SSJ Goku ( Cell Games ) at the very best.Noah wrote:Strongest Z character current 18 can beat?
Nothing implies #18 got much stronger since DBZ. Unlike #17 & Piccolo.
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SSJ Goku ( Cell Games ) at the very best.Noah wrote:Strongest Z character current 18 can beat?
Wrong.Helios518 wrote: There's about zero feats that contradicts about moon-busting.
I'm not assuming anything. You are the one assuming. I never even said the multiplier changed, I said we don't know if it did or not so you can't say it's a face. You are assuming and I'm telling you not to.You're still assuming it did change at all though which would be fair but we clearly see Freeza still not master his 100%
Except Frieza's transformations were flat out stated to be different since they are restrictions that contain his true power, he doesn't transform to multiply his power, besides his golden form, which we already know has a different multiplier than in the RoF arc since he mastered it.Every time we've were told how a transformation works, we were told its a multiplier. Sure, you could substract
Nothing contradicts true god tiers being universal. But SSG at this point was just a regular power boost that wasn't even 1% of Beerus' power. If SSG was 60% of Beerus like in BoG or even 10% then it would make sense. However if SSG is universe level then current SSB kkx20 Goku should be like 100x universe level which clearly isn't the case.Nothing in Super has contradicted that god-tiers are universal.
There is still too many things we don't know. There is a reason there are plenty of people who don't think he is universe level, especially non dragon ball forums.1) the world could also mean the universe and 2) even if he just meant Earth was going to get destroyed, the world/Earth would still be destroyed if the universe is as well
1) What does he mean by "Warping" the planet?dragon boss z wrote:The damage done by Recoome's eraser gun "terrified" Krillin, who had a confirmed power level of over 10,000. And he specifically said the damage done, not the strength or potency of the attack so you can't argue that.
There's nothing wrong with SSJBKKx20 Goku being 100x universal because power levels don't scale destruction power linearly like I mention earlier and even if it did, it would probably take a lot more energy than 100x SSJG to be able to destroy 2 universes at once. In fact, the jump from being able to destroy just our solar system to our solar system + the nearest one is about a billions of times difference in energy, this scaling applies to galaxies and planet.Nothing contradicts true god tiers being universal. But SSG at this point was just a regular power boost that wasn't even 1% of Beerus' power. If SSG was 60% of Beerus like in BoG or even 10% then it would make sense. However if SSG is universe level then current SSB kkx20 Goku should be like 100x universe level which clearly isn't the case.
No, we actually know more than enough. If it was just the shock-waves then I would understand because that was wonky af in the anime but even after the shock-waves, the narrator outright stated Goku and Beerus are hitting with the power to destroy the universe and then to add on to that, they both made a ball of energy that it would destroy the universe if it bursted.There is still too many things we don't know.
What forums do you go to? I frequent WWW Reddit, and sometimes binge Space Battles, Comic Vine, OBD, and Vs Battle Wiki and the consensus is that BoG SSJG is universal.There is a reason there are plenty of people who don't think he is universe level, especially non dragon ball forums.
Uub is at the very least as strong as Ssj3 Goku (Z), so he stomps those two.AvatarReiko wrote:GT Uub vs Base Kale & Caulifa
I assume it meant how the ground was misshapen.Helios518 wrote: 1) What does he mean by "Warping" the planet?
That is kind of pushing it. That clearly isn't what Toriyama wasn't intending with Krillin's line.2) This displays more of Kuririn's ignorance reaction towards destruction feats. You could just say he's capable of moon/planet busting but never seen destruction close to that. You seriously think that Kuririn on his free time, tries to test his destruction power?
all Piccolo's island level attack did was clean the surface of the island, even some of the tiles were left over and hiding in a shallow pit saved everyone. Recoome's attack made a deep crater that warped the land around it.3) Also I'm pretty sure that Piccolo's island level attack caused more destruction than that feat, which would contradict this feat because Kuririn is making it seem like he never seen destruction close to this level when in fact, he's seen a lot more.
You can try using in universe logic to justify that, but none of the authors or toriyama would agree with you that Goku is anywhere close to 100x universe level.There's nothing wrong with SSJBKKx20 Goku being 100x universal because power levels don't scale destruction power linearly like I mention earlier and even if it did, it would probably take a lot more energy than 100x SSJG to be able to destroy 2 universes at once. In fact, the jump from being able to destroy just our solar system to our solar system + the nearest one is about a billions of times difference in energy, this scaling applies to galaxies and planet.
The narrator was just saying how the universe could be destroyed. I never once saw him say Goku has the power to destroy the entire universe in one attack. Him having the power to destroy the universe could mean over time. I have the power to destroy a house with a sledge hammer. Doesn't mean I can do it in one swing. And you can't argue that anybody could destroy the universe with enough time, because most characters would die from old age before even getting close or not even be able to destroy the largest stars. SSG Goku having the power to destroy the universes just means he can do it, it doesn't mean he can do it with one move.No, we actually know more than enough. If it was just the shock-waves then I would understand because that was wonky af in the anime but even after the shock-waves, the narrator outright stated Goku and Beerus are hitting with the power to destroy the universe and then to add on to that, they both made a ball of energy that it would destroy the universe if it bursted.
Comic vine, and that is definitely not the consensus.What forums do you go to? I frequent WWW Reddit, and sometimes binge Space Battles, Comic Vine, OBD, and Vs Battle Wiki and the consensus is that BoG SSJG is universal.
What he said.Roronoa-pt wrote:SSJ Goku ( Cell Games ) at the very best.Noah wrote:Strongest Z character current 18 can beat?
Nothing implies #18 got much stronger since DBZ. Unlike #17 & Piccolo.
I agree here as well.Zamasu55 wrote:Uub is at the very least as strong as Ssj3 Goku (Z), so he stomps those two.AvatarReiko wrote:GT Uub vs Base Kale & Caulifa
Ninety-three years of Kaio training... and a potential unlock?? I assume he's waiting until the potential is fully unlocked (since Guru's unlock seems to release more and more power over time going by Krillin randomly jumping from 10,000ish to 20,000ish to 75,000 during his time on Namek) before the fight starts, too?An Immortal Yamcha, after training with King Kai for 93 years, and then getting his Potential Unlocked by Grand Elder Guru against Fourth Form Frieza from the Frieza Saga.
Same argument could be said on what Toriyama was intending when Vegeta said he was going to destroy the plan. Also you would still have to be ignoring the moon-feat to make logical sense of Recoome's feat.dragon boss z wrote:That is kind of pushing it. That clearly isn't what Toriyama wasn't intending with Krillin's line.
all Piccolo's island level attack did was clean the surface of the island, even some of the tiles were left over and hiding in a shallow pit saved everyone. Recoome's attack made a deep crater that warped the land around it.3) Also I'm pretty sure that Piccolo's island level attack caused more destruction than that feat, which would contradict this feat because Kuririn is making it seem like he never seen destruction close to this level when in fact, he's seen a lot more.
That's fine, they don't have to agree with me because all of the evidence of story points to SSJG being universal right. It's no different than Toriyama suddenly decided to say that Current Goten is stronger than SSJG Goku, he would be wrong because it clearly contradicts the story established what's right.You can try using in universe logic to justify that, but none of the authors or toriyama would agree with you that Goku is anywhere close to 100x universe level.
The narrator was just saying how the universe could be destroyed.
Yeah, clearly over the time it takes a battle between Goku and Beerus.Him having the power to destroy the universe could mean over time.
Even if SSJG Goku's punch could only destroy 1/1000th of the universe aka still multi-galaxy level, it would still be above what any character in GT has been shown or said to be capable of.SSG Goku having the power to destroy the universes just means he can do it, it doesn't mean he can do it with one move.
Wow, the best argument I've seen for the opposing side is "Hell no" & "outliers". Which is an ignorant argument at best.
I have multiple things to say about this.Helios518 wrote: Same argument could be said on what Toriyama was intending when Vegeta said he was going to destroy the plan. Also you would still have to be ignoring the moon-feat to make logical sense of Recoome's feat.
Dragon ball is the type of thing that will flat out say potara fussion is permanent, and then all of a sudden say it lasts an hour if you aren't a supreme kai just to fit the narrative. I just go with whatever the story presents at the current time, and I don't think they are presenting current SSG Goku as universal.That's fine, they don't have to agree with me because all of the evidence of story points to SSJG being universal right. It's no different than Toriyama suddenly decided to say that Current Goten is stronger than SSJG Goku, he would be wrong because it clearly contradicts the story established what's right.
It still could of meant, and probably meant over time.The narrator clearly states "hitting each other with the power capable of destroying the universe" and this is when SSJG absorbed SSJ Goku and suppressed Beerus were just having their "brawl".
Which I'm fine with and already stated is possible. If those two fought long enough the universe could of eventually been destroyed.Yeah, clearly over the time it takes a battle between Goku and Beerus.
I feel like the dragon ball universe is far smaller than ours, especially with there only being 28 planets with life.Even if SSJG Goku's punch could only destroy 1/1000th of the universe aka still multi-galaxy level, it would still be above what any character in GT has been shown or said to be capable of.
Not saying all of them had good arguments, just saying most people don't think he is. And if he is, that means the show has failed to properly portray his power.Wow, the best argument I've seen for the opposing side is "Hell no" & "outliers". Which is an ignorant argument at best.
If you and I are thinking about the same thing when it comes to "planets with a large chunk out of them" then Vegeta's would've feat would be much better than Recoome's feat.dragon boss z wrote:1. We don't know exactly what "destroy" the planet means. If you look up destroyed planet on google images most pictures are just planets with a large chunk out of them, which would make sense with what I'm saying. Though I do think the first thing that comes to mind is him destroying the whole planet.
This is easily a case that Freeza's crew (besides Vegeta) don't have attacks that could destroy planets and even if they did, couldn't achieve so anywhere near as casual as even 1st form Freeza.Toryima may of changed his mind in the Frieza saga. We have multiple statements implying Frieza was the only one among his crew who could destroy "entire" planets.
Dragon ball is the type of thing that will flat out say potara fussion is permanent, and then all of a sudden say it lasts an hour if you aren't a supreme kai just to fit the narrative.
If you want to ignore attack potency (again), then they don't even present characters like RoF Gohan, Tagoma, RoF Piccolo as planet level.I just go with whatever the story presents at the current time, and I don't think they are presenting current SSG Goku as universal.
No, it can't. It's like stating an MMA fighter is hitting with the force of 300 psi. No one (besides you) will assume they mean over the time of a fight.It still could of meant, and probably meant over time.
Yeah, it almost did when energy ball exploded and Beerus had to nullify it to prevent the universe's demise.Which I'm fine with and already stated is possible. If those two fought long enough the universe could of eventually been destroyed.
We already talked about how that could mean there's only a low population in the universe and not that the universe itself is small.I feel like the dragon ball universe is far smaller than ours, especially with there only being 28 planets with life.
No, Toei gave us an entire episode of their universal power and even after that episode, they threw more statements from Whis, Elder Kaioshin, and Beerus that the universe would be destroyed. Like what do you and they want for proof? Goku and Beerus to actually destroy the universe, killing everybody?Not saying all of them had good arguments, just saying most people don't think he is. And if he is, that means the show has failed to properly portray his power.
Yes, but Vegeta's full power charged up galic gun could of easily of been close to a power level of 40,000 which is far above that version of Krillin. Recoome's eraser gun was almost casual and could arguably spam it. I'm not saying what we saw from the eraser gun was there limit, just that Krillin being terrified by that level of DC with a power level far above the people who destroyed the moon calls the moon feats into question. Also the only close up of the dragon ball moon we see is when Goku goes there on his power pole and it looks small, though you could chalk that up to artistic stile. Also if you go by anime filler it took Goku longer to get to Kami's lookout than the moon implying it may also be closer, though I think that is just more of the writers not thinking when they did that.Helios518 wrote: If you and I are thinking about the same thing when it comes to "planets with a large chunk out of them" then Vegeta's would've feat would be much better than Recoome's feat.
Possibly, but when we have these linesThis is easily a case that Freeza's crew (besides Vegeta) don't have attacks that could destroy planets and even if they did, couldn't achieve so anywhere near as casual as even 1st form Freeza.
Multiple things have me questioning it like in the ToP arc when Zeno destroys U9 Goku and Vegeta talk about it like it's impressive and ssj2 Kefla said she feels like she could destroy a universe, meaning before she didn't feel that way and her base was above or around SSG.It is but a no retcon of sorts came out for Goku not being universal.
Having universal attack potency isn't the same has being able to universe bust. For example the androids have planetary attack potency, but I doubt they could actually destroy a planet without a proper ki attack.If you want to ignore attack potency (again), then they don't even present characters like RoF Gohan, Tagoma, RoF Piccolo as planet level.
That is not even close to the same... Like seriously, a terrible example and nobody would think that it meant over time in that example because it is obvious and pretty much a strawman on your part.No, it can't. It's like stating an MMA fighter is hitting with the force of 300 psi. No one (besides you) will assume they mean over the time of a fight. No one (besides you) will assume they mean over the time of a fight.
Yet the even stronger condensed blast made a tiny explosion that didn't even cover the planet (yet somehow the light from it reached the kais?).Yeah, it almost did when energy ball exploded and Beerus had to nullify it to prevent the universe's demise.
That episode was just them trying to build hype and tension. We don't even know who exactly came up with those lines, for all we know it could of been the writer of that particular episode, maybe not even the higher ups of Toei. And like I said it could of been retconned. If you want to go by statements that were flat out stated then ssj2 rage Vegeta is 10% of Beerus. And no Beerus had no reason to lie, I'm not even sure if anybody heard him say that since Vegeta was unconscious and falling and he was in the sky far above everyone else. He did lie to Goku later, but that was to motivate him to fight harder, Vegeta had already lost. Where did this 10% line come from you ask? My guess they were still going by the original SSG is 60% of Beerus thing where Vegeta being that strong would make sense. Then it would also make sense for them to think SSG Goku was universal since Toriyama probably told them Beerus is universal, so if 60% + 60% = 120% then them fighting would be above universe level, thus creating universal destruction. But then later Toriyama probably told them, oh ya SSG Goku is actually nowhere near Beerus and neither is SSB Goku, so Toei had to back track.No, Toei gave us an entire episode of their universal power and even after that episode, they threw more statements from Whis, Elder Kaioshin, and Beerus that the universe would be destroyed.
Well Zeno did it. Also when Beerus and Champa fought they said it threatened the universe, but not when Goku and Frieza fought, or Goku/Vegeta vs Zamasu. That tells me that it has to be a GoD level fight to destroy the universe, which like I said above Toei thought SSG Goku vs Beerus was supposed to be a near GoD level fight at the time.Like what do you and they want for proof? Goku and Beerus to actually destroy the universe, killing everybody?
dragon boss z wrote: I'm not saying what we saw from the eraser gun was there limit, just that Krillin being terrified by that level of DC with a power level far above the people who destroyed the moon calls the moon feats into question.
Toriyama gave out the distance between Earth and the Moon for DB (it's the same distance between the RL versions) in one of his volume Q & As. I'm in mobile rn, so I'll give it later unless you want to search for it.Also the only close up of the dragon ball moon we see is when Goku goes there on his power pole and it looks small, though you could chalk that up to artistic stile. Also if you go by anime filler it took Goku longer to get to Kami's lookout than the moon implying it may also be closer, though I think that is just more of the writers not thinking when they did that.
That moment contradicts the time he destroyed Planet Vegeta. 1st form Freeza casually destroy a planet with 10x gravity but 4th form failed at destroying a planet with similar mass to Earth.hen we have Frieza flat out failing to destroy Namek in one blast. Yes he was holding back, but Frieza in his final form while holding back should still be leagues above Vegeta. Would Vegeta's galic gun in the saiyan saga really been stronger than a ki attack that 50% Frieza actually charaged up for a few seconds in the manga and actually a lot longer in the anime?
Those planets must have a lot of massconsidering what 1st form Freeza did and how much stronger 4th form is.And then we even have King Cold implying him and Frieza may not even be able to one shot some planets.
I don't recall thisAnd Vegeta even said if Goku dodges the blast he could save himself
Considering how enraged Vegeta is, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't care if he dies at that point as long as he humiliates Goku.And I doubt Vegeta would want to kill himself either and he didn't even attempt to go great ape yet so he wasn't even out of options.
Multiple things have me questioning it like in the ToP arc when Zeno destroys U9 Goku and Vegeta talk about it like it's impressive
It wouldn't have been any different if she said Planet or universe because I doubt Kale/Caulifa blew up a celestial object much less a universe. So at that point, Kafla was guessing her DC.and ssj2 Kefla said she feels like she could destroy a universe, meaning before she didn't feel that way and her base was above or around SSG.
So SSJG has universe attack potency.Having universal attack potency isn't the same has being able to universe bust. For example the androids have planetary attack potency, but I doubt they could actually destroy a planet without a proper ki attack.
That is not even close to the same... Like seriously, a terrible example and nobody would think that it meant over time in that example because it is obvious and pretty much a strawman on your part.
It's more like a fighter punching a brick wall over and over cracking it and breaking it with each punch and someone watching saying "those punches will destroy the brick wall!" or "that guy has the power to destroy that brick wall!". Doesn't meant the guy could do it in one punch.
Is it too early to remind you about attack potency?Yet the even stronger condensed blast made a tiny explosion that didn't even cover the planet (yet somehow the light from it reached the kais?).
So you're just guessing at this point? Alright.I know, but I doubt Toriyama would make such an empty universe, it just doesn't make sense. Just like he limited his multi verse to only having 12 universe, while if the multiverse theory is true there would be infinite in our reality. If I had to guess how big the universes are in dragon ball I would say we pretty much saw most of it when Super Shenron was at full size. It would make sense for him to be as big as the universe.
That episode was just them trying to build hype and tension. We don't even know who exactly came up with those lines, for all we know it could of been the writer of that particular episode, maybe not even the higher ups of Toei.
And like I said it could of been retconned. If you want to go by statements that were flat out stated then ssj2 rage Vegeta is 10% of Beerus. And no Beerus had no reason to lie, I'm not even sure if anybody heard him say that since Vegeta was unconscious and falling and he was in the sky far above everyone else. He did lie to Goku later, but that was to motivate him to fight harder, Vegeta had already lost. Where did this 10% line come from you ask? My guess they were still going by the original SSG is 60% of Beerus thing where Vegeta being that strong would make sense.
Again, more guessing.Then it would also make sense for them to think SSG Goku was universal since Toriyama probably told them Beerus is universal, so if 60% + 60% = 120% then them fighting would be above universe level, thus creating universal destruction. But then later Toriyama probably told them, oh ya SSG Goku is actually nowhere near Beerus and neither is SSB Goku, so Toei had to back track
Because everyone escaped the time-line to be safe. If Zeno decided to do the same to the main time-line then the series would effectively end.Well Zeno did it.
So did Goku and BeerusAlso when Beerus and Champa fought they said it threatened the universe
[/quote]but not when Goku and Frieza fought, or Goku/Vegeta vs Zamasu.
Krillin specifically mentioned the damage it did to the planet. Not one fat before that did so much damage to the ground below it. Even the large attack nappa did the ground was still completely flat under his feat. The only deep crater someone created was actually from Nappa again, but it was much smaller than Recoome's attack and Piccolo was still amazed by how deep the crater was, again, implying that level of power is impressive. And this is the same Piccolo that moon busted but much stronger, so you can't say he doesn't know about DCHelios518 wrote: Which would be inconsistent considering he's seen higher levels of DC before but it's terrified about the DC of this relatively puny attack. Again Feats over statements.
I remember that Q&A but a link would be nice for reference. Also Toriyama always says random stuff in interviews to try and justify what he does. When asked about kami senin's island and if there were high and low tides (since it would cover his island), he said that the island floats, but then he said but that would mean it would change places hmmm. So basically he just doesn't care about things makign sense, lol.Toriyama gave out the distance between Earth and the Moon for DB (it's the same distance between the RL versions) in one of his volume Q & As. I'm in mobile rn, so I'll give it later unless you want to search for it.
That never happened on panel in the manga so originally it didn't contradict anything. And having 10x gravtiy doesn't mean much since King Kai's planet has 10x gravity and is far easier to destroy than Earth. And in real life a planet can have less mass than Earth but more gravity, it just would need a much smaller radius. For example if a planet the size of Pluto was dense enough that it has the same mass as Earth it would actually have much more relative gravity on the surface even though they have the same mass because you are closer to the center of the planet. Changing the radius of the planet actually changes gravity 2x more than changing mass. So a planet with double the mass of Earth and double the radius of Earth would be bigger and wider than Earth but actually have 2x less relative gravity.That moment contradicts the time he destroyed Planet Vegeta. 1st form Freeza casually destroy a planet with 10x gravity but 4th form failed at destroying a planet with similar mass to Earth.
I would assume they are planets the size of Jupiter or bigger, which absolutely dwarf rocky planets.Those planets must have a lot of massconsidering what 1st form Freeza did and how much stronger 4th form is.
[spoiler][/spoiler]I don't recall thisAnd Vegeta even said if Goku dodges the blast he could save himself
But he could (and did) of humiliated him in great ape form. It would of been even easier for him if he went right to that form since he wouldn't of used so much power on the galic gun and get damaged.Considering how enraged Vegeta is, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't care if he dies at that point as long as he humiliates Goku.
Ep 98 right at the beginningMultiple things have me questioning it like in the ToP arc when Zeno destroys U9 Goku and Vegeta talk about it like it's impressive
I don't recall this either.
And did the writers want her to underestimate herself that much?It wouldn't have been any different if she said Planet or universe because I doubt Kale/Caulifa blew up a celestial object much less a universe. So at that point, Kafla was guessing her DC.
That is much more likely than being able to one shot it. I think it could be the same for Cell. He has enough energy to destroy everything in the solar system, but I'm not sure if he could do it in one blast due to the solar system being mostly empty space. But he could destroy the sun and if his beams split apart they could hit and destroy every planet as well, similar to how starkiller base is multi planetary level. It doesn't destroy the planets in one blast since there is so much space inbetween them, but instead splits into different blasts and destroys them all that way.So SSJG has universe attack potency.
Ya I already said it would be fast enough to where it was during the fight.No, but it implies he would do it in a very short time just like the god fight.
How the heck does attack potency change how bright an attack is? And it wasn't even that bright on Earth, if it was so bright the kais could see it everyone on earth would be completely blind.Is it too early to remind you about attack potency?
We are both guessing here. Are you really saying you can say how big the dragon ball universe is for a fact? If not then you are guessing. We don't even know how big our own universe is, lmao.So you're just guessing at this point? Alright.
It happened, but since it was just statements it can be retconned. The fight destroyed a few stars and a bunch of planets, so feat wise their fight seemed to be multi solar system, but that was by accident so of course SSG would be far above that.It would still be in the DBS Anime continuity unless you're implying that because it's a different writer then it's in its own continuity which is asinine.
But that line means that they probably thought SSG was more than 10% Beerus, and if Toriyama told them Beerus was universe level then they would of thought that Goku who was at least 10% Beerus, but more like at least 20-50% if Vegeta was 10% would be enough to threaten the universe if clashing with someone who is universe level. However Beerus' power was retconned to being much stronger than SSG Goku and we never see Goku or anyone else his level threaten the universe again. We only see it again with Beerus and Champa.That's just evidence that the 10% line got retconed and not the universal feat.
Nothing wrong with that since there is no solid proof of anything.Again, more guessing.
Zeno has been the one erasing universes in the ToP as well. Why not of the angels or the daishinkan do it for him? Why would Champa be amazed when he erases a universe? My guess is that while I do think the GoD and angels are universe level, they can only destroy what's in the universe, they don't have the power to erase the entire thing like Zeno.Because everyone escaped the time-line to be safe. If Zeno decided to do the same to the main time-line then the series would effectively end.
But when it came to Frieza, Black, and fused Zamasu I don't think anyone ever said there was a danger of them destroying the entire universe. Though when Zamasu fused with the universe I would say he was probably universal at that point. And maybe fused Zamasu in general was since SSB Vegito was supposedly around Beerus level according to the manga, and in the anime fused Zamasu was actually able to put up a fight.Attack potency again.
I concede.dragon boss z wrote:Krillin specifically mentioned the damage it did to the planet. Not one fat before that did so much damage to the ground below it. Even the large attack nappa did the ground was still completely flat under his feat. The only deep crater someone created was actually from Nappa again, but it was much smaller than Recoome's attack and Piccolo was still amazed by how deep the crater was, again, implying that level of power is impressive. And this is the same Piccolo that moon busted but much stronger, so you can't say he doesn't know about DC
Except the Bardock special got canonized when Freeza mentioned/thought about Bardock and this was when Freeza was fighting Goku, so that special was part of the main continuity and in Toriyama's mind at the time of Freeza holding back too much.That never happened on panel in the manga so originally it didn't contradict anything.
And having 10x gravtiy doesn't mean much since King Kai's planet has 10x gravity and is far easier to destroy than Earth.
My guy, density correlates with mass actually density is the amount of mass in an area/volume. That why neutron stars have a great amount of gravity, because despite them being only 12.5 miles in diameter, they're have around 1.5x the mass of our Sun.And in real life a planet can have less mass than Earth but more gravity, it just would need a much smaller radius. For example if a planet the size of Pluto was dense enough that it has the same mass as Earth it would actually have much more relative gravity on the surface even though they have the same mass because you are closer to the center of the planet. Changing the radius of the planet actually changes gravity 2x more than changing mass. So a planet with double the mass of Earth and double the radius of Earth would be bigger and wider than Earth but actually have 2x less relative gravity.
That's incredibly odd because even Vegeta just meant to wipe the crust, he would effectively destroy the atmosphere which would kill Goku.[spoiler][/spoiler]
It was definitely more of an "at the moment" thing because he didn't bother to "destroy" the planet later.But he could (and did) of humiliated him in great ape form. It would of been even easier for him if he went right to that form since he wouldn't of used so much power on the galic gun and get damaged.
I'm definitely leaning towards it being because the Zenos did it so casually and how willing they were to do it.Vegeta: They really erased it?
Goku: Yeah, this is the second time we've seen a universe erased.
Vegeta: Yeah you are right (sounding somewhat scared)
Doesn't confirm they aren't universe level, but it just kind of sound weird if they themselves are above universe, or at the very least it makes what Zeno did seam less threatening.
Oh and Champa even said "amazing Zeno is a god among gods" right after this happened implying what he did was amazing.
You definitely missed my point.And did the writers want her to underestimate herself that much?
The Sun makes a huge part of the Solar System's mass actually it makes 99.8% of it. So if Cell does the "cheap" route like you mention and destroys the Sun, he's still a hairbreadth from being Solar System.That is much more likely than being able to one shot it. I think it could be the same for Cell. He has enough energy to destroy everything in the solar system, but I'm not sure if he could do it in one blast due to the solar system being mostly empty space. But he could destroy the sun and if his beams split apart they could hit and destroy every planet as well, similar to how starkiller base is multi planetary level. It doesn't destroy the planets in one blast since there is so much space inbetween them, but instead splits into different blasts and destroys them all that way.
Okay, so SSJG has high multi-galaxy physicals, which is still much more than what GT characters were said to do.Ya I already said it would be fast enough to where it was during the fight.
Wow, this isn't the first time a fictional series or Dragon Ball ignores logic.How the heck does attack potency change how bright an attack is? And it wasn't even that bright on Earth, if it was so bright the kais could see it everyone on earth would be completely blind.
That's why the safest assumption is to say the universe is the size of our universe, same logic goes for planets/stars/galaxies and saying they're the size of the average planets/stars/physicals. Otherwise I could just say that every other fictional universe that doesn't compare itself to RL, is the size of an atom and DB's universe is the size of an infinite multiverse and say that Goku stomps characters like STTGL, Elder God Demon Bane, ZeedMillenniummon, etc because of that.We are both guessing here. Are you really saying you can say how big the dragon ball universe is for a fact? If not then you are guessing. We don't even know how big our own universe is, lmao.
I have no doubt it can, in fact I'm surprised, that Toei didn't accidentally retconned it already.It happened, but since it was just statements it can be retconned. The fight destroyed a few stars and a bunch of planets, so feat wise their fight seemed to be multi solar system, but that was by accident so of course SSG would be far above that.
I understand your point completely and if that what was they were thinking, then they should've gave evidence in the anime that he's not universal anymore instead they just made it that Beerus doesn't even have to use a percent to cause mass destruction of the universe.But that line means that they probably thought SSG was more than 10% Beerus, and if Toriyama told them Beerus was universe level then they would of thought that Goku who was at least 10% Beerus, but more like at least 20-50% if Vegeta was 10% would be enough to threaten the universe if clashing with someone who is universe level.
Zeno has been the one erasing universes in the ToP as well.
Why not of the angels or the daishinkan do it for him? Why would Champa be amazed when he erases a universe?
I second this.My guess is that while I do think the GoD and angels are universe level, they can only destroy what's in the universe, they don't have the power to erase the entire thing like Zeno.
This could be explained by the fact that those three baddies have no reason to destroy the universe actually it would go against their goals (ruling the universe/s).But when it came to Frieza, Black, and fused Zamasu I don't think anyone ever said there was a danger of them destroying the entire universe. Though when Zamasu fused with the universe I would say he was probably universal at that point. And maybe fused Zamasu in general was since SSB Vegito was supposedly around Beerus level according to the manga, and in the anime fused Zamasu was actually able to put up a fight.
True, Toriyama accepted the idea of Bardock, but he essentially retconned the father of Bardock with dragon ball minus. At least in the manga continuity.Helios518 wrote: Except the Bardock special got canonized when Freeza mentioned/thought about Bardock and this was when Freeza was fighting Goku, so that special was part of the main continuity and in Toriyama's mind at the time of Freeza holding back too much.
Is the real really that magical? I meant any mortal can instant transmtion there and back. Also Beerus' planet seems to be in the actual universe and it has a strong gravity for its size.You're comparing a planet that exists in the magical realm which is the the afterlife and another planet that exists in the mortal universe. There's no correlation.
Yes I know, I was just pointing out how that making a planet have a smaller radius without changing its mas actually increases the gravity on the surface. I don't know how the calc on how much energy it would take to destroy but I doubt Toriyama does either or cares. It really doesn't seem planet size has much do to do with garvity in the dragon ball universe. Besides planet Vegeta every planet they have been to has had a gravity that seems close to Earth, and the only other planet we know with 10x gravity is tiny.My guy, density correlates with mass actually density is the amount of mass in an area/volume. That why neutron stars have a great amount of gravity, because despite them being only 12.5 miles in diameter, they're have around 1.5x the mass of our Sun.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... ron-stars/
And gravity plays a huge effect on destroying celestial objects/systems. In fact, it's harder to destroy the Earth's crust entirely than the Moon due to the former's higher gravity enacted upon it.
Toriyama isn't a very scientific guy. Tbh as long as the planet isn't completely destroyed he would probably make it so the characters could survive. Also I could argue saiyans can survive in harsher conditions as humans since he can survive in the stratosphere while fighting Beerus while a regular human could not. So as long as Goku is not in the vaccuum of space you could argue he would survive.That's incredibly odd because even Vegeta just meant to wipe the crust, he would effectively destroy the atmosphere which would kill Goku.
I agree. I'm just saying there is enough evidence to imply he couldn't of destroyed the "entire planet". I would still say he is a planetary threat.It was definitely more of an "at the moment" thing because he didn't bother to "destroy" the planet later.
What was it then? Not that it matters the exact point since Kefla not realizing her base form was above universe level and miscalcing her power by multiplier factors of 10 just seems kind of ridiculous and would be bad writing. And even then she only said she "felt" like she could destroy the universe in one shot.You definitely missed my point.
Yes I know. I also agree Cell could destroy all of the solar system in one shot, but if it's in one place. The problem is there is so much empty space you could effectively fit thousands of suns in it. Which would make Cell like a thousand time star buster which clearly isn't the case. Cell has the power to destroy all the mass of the solar system with his energy, I just don't know about the empty space.The Sun makes a huge part of the Solar System's mass actually it makes 99.8% of it. So if Cell does the "cheap" route like you mention and destroys the Sun, he's still a hairbreadth from being Solar System.
I don't think the power of GT characters were ever specified. However base Goku is Buu tier and base Super Goku doesn't seem that far ahead of Buu tier, so I feel there forms are comparable, with Super Goku being a bit stronger in each form and having a few extra ones.Okay, so SSJG has high multi-galaxy physicals, which is still much more than what GT characters were said to do.
Well that's true, lol.Wow, this isn't the first time a fictional series or Dragon Ball ignores logic.
The thing is we know the dragon ball universe is different than ours. And some people argue it is multiple times bigger since there is the realm of the kais and the deamon realm. We also know there are 12 universe that have twins in their universe which clearly isn't the case here. Also they have kais and gardians as we don't. So on a universal order and scale, we know for a fact there are differences.That's why the safest assumption is to say the universe is the size of our universe, same logic goes for planets/stars/galaxies and saying they're the size of the average planets/stars/physicals. Otherwise I could just say that every other fictional universe that doesn't compare itself to RL, is the size of an atom and DB's universe is the size of an infinite multiverse and say that Goku stomps characters like STTGL, Elder God Demon Bane, ZeedMillenniummon, etc because of that.
Probably because they would rather people forget about it than bring up past mistakes.I have no doubt it can, in fact I'm surprised, that Toei didn't accidentally retconned it already.
Same thing as aboveI understand your point completely and if that what was they were thinking, then they should've gave evidence in the anime that he's not universal anymore instead they just made it that Beerus doesn't even have to use a percent to cause mass destruction of the universe.
I know. What I'm saying there are other expendable universes that people other than Zeno could destroy. I mean I've seen people say Frost is universal because he is above a base Goku that they think is stronger than BoG SSG Goku. I've seen someone say current base Goku is multi hundred universal level, lol.I clearly meant if U7 or the main multiverse was destroyed.
Ya I don't think they would want to do it for the most part, more like I'm wondering why nobody brought up the possible threat of the universe being destroyed. Like in the namek saga how it was mentioned multiple times the threat of Frieza planet busting, and Frieza even bragged about it. You would think he would brag about the power to destroy the universe, though I guess you could say he didn't even know he could.This could be explained by the fact that those three baddies have no reason to destroy the universe actually it would go against their goals (ruling the universe/s).
Yeah, he retconned it about 20 years later.dragon boss z wrote:True, Toriyama accepted the idea of Bardock, but he essentially retconned the father of Bardock with dragon ball minus. At least in the manga continuity.
Yeah, considering everybody that dies in the universe, there spirit goes there.Is the real really that magical? I meant any mortal can instant transmtion there and back.
Source on this, please.Also Beerus' planet seems to be in the actual universe and it has a strong gravity for its size.
I'm Toriyama stated that the Kaioshins made stars which in turn blew up and created everything else later. This was in the interview where Toriyama revealed Boo's origins but I'm having trouble finding that.Also don't forget in dragon ball planets are created by the Kais, so they were created with magic, same as King Kais planet.
Nah, if the atmosphere is vaporizes so is it's oxygen, so logically Saiyans would still die regardless but I'm pretty sure you're right about that not being taken into account.Toriyama isn't a very scientific guy. Tbh as long as the planet isn't completely destroyed he would probably make it so the characters could survive. Also I could argue saiyans can survive in harsher conditions as humans since he can survive in the stratosphere while fighting Beerus while a regular human could not. So as long as Goku is not in the vaccuum of space you could argue he would survive.
If Kafla said "I know I can destroy a universe" it still wouldn't stop the fact, that there's no way she could know that she can or not because she hasn't tried it or is some super-genius.What was it then? Not that it matters the exact point since Kefla not realizing her base form was above universe level and miscalcing her power by multiplier factors of 10 just seems kind of ridiculous and would be bad writing. And even then she only said she "felt" like she could destroy the universe in one shot.
That's not Solar System busting works. Imagine Goku wanted to destroy a wall, alright. He destroys the wall and Kamehameha goes threw it and the keeps flying until it's dissipated but if you add another wall behind wall A then the Kamehameha will slow down or stop. This is the case with solar system busting (or any type of busting), Cell likely has the power to destroy the Sun but I doubt what would be left of the Kamehameha could destroy another Sun let alone thousands of Suns.Yes I know. I also agree Cell could destroy all of the solar system in one shot, but if it's in one place. The problem is there is so much empty space you could effectively fit thousands of suns in it. Which would make Cell like a thousand time star buster which clearly isn't the case. Cell has the power to destroy all the mass of the solar system with his energy, I just don't know about the empty space.
They weren't besides power scaling, that why you can't assume that their power is anything above Solar System level (the last destruction power scale thing). Sure, they could be casual Solar System level because GT Base Goku's power rivals Boo and he can go much stronger than that but they were never stated or have done anything higher than that level.I don't think the power of GT characters were ever specified.
You could say the same about DC and Marvel. Their cosmology is much different than ours due to all the gods, demons, and realms.The thing is we know the dragon ball universe is different than ours. And some people argue it is multiple times bigger since there is the realm of the kais and the deamon realm. We also know there are 12 universe that have twins in their universe which clearly isn't the case here. Also they have kais and gardians as we don't. So on a universal order and scale, we know for a fact there are differences.
Kind of hard to forget, if you're remotely into VS debates and the fact that it was a big plot-point in that arc.Probably because they would rather people forget about it than bring up past mistakes.
That is really asinine because I've seen people like SethTheProgrammer still state that Current Base Goku is universal and he still gets the same SSJG multiplier as he did in BoG, effectively SSJG^2 or something.I know. What I'm saying there are other expendable universes that people other than Zeno could destroy. I mean I've seen people say Frost is universal because he is above a base Goku that they think is stronger than BoG SSG Goku. I've seen someone say current base Goku is multi hundred universal level, lol.
A retcon is still a retcon. And Frieza charged up his special planet destroying attack to destroy planet Vegeta anywyas. It was easy for him but it's not like he just shot out a casual ki blast like kid Buu was about to do to Earth.Helios518 wrote: Yeah, he retconned it about 20 years later.
It's just another place on another plane of existence. And Whis can somehow fly there, lol.Yeah, considering everybody that dies in the universe, there spirit goes there.
On what exactly? That Beerus' planet is in the universe? In the beginning of the BoG movie it spans to his planet showing it is in the cosmos.Source on this, please.
It was also more recently stated that King Kai made his own planet.I'm Toriyama stated that the Kaioshins made stars which in turn blew up and created everything else later. This was in the interview where Toriyama revealed Boo's origins but I'm having trouble finding that.
Toriyama says a lot of things in interviews. That scene itself was more of a gag than anything. I would argue Roshi's moon bust was also gag like. Destroying the moon shouldn't even of made Goku lose his form since that is like saying he has to be constantly looking at the full moon to stay in the form, which isn't the case. Piccolo destroying the moon didn't seem like a gag, but since Roshi already did it Toriyama probably felt like it was ok to do it again. Basically getting to the moon and destroying it seems rather easy in the dragon ball universe. Toriyama tends to like to involve the moon as well.Also here's that link for the distance between the Moon and Earth: https://i.imgur.com/oHHAjUN.jpg
I agree with you here, but technically Frieza only said saiyans can't survive in a vacuum. Nothing else was stated about what they needed to survive as far as I know.Nah, if the atmosphere is vaporizes so is it's oxygen, so logically Saiyans would still die regardless but I'm pretty sure you're right about that not being taken into account.
I agree, but like I said, it would just be a weird line if she was hundreds of times universal. Tbh the line could easily be taken as "I feel like I can eat a horse".If Kafla said "I know I can destroy a universe" it still wouldn't stop the fact, that there's no way she could know that she can or not because she hasn't tried it or is some super-genius.
Ok I agree with you here. So we agree since Cell is stated solar system level he has the power to destroy the sun plus a little extra?That's not Solar System busting works. Imagine Goku wanted to destroy a wall, alright. He destroys the wall and Kamehameha goes threw it and the keeps flying until it's dissipated but if you add another wall behind wall A then the Kamehameha will slow down or stop. This is the case with solar system busting (or any type of busting), Cell likely has the power to destroy the Sun but I doubt what would be left of the Kamehameha could destroy another Sun let alone thousands of Suns.
I agree but just because there was the universal statement doesn't automatically mean Super is just better. I agree at first I thought this was the case, but I also thought god level would be untouchable for pretty much everyone. But now we have any person who trains a bit putting up a fight against SSG. I really doubt 17 is stronger than Super 17 from GT, and I doubt most people in the ToP are stronger than Omega Shenron.They weren't besides power scaling, that why you can't assume that their power is anything above Solar System level (the last destruction power scale thing). Sure, they could be casual Solar System level because GT Base Goku's power rivals Boo and he can go much stronger than that but they were never stated or have done anything higher than that level.
I don't know much about DC or Marvel. I just watched the movies.You could say the same about DC and Marvel. Their cosmology is much different than ours due to all the gods, demons, and realms.
They aren't thinking about people like us, most fans are casual and the show is technically targeted to kids. They know and have pretty much gotten away with everything when it comes to power inconsistencies.Kind of hard to forget, if you're remotely into VS debates and the fact that it was a big plot-point in that arc.
Ya he is one of the biggest wankers on youtube spreading missinformation in pretty much every video. On his video talking about how fast DBZ characters he used that magazine that said Goku crossed Namek in a second even though Goku clearly said they were close by in both the manga and anime. And Parunga was vissable from both his starting and ending destination meaning he only traveled around 10 miles. He even had the scan of where Goku said they were close by in his video but cut out the part where he says it.That is really asinine because I've seen people like SethTheProgrammer still state that Current Base Goku is universal and he still gets the same SSJG multiplier as he did in BoG, effectively SSJG^2 or something.