GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
#20 not being aware of Namek holds little to no water here.
Except once he said that everyone knew they were screwed, and they were. The other models are irrelevant in this case. We knew 19 and 20 were screwed after they said that, and they were.
He made his Androids the strongest he could, considering his former models (#16, #17 and #18) could humiliate Pre Rosat SSJs, who were gods to Freeza.
Um where are you getting this? Frieza before his stamina drain could still very well fight back against pre rosat ssjs.
Well, if Piccolo stomped a foe who could stomp Trunks, then he sure can stomp Trunks and probably Yardrat Goku. #20 implied he and #19 could lose energy during fights:
Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.6
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”
And Piccolo cut his arm of by the end of the fight. Considering the beatdown he was taking, he should've been pretty weakened when Piccolo choped his arm off.
Maybe. But this still would beam Piccolo could completely stomp namek ssj Goku which is never implied.
So if Freeza punched Vegeta on the face he would make him bleed and push him back by a few feets? Because that's what #19 did.
Yes? And he could do far more than that if Vegeta just stood there and didn't defend himself.
the statement from Vegeta you posted is a Vizism. According to Herms, that's what Vegeta said:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”
Vegeta says that they are not as fearsome as Trunks said, so #19 post cannot stomp Trunks like they expected. However, Vegeta doesn't deny his fearsomeness and neither regards him as a total joke. #19 should be around Trunks' level.
That doesn't imply 19 being around Trunks level at all. 20 is stronger than 19 and 20 is much weaker than Piccolo who is weaker than Trunks after just a couple months of training and wasn't even stated to be noticeably stronger.
I've already showed plenty of feats and statements that place the Androids well above Freeza, but you keep overlooking them.
No, you've only shown statements that can be interpreted in different ways. The feats you showed have to take your opinion on strength as truth. For example you think 19 knocking back Vegeta a few feat is a good feat that puts him above Frieza, while I think it isn't a good feat that puts him below Frieza if anything.
#19 survived multiple blows and even dodged a punch from Sick Goku, who's in all likelihood above Yardrat Goku based on Tenshinhan's coments,
All Tien said was "so this is what a ssj feels like up close". He just had no idea how a ssj felt or fought. Sick ssj Goku would most likely lose to both his namek self and Frieza. He just wouldn't last long enough to win.
#19 post was implied to be on Trunks' level by a Vegeta who failed to tank #19 punch,
All that's implied is they are weaker than what they were told. Nothing implies they were Trunks level.
#20's speed is impressive to Vegeta and Piccolo thinks #20 is on the level of the expected Androids.
He was just faster than Vegeta thought he would be, and Piccolo flat out stated he didn't know if they got too strong or if the androids were weaker than they were told.
It's not because you can't see Piccolo stomping Yardrat Goku that is a unlikely option.
Yes, it is an opinion, but it is a likely opinion, not an unlikely one. If Piccolo was stronger than Frieza or any ssj at all, it almost definitely would of been stated.
Piccolo powered up a lot at Kaio's and even though it sounds impossible, it still happened.
We don't know how strong he got, he never once fought or had a power level reading.
Gohan went from weaker than Android Arc SSJs to above CG Goku in a year and even though it sounds unlikely, it still happened. Gotenks surpassed his SSJ self training on the Rosat for a week and even though it sounds impossible, it still happened.
This was more based off of Gohan's hidden power.
So from a debating standpoint this debate is all about Feats and statements vs Freeza wanking, with feats and statements holding much more water here.
Wow your judgement seems to be really clouded. I already said based off evidence and statements any of these characters could be stronger than the others. What I'm saying is almost impossible and a completely head canon statement is that 19 or 20 could one shot Frieza. There is absolutely no evidence for this. It's like saying Tien could of oneshot Frieza. Technically nothing 100 disproves it, but most people don't believe it because it is completely unwarranted.
You seem to just want the characters to be a lot stronger than Frieza even though the manga itself completely contradicts this on multiple occasions.
Why would Goku be excited and afraid of enemies stronger than Frieza if he is already a "god" compared to Frieza? The only reason I can think of is he isn't as strong as you say. I mean based off what you are saying Krillin might as well asked if Goku was excited or afraid of fighting people stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta.... It makes no sense unless the person's power is still relevant.
Why would Vegeta be shocked of Piccolo surprassing him as a ssj if he was already close to or on ssj level? Sounds like Vegeta thought namekians couldn't surpass ssj, yet you are saying he could already casually one shot some ssj.
[spoiler][imghttps://images1-focus-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?container=focus&gadget=a&no_expand=1&resize_h=0&rewriteMime=image%2F*&url=http%3a%2f%2f2.bp.blogspot.com%2f-6oQ-iX5NM9I%2fVkbap6Xlt2I%2fAAAAAAAEFes%2fDbk1c6kzdoI%2fs16000%2f0364-011.png&imgmax=30000][/img][/spoiler]
And the fact you say it's Frieza wanking to say Frieza doesn't get one shot by 19 or 20 is downright crazy, especially since neither 19 or 20 have definitive proof they could even beat 50% Frieza.
Also you say I'm wanking when you use and abuse statements from the manga that Toriyama didn't even want them to be taken that way. Toriyama almost definitely didn't intend for piccolo to be even above namek ssj Goku. It just doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint. We get a statement saying he is strong for not being a ssj, and we should take it how it is meant, he is getting close to ssj level, but still not there yet. And when he finally did surpass ssj level it was outright stated.
King Kai (Potential Unlocked By Grand Elder Guru) vs. Majin Pui Pui.[/spoiler]
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