Base Saiyans

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Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:08 pm

How strong do you place the base saiyans at the ~start~ of the Buu arc? I personally believe they've got to be pretty strong if Vegeta was confident in winning the tournament while remaining base. He knows how strong Piccolo is and #18, he knows the gains he's made. It's just a little circumstantial evidence that kind of tips the iceberg.

There's also Dabura being asked to pick the 3 strongest to enter the ship, he picks base Gohan, Goku and Vegeta over Krillin and Piccolo. Dabura is also shocked at how much Goku's power went up after going super saiyan, which suggest that he didn't know about the transformation, or that Goku could raise his PL to that extreme, which means he picked them based on their base form and not some hidden potential.

Just my two cents, but I'm open to any theory as I'm asking the question not stating an answer!
So when you reply to each part of this, make sure you give evidence of why you think they're weaker/stronger or whatever, instead of simply refuting mine.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by CatouttaHell » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:16 pm

Going by my numbers:

Base Goku - 30,000,000,000
Cell Games SSjin Goku - 25,000,000,000
Base Vegeta - 20,000,000,000
Base Gohan - 6,000,000,000
Piccolo - 4,500,000,000

I agree with what you said. Son Gohan entered the tournament aiming to win as well, and he was the one who came up with/suggested the idea for everyone to stay in their base forms. I think Piccolo doubled his strength in the 7 year gap but it just wasn't enough for him to catch up with the Saiya-jins.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:19 pm

At most like this (from 0:20 to 0:25). No higher, thanks.

Dabra (or Babidi) doesn't know how to sense ki, yet they thought all three could somewhat put a fight against Pui Pui. The whole scene is just a way to move the story along. They're all suppressed either way.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:38 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:At most like this (from 0:20 to 0:25). No higher, thanks.

Dabra (or Babidi) doesn't know how to sense ki, yet they thought all three could somewhat put a fight against Pui Pui. The whole scene is just a way to move the story along. They're all suppressed either way.
If Dabra couldn't sense ki, how did he know where they were if they were suppressed? You shot your own logic in the foot. And Dabra never suggests anything about Pui-Pui's strength or how he will fair against the saiyans. And I guess the whole tournament scene was just...whatever, right?

By the way that's an opening to a video game, hardly evidence of anything here. Even as an example of what you believe it's a poor one, as we don't know what Frieza's level of strength is. Is he using 2%, 50%, 75%? We have no idea. Besides, Goku preforms similar feats against Frieza while at base anyway.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:53 pm

petewentz wrote:If Dabra couldn't sense ki, how did he know where they were if they were suppressed? You shot your own logic in the foot.
Did you read my post? The whole scene was basically a way to move the story along. Nothing about powers or whomever is the strongest.
petewentz wrote:And Dabra never suggests anything about Pui-Pui's strength or how he will fair against the saiyans.
That is actually known through Pui Pui. And who warns Pui Pui is Babidi.
petewentz wrote:By the way that's an opening to a video game, hardly evidence of anything here.
Evidence of what? There isn't evidence for anything the thread's is asking. I was just giving my opinion. I posted the video because I didn't want to post "Goku's norm at most could kill suppressed Freeza in an instant".

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:56 pm

Let's see, here...

It wouldn't be the first time Vegeta's been arrogant and overly confident. Besides, there's no guarantee he'd even abide by that rule if it got in the way of him facing off with Goku.

Gohan proposed the rule so as to protect his identity, which is the entire reason he entered in the first place: Videl's blackmail. He's not personally concerned with winning, as Chi-Chi will end up getting her prize money either way (If Piccolo wins, what do you think he's going to do with it?)

Everybody was suppressed and masking their Ki, so Dabra couldn't have been sensing it to determine their position. He says something like, "those three have great potential energy," but how could that possibly be the case if everyone is down to, at most, a 2 or 3? He must have had some other method of insight to detect them, as well as to know who was the strongest without any knowledge of how (which would be Super Saiyan). He's the King of the Demon World with magic powers, after all.

As for why the Base Saiyans aren't way up there... Well, the biggest example would be how well Piccolo was keeping up during the Cell Games, I suppose.

I think the kids would be a good measuring stick, too. They didn't stand a chance against 18 without Super Saiyan, with which they also weren't too far behind the adults. Given just how large the base-to-SSj boost is, Android 18 would fall somewhere right between the Saiyans' base forms and Super Saiyan power at this point.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Tenshinhan-san » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:00 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:Going by my numbers:

Base Goku - 30,000,000,000
Cell Games SSjin Goku - 25,000,000,000
Base Vegeta - 20,000,000,000
Base Gohan - 6,000,000,000
Piccolo - 4,500,000,000

I agree with what you said. Son Gohan entered the tournament aiming to win as well, and he was the one who came up with/suggested the idea for everyone to stay in their base forms. I think Piccolo doubled his strength in the 7 year gap but it just wasn't enough for him to catch up with the Saiya-jins.
Didn't you have the humans above the base Saiyans?

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:03 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote: Did you read my post? The whole scene was basically a way to move the story along. Nothing about powers or whatever is the strongest.
Except Babidi literally says, "pick the 3 strongest"...I don't know what you're talking about.
That is actually known through Pui Pui. And who warns Pui Pui is Babidi.
The man we're discussing is Dabra, not Babidi. Dabra never makes a claim to Pui-Pui's strength or how he will fair against Vegeta.

Evidence of what? There isn't evidence for anything the thread's is asking. I was just giving my opinion. I posted the video because I didn't want to post "Goku's norm at most could kill suppressed Freeza in an instant".
You should have just posted that...lol, much easier than making someone watch a video game opening...

And by your own admission, there isn't any evidence to suggest the base saiyans are weaker than what you claim, while there is evidence, however slight and speculative, to suggest they're stronger.

----
(If Piccolo wins, what do you think he's going to do with it?)


Complete fabrication on your part. It's never stated anywhere that Piccolo donates his money to Gohan...lol, you are just assuming based on zero evidence that he would. Sure it's likely he has no need for it, but I could just as easily say, with no evidence, that he transmutes the money into food...
I think the kids would be a good measuring stick, too. They didn't stand a chance against 18 without Super Saiyan, with which they also weren't too far behind the adults. Given just how large the base-to-SSj boost is, Android 18 would fall somewhere right between the Saiyans' base forms and Super Saiyan power at this point.
Except, they were fighting on top of one another in a costume that would naturally hinder their movement. They were actually doing ~well~ for what the circumstances were.

And as for Vegeta's comments...I suppose this comes down to that fundamental difference in how we view the source material, friend. Vegeta has only been arrogant against strengths that he didn't yet know...such as #18, yet against Frieza he knew he stood no chance from the beginning. He would have known Piccolo's strength after fusing with Kami...why would he think he could win?

Just my two cents. Counter arguments and evidence presented. tehehheeh

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:07 pm

Actually Babidi is the first to note they're been watching and he doesn't know how to sense ki. Whatever he did to sense the fighters Dabra did the same too.

And Goten and Trunks couldn't win by close combat against #18 even as Super Saiyan in that costume.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:08 pm

petewentz wrote:
(If Piccolo wins, what do you think he's going to do with it?)

Complete fabrication on your part.
Well... yeah, duh. That wasn't even the crux of my comment. I'm just pointing out how getting the prize money isn't actually a priority for Gohan. Protecting his identity is, and he'd care about that more than actually winning the tournament.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:09 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Actually Babidi is the first to note they're been watching and he doesn't know how to sense ki. Whatever he did to sense the fighters Dabra did the same too.
Good point. Will note that in the record.
And Goten and Trunks couldn't win by close combat against #18 even as Super Saiyan in that costume.
No evidence of that claim.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:13 pm

petewentz wrote:No evidence of that claim.
Can you stop with that?! Trunks said that so of course there are evidence, otherwise I wouldn't even post such thing.
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks-kun!”
Trunks: “Th-that it. We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this setup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:08 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:
Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this setup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”
How do you get that #18>ssj Trunks/Goten from that quote? Bolded points for emphasis, he clearly says "in this set up" and Goten wonders if their max power might kill her...

Hardly evidence for your claim.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by CatouttaHell » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:45 pm

Tenshinhan-san wrote:Didn't you have the humans above the base Saiyans?
I used to, yeah. I still don't consider them weak though. I'll get flamed to oblivion for saying this by the hordes that think that an Earthling surpassing even 100% Freeza is impossible, but I think GT Tenshinhan is almost as strong as GT Piccolo.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Fox666 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:29 pm

Kaboom wrote:Let's see, here...

It wouldn't be the first time Vegeta's been arrogant and overly confident. Besides, there's no guarantee he'd even abide by that rule if it got in the way of him facing off with Goku.

Gohan proposed the rule so as to protect his identity, which is the entire reason he entered in the first place: Videl's blackmail. He's not personally concerned with winning, as Chi-Chi will end up getting her prize money either way (If Piccolo wins, what do you think he's going to do with it?)

Everybody was suppressed and masking their Ki, so Dabra couldn't have been sensing it to determine their position. He says something like, "those three have great potential energy," but how could that possibly be the case if everyone is down to, at most, a 2 or 3? He must have had some other method of insight to detect them, as well as to know who was the strongest without any knowledge of how (which would be Super Saiyan). He's the King of the Demon World with magic powers, after all.
I don't know how Babidi and Dabura knew about the three saiyans energy.Despite that, look what they say:
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…
Gohan Super Saiyan 2 energy was enough to fill almost half of the energy required to revive Majin Boo. So isn't there something strange here, if the three of them are enough to revive Majin Boo, wouldn't Gohan have almost the same amount of energy as in his Super Saiyan 2 form and his normal form??

To put it in numbers:
- Gohan energy as a Super Saiyan 2: 5,000
- Energy required to revive Majin Boo: 12,000
- Energy from each saiyan in their base form: over 4,000??

Despite the statement of the three of them having enough energy to revive Majin Boo, the reason why he come to life isn't because Goku and Vegeta fought at the Super Saiyan 2 level?? Or is it mere a question of how fast he was revived?

Aghh, this "energy" thing is confusing. As far I can tell the whole thing about the saiyans having more energy than Piccolo can be ignored. It doesn't make sense at all for the three 3 of themm have enough energy to revive Majin Boo, if energy means power.

So the best assumption is that the energy doesn't equal to power.

This was iimplied when we face the fact that Kaioshin and Kibito energies cannot be used. And after Babidi face the fact that Goku had 3,000 Kiri (which represents power as Yakon "can't win against him") he makes no mention on how easier it would be to revive Majin Boo, as he usually does.
Kaboom wrote:As for why the Base Saiyans aren't way up there... Well, the biggest example would be how well Piccolo was keeping up during the Cell Games, I suppose.

I think the kids would be a good measuring stick, too. They didn't stand a chance against 18 without Super Saiyan, with which they also weren't too far behind the adults. Given just how large the base-to-SSj boost is, Android 18 would fall somewhere right between the Saiyans' base forms and Super Saiyan power at this point.
Well, despite some discrepancies (or plot-holes?) when Toriyama faced the question of how strong the base saiyans are, it seems he didn't feel they surpassed the power they had as Super Saiyans on earlier arcs.

While we don't get the answer directly from comparing Goku or Vegeta, we do with Goten and Trunks twice. The two kids are full-power Super Saiyans (and if there is one moment which their base form could get really stronger it was in the transition to this state) and still they were no match for no.18 in their normal forms. Despite that, it is clear stated that after Gotenks fusion timed-out inside Evil Boo, Piccolo was the strongest individual inside him.
Last edited by Fox666 on Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:57 pm

Well, that's what I'm trying to suggest about what Bobbidi and Dabra said. Through some unknown means, they know that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have a great amount of power (more than Piccolo and far more than their normal forms), perhaps even enough to revive Boo. Yet they don't actually know where that power comes from (Super Saiyan), simply out of ignorance. Nor do they realize the full extent of that it, as is evident from Pui-Pui and Yakon's unexpected failures and Goku or Vegeta being able to wipe the floor with Dabra.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:13 pm

Kaboom wrote:Well, that's what I'm trying to suggest about what Bobbidi and Dabra said. Through some unknown means, they know that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have a great amount of power (more than Piccolo and far more than their normal forms), perhaps even enough to revive Boo. Yet they don't actually know where that power comes from (Super Saiyan), simply out of ignorance. Nor do they realize the full extent of that it, as is evident from Pui-Pui and Yakon's unexpected failures and Goku or Vegeta being able to wipe the floor with Dabra.
Agreed, to an extent...but Dabra was shocked at the Kiri reading out put, which suggest he didn't know that Goku was capable of that kind of power.
Well, despite some discrepancies (or plot-holes?) when Toriyama faced the question of how strong the base saiyans are, it seems he didn't feel they surpassed the power they had as Super Saiyans on earlier arcs.
He said this in an interview, or what?
While we don't get the answer directly from comparing Goku or Vegeta, we do with Goten and Trunks twice. The two kids are full-power Super Saiyans (and if there is one moment which their base form could get really stronger it was in the transition to this state) and still they were no match for no.18 in their normal forms. Despite that, it is clear stated that after Gotenks fusion timed-out inside Evil Boo, Piccolo was the strongest individual inside him.
^^^ Fat Buu was comparable to the Dai Kai visually despite the South Kai being the strongest...that argument falls apart right there.

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:19 pm

petewentz wrote:Agreed, to an extent...but Dabra was shocked at the Kiri reading out put, which suggest he didn't know that Goku was capable of that kind of power.
Maybe we're more in agreement than you think. It's exactly the same as what I'm suggesting.

Before: "Hey, maybe we'll get enough from all three of them to revive Boo!"
After: "Holy cow, just this one guy alone has that much power?"
petewentz wrote:
Well, despite some discrepancies (or plot-holes?) when Toriyama faced the question of how strong the base saiyans are, it seems he didn't feel they surpassed the power they had as Super Saiyans on earlier arcs.
He said this in an interview, or what?
I'm curious, too. Never heard of that before.
petewentz wrote:
While we don't get the answer directly from comparing Goku or Vegeta, we do with Goten and Trunks twice. The two kids are full-power Super Saiyans (and if there is one moment which their base form could get really stronger it was in the transition to this state) and still they were no match for no.18 in their normal forms. Despite that, it is clear stated that after Gotenks fusion timed-out inside Evil Boo, Piccolo was the strongest individual inside him.
^^^ Fat Buu was comparable to the Dai Kai visually despite the South Kai being the strongest...that argument falls apart right there.
There is some merit to it. It's not like Boo willingly chose to take after Piccolo all of a sudden. It just happened automatically when Gotenks' Fusion time ran out. If it's not something that Boo purposely controlled, then what else but power would have been the cause of such influence?

It's the same with the Kaioshin. Even though one was stronger than the other, the weaker one actually still had more of an impact on Boo's power, and thus is the one Boo took after.

Besides, I seem to remember Goku's line being about it being, "so now you're getting your power from Piccolo!" or "So now Piccolo's coming out strong!" or something of that sort.
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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by Fox666 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:57 pm

Kaboom wrote:
petewentz wrote:
Well, despite some discrepancies (or plot-holes?) when Toriyama faced the question of how strong the base saiyans are, it seems he didn't feel they surpassed the power they had as Super Saiyans on earlier arcs.
He said this in an interview, or what?
I'm curious, too. Never heard of that before.
I am just making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be something that Toriyama really said. Something like "what was the author thinking when he wrote this??"
petewentz wrote:
While we don't get the answer directly from comparing Goku or Vegeta, we do with Goten and Trunks twice. The two kids are full-power Super Saiyans (and if there is one moment which their base form could get really stronger it was in the transition to this state) and still they were no match for no.18 in their normal forms. Despite that, it is clear stated that after Gotenks fusion timed-out inside Evil Boo, Piccolo was the strongest individual inside him.
^^^ Fat Buu was comparable to the Dai Kai visually despite the South Kai being the strongest...that argument falls apart right there.
It's explictly said that it's the power in question:

Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! (...)

Of course it could be that Goku know shit about Boo's absorption, but even if that is the case Goku seems to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks

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Re: Base Saiyans

Post by petewentz » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:06 pm

Fox666 wrote: Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! (...)

Of course it could be that Goku know shit about Boo's absorption, but even if that is the case Goku seems to believe that Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks
No, no like I said, in my interpretations of the manga, character statements are to be taken literally without second guessing(unless contradicted)...

But Piccolo is greater18 before the RoSaT training in the cell games, so I doubt Piccolo is greater trunks/goten has much basis for Piccolo>Gohan/Goku/Vegeta

There's also a theory, that I don't necessarily agree with or disagree with, but it says that Pui-Pui is stronger than Kaioshin who is stronger than Frieza, which would make the base saiyans at least stronger than Frieza, but I don't necessarily agree with it. There's not enough evidence and Kaioshin could have likely just been cautious for the saiyan's sake...but then again, they've witnessed Gohan's ssj2 power, so why would Kaioshin want them to all gang up on him? I don't know

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