Mutaito - Title or Name?

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Piccolo Daimao
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Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:19 pm

Is "Mutaito" the character's title rather than his name, like "Muten Roshi"? Because it essentially translates to "a great authority of the martial arts" and "Muten Roshi" roughly translates out to "an old man who teaches".
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Daimo-Rukiri » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:51 pm

I believe it's just a title as no name is given to him, it is possible that it's his actual name.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Herms » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:28 pm

There's nothing that gives his real name, if he has one. "Mutaito" does sound more like a title than a name, but maybe he just had very eccentric and far-seeing parents.
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Muten Roshi roughly translates out to "an old man who teaches".
It's more like "martial-arts-heaven old teacher" (...yeah...). First, roushi is an actual word meaning "old teacher". Meanwhile, muten is as far as I can tell just two impressive kanji thrown together: mu, referring to all things military and martial arts related, and ten, referring to the heavens. In DB Forever, Toriyama says that he didn't intend the name to have any great meaning, and that it was just supposed to sound suitably impressive.

Is it his real name or just a title? I don't think we really know. It's kinda hard to believe his parents named him that, but maybe it's a name he took on later in life rather than a title. Of course, what real difference is there between taking on a title and just renaming yourself "super-awesome martial arts guy" midway through your life? Either way, "Muten Roshi" is what he has on his driver's license, so maybe that points to it being his legal name at least.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Fox666 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:00 pm

Well, having a meaning doesn't mean it's a special title. It's rather common in mangas for names having some meaning, I.e. Naruto means wirlpool

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Daimo-Rukiri » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:11 pm

It's the same thing for master roshi, lol kinda funny when watching the dub when they say master roshi(old teacher) but Muten Roshi is his name at least that's what's on his Drivers License.

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Herms » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:28 pm

Fox666 wrote:Well, having a meaning doesn't mean it's a special title. It's rather common in mangas for names having some meaning, I.e. Naruto means wirlpool
Eh, that's not really the same thing. Roushi and taito are both actual titles, so the fact that they're part of these characters' names suggests that those names are titles too. I mean, if I introduce a character called "Super Doctor" into a story, you wouldn't typically assume that was his real name, would you?
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Perfect » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:13 am

It doesn't seem that far-fetched to have that type of name, given other characters names...
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by kei17 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:26 am

Herms wrote:It's more like "martial-arts-heaven old teacher" (...yeah...). First, roushi is an actual word meaning "old teacher". Meanwhile, muten is as far as I can tell just two impressive kanji thrown together: mu, referring to all things military and martial arts related, and ten, referring to the heavens. In DB Forever, Toriyama says that he didn't intend the name to have any great meaning, and that it was just supposed to sound suitably impressive.
That ten doesn't mean "heaven", I think. "top" would be better.

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Shoryuken » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:11 am

kei17 wrote:
Herms wrote:It's more like "martial-arts-heaven old teacher" (...yeah...). First, roushi is an actual word meaning "old teacher". Meanwhile, muten is as far as I can tell just two impressive kanji thrown together: mu, referring to all things military and martial arts related, and ten, referring to the heavens. In DB Forever, Toriyama says that he didn't intend the name to have any great meaning, and that it was just supposed to sound suitably impressive.
That ten doesn't mean "heaven", I think. "top" would be better.
天 (Ten) does mean heaven and in addition imperial and sky. Top would be 上 (Jou).
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by kei17 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:28 am

Shoryuken wrote:
kei17 wrote:That ten doesn't mean "heaven", I think. "top" would be better.
天 (Ten) does mean heaven and in addition imperial and sky. Top would be 上 (Jou).
You know, of course I know that because I am Japanese. Ten does mean heaven but that's just not appropriate here.

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:25 pm

kei17 wrote:That ten doesn't mean "heaven", I think. "top" would be better.
So muten would mean something like "top of the martial arts", then?
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by kei17 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:47 pm

Herms wrote:
kei17 wrote:That ten doesn't mean "heaven", I think. "top" would be better.
So muten would mean something like "top of the martial arts", then?
It's not that specific, but I guess Toriyama gave that kind of meaning to muten. Maybe ten can mean even "god". Check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian

*edit: I asked my brother about this. His opinion is that ten is from the word tensai, which means "genius" and "gifted". For your information, Kamesen'nin is called Tortue Géniale (Genius Turtle) in French dub.
Last edited by kei17 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by linkdude20002001 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:05 pm

Top of the Martial Arts would basically mean Master of the Martial Arts, wouldn't it?

Viz uses Immortal Old Master... So maybe Martial Arts God is where they got the Immortal part.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Herms » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:33 pm

kei17 wrote:*edit: I asked my brother about this. His opinion is that ten is from the word tensai, which means "genius". For your information, Kamesen'nin is called Tortue Géniale (Genius Turtle) in French dub.
That's interesting, though I thought that Tortue Géniale was the French translation of Kame-sennin rather than Muten Roushi.
linkdude20002001 wrote:Viz uses Immortal Old Master... So maybe Martial Arts God is where they got the Immortal part.
Pretty sure they call him "Invincible Old Master" rather than "Immortal~".
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by linkdude20002001 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:42 pm

Ah, I think you're right. I was close, though. :P
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:45 pm

I think Mutaito's a title rather than a name. Even though some of the other characters in the series have eccentric names with meanings, they don't flat-out seem to be titles like Muten Roshi or Mutaito. As Herms said, roshi and taito are both actual titles, so being part of the characters' names would suggest that their titles too.

I think I'm going to go with Mutaito and Muten Roshi being titles rather than names. Even though the name "Muten Roshi" is on his driver's license, it is the only "name" we have for him, we don't know if the legal system in the DB world means you have to put your real name like in the real world and it's likely that he's only known by his title now, somewhat superseding his name.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Olivier Hague » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:34 am

"Mu Taito" and "Muten Rôshi" both sound like art-names to me...

Herms wrote:I thought that Tortue Géniale was the French translation of Kame-sennin rather than Muten Roushi.
It is. Why "Géniale", you'd have to ask them though (and I wouldn't expect a very satisfying reply anyway, myself)...
As for "Muten Rôshi", the few times when the translators of the TV series actually acknowledged that name, it became "Maître... Muten"? Something that sounded close to "Muten", anyway... Maybe they changed the Japanese a bit just for the heck of it. I wouldn't put it past those clowns.

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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Herms » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:36 am

Olivier Hague wrote:"Mu Taito" and "Muten Rôshi" both sound like art-names to me...
Ah, that certainly makes sense. That's sort of what I had in mind when I said maybe it was a name he took on later in life. I said that would be basically the same thing as a title, but thinking about it now, "title" implies that the name was pre-existing and that multiple people could hold it, which isn't really true of art names.
It is. Why "Géniale", you'd have to ask them though (and I wouldn't expect a very satisfying reply anyway, myself)...
As for "Muten Rôshi", the few times when the translators of the TV series actually acknowledged that name, it became "Maître... Muten"? Something that sounded close to "Muten", anyway... Maybe they changed the Japanese a bit just for the heck of it. I wouldn't put it past those clowns.
Well, at least it's still better than "Master Roshi".
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:30 pm

Herms wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:"Mu Taito" and "Muten Rôshi" both sound like art-names to me...
Ah, that certainly makes sense. That's sort of what I had in mind when I said maybe it was a name he took on later in life. I said that would be basically the same thing as a title, but thinking about it now, "title" implies that the name was pre-existing and that multiple people could hold it, which isn't really true of art names.
Unless the old timer was the only person who could hold the titles "Kame-sennin" and "Muten Roshi". There's probably only one hermit who has turtle shells and lives with a turtle, and "Muten Roshi" may be so associated with the old timer that others wouldn't take it. Like if there was a game designer who'd brought out a bunch of awesome videogames and was then nicknamed "The Grandfather of Video Games", people would be like, "No, that's not you, that's Shigeru Miyamoto."

I think those are called "unique titles".
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mutaito - Title or Name?

Post by Olivier Hague » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:33 pm

Herms wrote:Well, at least it's still better than "Master Roshi".
Sure is. I don't think I'll ever get used to that one.

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