behind. However, the idea of a timeline that splits like this is a way to make sure paradoxes don't happen, so technically you don't need to assume a timeline is created every time; it's just a bit confusing to explain which ones will and which ones won't. I guess the simplest way of saying it is, "You create a new history if you travel into your own past." This would mean that traveling 10 years into the past would start a new timeline, but if you could return to yours from there, you wouldn't start a new one unless you arrived before you left.

Uh, that didn't come out as simple as I'd hoped...

...But yeah, he'd probably be happy to hear the conclusion you came to, because his timeline layout ended up with a timeline that had a Cell game but no Trunks, too! :lol:
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:18 pm

If Trunks creates a new time line every time he goes back in time, how would everybody know who he was? For instance, the second time Trunks came back in time (after Vegeta had killed #19 and whatnot), if he's in a different time line than the one he went to last time, wouldn't this time line be one where Goku had killed Freeza and King Cold, instead of a future Trunks?
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:51 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:If Trunks creates a new time line every time he goes back in time, how would everybody know who he was? For instance, the second time Trunks came back in time (after Vegeta had killed #19 and whatnot), if he's in a different time line than the one he went to last time, wouldn't this time line be one where Goku had killed Freeza and King Cold, instead of a future Trunks?
The idea is that he's still going back to the timeline he previous created, but that he splits it again by doing so. So you end up with a timeline where Trunks warns Goku about the Androids, but then never returns, and the timeline we see, where he does return. I do think this is unnecessary, though. And it's a bit depressing, because you end up with multiple versions of the future where Trunks never returns.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:22 pm

The way I see it, a split only occurs if the time traveler goes back in time further than before. When Trunks goes back originally, he's going back to 20 years before his own time, which creates a new time line to avoid a paradox or whatever. However, when he goes back a second time, he's in the same (altered) time line as before, only 3 years into the future. Therefore, a new time line isn't created, because he isn't changing the past of that time line.

When Cell goes back in time, he goes back to a year before Trunks's first arrival, so he created an alteration of the already altered time line. It's kind of hard to articulate, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Bussani » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:49 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:The way I see it, a split only occurs if the time traveler goes back in time further than before. When Trunks goes back originally, he's going back to 20 years before his own time, which creates a new time line to avoid a paradox or whatever. However, when he goes back a second time, he's in the same (altered) time line as before, only 3 years into the future. Therefore, a new time line isn't created, because he isn't changing the past of that time line.

When Cell goes back in time, he goes back to a year before Trunks's first arrival, so he created an alteration of the already altered time line. It's kind of hard to articulate, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
I get what you're saying, because that's exactly how I see it.
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Re: What happened to the Z Fighters in Cell's Timeline?

Post by Sadako » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:43 am

Bussani wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:When Cell goes back in time, he goes back to a year before Trunks's first arrival, so he created an alteration of the already altered time line. It's kind of hard to articulate, but hopefully you get what I'm saying.
I get what you're saying, because that's exactly how I see it.
Ok, so wait a minute... here's where it gets complex... but I think I finally see the Daizenshuu's logic:

So basically first time around, Trunks created the first alternate by going back to 764 and since he went back the second time to 767, he remained in that same alternate.

But Cell went back to 766... so he created a second alternate timeline wherein Trunks had already killed Frieza/King Cold and since Trunks went back to 767, which is after Cell's destination, this breaks it off in two more branches, only one of which Trunks returns to.

This is the only way I see ONLY 4 Timelines. Not that I agree with it, I'm just trying to make sense of the Daizenshuu's logic.

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