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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by lash » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:11 am

CatouttaHell wrote:Chibi Boo was explicitly stated TWICE to be the strongest Boo in the Anime.
More times then that.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Herms » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:07 pm

Bussani wrote:What I find the most amusing is that's probably the last thing Toriyama would make statements about. Has he ever made a real statement about the strength of a character like that? The closest I can think of is something like, "Goku's number one in the universe!" And that's a pretty offhand comment to make.
Let's see...there's one or two "Goku's #1" statements he's made like you said, then there's the "10 times" thing about Super Saiyan, and there's him saying Mister Satan isn't as strong as Bob Sapp, him saying that Bra is strong, that memo on Saibaimen he wrote that notes they're slightly inferior to Raditz, and...I think that's about it.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Kaboom » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:10 pm

Herms wrote:him saying that Bra is strong
Hmm? I'm not familiar with this one.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:17 pm

then there's the "10 times" thing about Super Saiyan
In the same interview he also mentioned the multiplier of 50 times for the Super Saiyan

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Tenshinhan-san » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:54 pm

I'm usually cool with the filler, but when the anime downright contradicts the manga it's obviously Toriyama>Toei.

Don't get me wrong, as long as there's a reasonable in-universe explanation or theory for a filler scene that doesn't seem to make much sense I'll go with it, but saying Kid Buu > Buuhan is like saying 1st Form Cell > Super Perfect Cell to me. In addition it would make the necessity for Vegetto obsolete. It doesn't make sense on multiple levels.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Herms » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:14 pm

Kaboom wrote:
him saying that Bra is strong
Hmm? I'm not familiar with this one.
It's from the "DB character section" of DB Forever's Toriyama Q&A:
Q7. Pan-chan is strong, but is Bra strong as well?
A. Well, I think she's strong.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by SylentEcho » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:31 pm

Thanks for that info. I didn't know he said that.

Getting back to the topic, I'd say it's pretty much understood that Chou Gohan is the strongest apart from Vegetto.

By the way, how does small (kid) Boo measure up to the Boo whose ass Gohan kicked? (what was that Boo's name again? :? )

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Bussani » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:49 pm

SylentEcho wrote:By the way, how does small (kid) Boo measure up to the Boo whose ass Gohan kicked? (what was that Boo's name again? :? )
The one Gotenks fought in the Room of Spirit and Time? Most fans call him Super Buu, but you can check Herms' thread on the subject of Buu names for more details. Anyway, Goku said that if either Vegeta or he tried to fight Super Buu, they'd die.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
But both were raring to go against Kid Buu, and Goku even did pretty well against him. Because of this, most people think Super Buu is stronger. That's going by the manga, at least; I wouldn't be surprised if the anime confused the subject again.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:57 pm

And there are other lines suggesting that Goku wouldn't be able to handle the Evil Boo
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
Bussani wrote:
SylentEcho wrote:By the way, how does small (kid) Boo measure up to the Boo whose ass Gohan kicked? (what was that Boo's name again? :? )
The one Gotenks fought in the Room of Spirit and Time? Most fans call him Super Buu, but you can check Herms' thread on the subject of Buu names for more details.
The author didn't cared much about Boo's names, most of them are informally given by other character (i.e. "the fat Majin Boo").

Most of the popular Internet names are fan-made (Fat Boo, Super Boo, Boohan, Buff Boo, Kid Boo, etc). The manga didn't cared about giving names for Majin Boo every time he transformed. The appropriate names would be these:

The Majin Boo revived by Babidi:
- Since he is the first that appeared in the series, calling him "Majin Boo" would be appropriate
- Using "fat Majin Boo" would be appropriate (since it's also used in the manga), note that I used lower-case
- The correct name technically is "Majin Boo with South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin absorbed" (or shortened "Majin Boo with Dai Kaioshin absorbed)

The second Majin Boo created by the first anger:
- Going by the manga, the only way to call him would be "the evil part"
- Calling him "wacky Majin Boo" would also be suitable
- The guides apparently use the names "Pure Evil Majin Boo" and "Evil Majin Boo" to diff beetween the evil part before and after absorbing the good part respectively, but that sounds too confusing (and I don't think the guides were so consistent in these names either), and it's also something strange since they are the same character. I would prefer to call them "Evil Boo" and "Evil Boo with good part absorbed"

The original Majin Boo:
- The correct name would be "Pure Majin Boo"
- You might also call him "small Majin Boo" (going by the part where Goku and Vegeta argue that the Evil Boo increased in size and later get smaller)

The absorptions made by the Majin Boo:
- "Evil Majin Boo with Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed" (or shortened "Evil Boo with Gotenks absorbed")
- "Evil Majin Boo with Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed" (or shortened "Evil Boo with Piccolo absorbed")
- "Evil Majin Boo with Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks and Goten absorbed" (or shortened "Evil Boo with Gohan absorbed")

The absorptions made by the Pure Majin Boo:
- "Majin Boo with South Kaioshin absorbed"
- "Majin Boo with Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin absorbed" (or shortened "Majin Boo with Dai Kaioshin absorbed") and of course this turns out to be the fat Majin Boo first mentioned
In this case it makes no difference whenever you call him "Majin Boo" or "Pure Majin Boo"

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by CatouttaHell » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:27 pm

Bussani wrote:But both were raring to go against Kid Buu, and Goku even did pretty well against him. Because of this, most people think Super Buu is stronger. That's going by the manga, at least; I wouldn't be surprised if the anime confused the subject again.
They underestimated Chibi Boo greatly. Vegeta said that if Mr. Boo unleashed another Chibi Boo it would be "the end of the world" despite knowing how powerful SSjin 3 Goku, Chou Gohan, and SSjin 3 Gotenks were.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to the terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
For all we know Goku just didn't want to go SSjin 3 because he had already seen how pissed off Vegeta got just from seeing him do it from elsewhere hours before. He only went SSjin 3 again after Vegeta himself approved of it, against Chibi Boo. And let's not forget that Goku said that he probably couldn't beat Fat Boo but later retconned this. I personally that his statement about Shin Boo's power were also him bullshitting, but that's just me.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by lash » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:22 am

CatouttaHell wrote:Vegeta said that if Mr. Boo unleashed another Chibi Boo it would be "the end of the world" despite knowing how powerful SSjin 3 Goku, Chou Gohan, and SSjin 3 Gotenks were.
Vegeta's right. That same Buu blew the world up once before after all.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Fox666 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:17 am

And can absorb people...
CatouttaHell wrote:I personally that his statement about Shin Boo's power were also him bullshitting, but that's just me.
Vegeta already knew about his Super Saiyan 3, didn't him?

Despite that, take in the context. Goku is not simply saying something to make Vegeta happier, he is telling him they can't go outside because of Evil Boo's power, and risking the lives of Gohan & co they just rescued.

And why would he propose to use the Potara to beat the Evil Boo? Take in mind that until them Goku had no idea that the Super Saiyan 3 had a time limit in the living world.

Lastly, after Gotenks fusion times out inside Boo, why does Goku says "This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…"?

Overall, this is a very different behavior from what he had against the Pure Majin Boo. He simply goes all out with Super Saiyan 3, and even mention he could take this or the fat Majin Boo...

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by petewentz » Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:27 pm

No underestimation occurs. Goku and Vegeta both confirm multiple times that ssj3 Goku(full power)>Kid Buu. They can sense ki, and as far as I could tell, no form of Buu was ever shown to suppress theirs. There is no reason to doubt their statements, as a less than full power ssj3 Goku fights toe-to-toe with Kid Buu, even 1 upping his Kamehameha, and causing visual damage until he regenerates an entirely new body. He never achieved his full power...so it's safe to assume their statement is correct.

It's simple logic.

Goku says(Vegeta confirms) that he can beat Kid Buu
Goku says they will die if they fight Super Buu
Super Buu>Kid Buu.

Simple.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Chou Gohan » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:54 pm

AnimeMaakuo wrote:My friend is wanting to know if Akira Toriyama really "stated" that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in the Buu saga?
I can't help but wonder, where in the world did the "unfused" jazz come from? Is it just a term randomly invented in order to crown Gohan/Goku with a fancy "strongest" title since it can be quite difficult to convince anybody that Vegetto wasn't way stronger than the rest? lol "*Sniff* I can't call him the strongest character because of that darn Vegetto... Wait! I'll say he's the strongest unfused character!" :idea:

The ironic thing about trying to find evidence of what was intended to be the story by Toriyama is the fact that the real answer would be, "whatever makes the children, and more importantly the editors, all happy." And it is unlikely any of them would be happy with an anticlimactic ending.

One thing I think is quite humorous about Buu Saga debates is the fact that about half of the people in it could probably be accused of "opinion plagiarism". For a subject with so many interpretations, it seems odd that so many seem to use the exact same views and arguments about certain things. It is almost as if many folks did not come up with their own personal view on things from reading the story, but rather just popped on a board and found a group of others insisting a certain view they all held was right and so decided to be cool and jump on the bandwagon. :lol:

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by petewentz » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:28 pm

Chou Gohan wrote: I can't help but wonder, where in the world did the "unfused" jazz come from? Is it just a term randomly invented in order to crown Gohan/Goku with a fancy "strongest" title since it can be quite difficult to convince anybody that Vegetto wasn't way stronger than the rest? lol "*Sniff* I can't call him the strongest character because of that darn Vegetto... Wait! I'll say he's the strongest unfused character!" :idea:
It's just a sub-division, a category. Obviously Tien/Krillin aren't anywhere near the Saiyans in terms of power, but people still like to debate on who the strongest human is. Or android, or form of Buu. Stuff like that. I get what you're saying, but I don't think anyone had that kind of mindset going into claiming "unfused."

One thing I think is quite humorous about Buu Saga debates is the fact that about half of the people in it could probably be accused of "opinion plagiarism". For a subject with so many interpretations, it seems odd that so many seem to use the exact same views and arguments about certain things. It is almost as if many folks did not come up with their own personal view on things from reading the story, but rather just popped on a board and found a group of others insisting a certain view they all held was right and so decided to be cool and jump on the bandwagon. :lol:
There is no bandwagon. I am not a plagiarist because I believe in evolution, despite not having discovered it myself. There are many interpretations to the way life began, yet a belief in evolution based on evidence presented is not plagiarism. The same goes for the multitude of debates surrounding the Buu saga. I have my own beliefs on certain things, that I did indeed interpret from reading the source material, but a lot of what I understand about the saga comes from the strength of others, and their views. When presenting my argument, I would present it the same way I would if I was discussing the theoretical merits of evolution.

I see no bandwagon.

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Kendamu » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:34 pm

Chou Gohan wrote:
AnimeMaakuo wrote:My friend is wanting to know if Akira Toriyama really "stated" that Ultimate Gohan was the strongest unfused fighter in the Buu saga?
I can't help but wonder, where in the world did the "unfused" jazz come from? Is it just a term randomly invented in order to crown Gohan/Goku with a fancy "strongest" title since it can be quite difficult to convince anybody that Vegetto wasn't way stronger than the rest? lol "*Sniff* I can't call him the strongest character because of that darn Vegetto... Wait! I'll say he's the strongest unfused character!" :idea:
1) Welcome to Daizenshuu EX! :D

2) I think you're thinking way too hard about the whole "unfused" business. Think about it the same way as a "Who is the strongest human," discussion. If you go by your logic in what you just said, then "People just wanna give a human a fancy title when we all know that Vegetto is the strongest!!!" is the only answer to anything ever. How does that help the discussion at all?

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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Kaboom » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:35 pm

Y'know, come to think of it, Gotenks and Vegetto both only existed temporarily. When you consider that, then as things stood at the end of it all Gohan really was straight-up the "strongest."
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:39 pm

Kaboom wrote:Y'know, come to think of it, Gotenks and Vegetto both only existed temporarily. When you consider that, then as things stood at the end of it all Gohan really was straight-up the "strongest."
How does whether or not they were in the story temporarily matter in terms of who's the strongest?
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Kaboom » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:45 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:How does whether or not they were in the story temporarily matter in terms of who's the strongest?
I'm just saying "at the end," here. Character A can't be stronger than Character B if Character A no longer exists, right? That's all.
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Re: Was Ultimate Gohan stated by Toriyama to be the stronges

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:47 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:How does whether or not they were in the story temporarily matter in terms of who's the strongest?
I'm just saying "at the end," here. Character A can't be stronger than Character B if Character A no longer exists, right? That's all.
I guess so. But that's not what people are talking about. It's in a general sense of who's the strongest ever. But then you have people who speculate that Goku may've surpassed Gohan with SSj3 by the end of the series, etc.
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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