The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:32 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Gohan probably told him he could power up, but he had no way of knowing exactly to what extent. Trunks just knew he would win because he wasn't a pushover. When it comes to fighting Frieza is at a big disadvantage for not being able to sense ki, which was probably one of the major reasons Trunks got the drop on him. Also if Trunks was so confident in taking them both at once power wise, why did he decide to set Frieza up for a surprise attack? Why not just casually walk up to him like he did to King Cold? Imo it was because Trunks knew he couldn't take them both together likely, but Cold by himslef wasn't much.
It just happened Freeza was cocky and left himself wide open by understimating Trunks. Why he would waste his time tooling Freeza until he decides to power up? It's way easier for Trunks to just take the shot and kill him.

They didn't seem amped to me, and Frieza thought they should all be able to hurt Goku.
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Good catch, you're right.
I don't really think Frieza got much stronger and it was stated that ssj Vegeta was above Trunks, I don't think it was really that close since Vegeta actually put up a fight against 18 before getting tired and Trunks did practically nothing.
I don't think Vegeta's perfomance places him much above Trunks for a lot of factors. #18 was still playing with Vegeta, Trunks was caught with his guard open, and the fact that Vegeta is a little stronger than Trunks can be significant on the Trunks/18 gap, like how Zarbon being a bit above that Dodoria made a lot of difference on his fight against Vegeta.
I mean Tien that entire fight just sounded like he had no idea what he was talking about. He just seemed like he was there to be a hype man.
Yeah, he sounded like Goku's cheerleader, lol. The scene doesn't make any sense if Goku is weaker than he was three year ago, though.
Yes, I'm aware they use Frieza as a measuring stick, that's why if Piccolo was truly stronger than Frieza I think something like that would of been mentioned, but it wasn't. We have direct statements for everyone stronger than Frieza though. Trunks was mentioned to be stronger than Frieza multiple times even though we obviously knew that since he killed him, Vegeta was stated to be stronger than Trunks, the androids were stated to be stronger than Frieza, and even Cell was mentioned stronger than Frieza. Literally every single character stronger than Frieza was mentioned to be stronger than Frieza, except Piccolo, 19, and 20. 19 and 20 don't have power levels so I could understand them, but you would think someone would of mentioned if Piccoo was above Frieza or above ssj Trunks from before.
I don't think the fact he was never directly stated to be stronger than Freeza means much. Kuririn was never directly stated to be stronger than Tenshinhan, after all. Everyone being shocked by Piccolo's power, including Vegeta, when he's fighting #20 heavily implies he's a beast on the Android Arc for me.
I agree the mark was weird, but it happened. And Goku's attack didn't seem quite as strong as Vegeta's and 20 is stronger than 19 so that could explain it not happening to 20.
Piccolo left a mark on Nappa:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

And Vegeta left a mark on Freeza:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

They weren't as flashy and 19's mark, but my point still. Marks don't mean much on off guard attacks IMO.
They knew it was well above their own. But none of them seemed to actually mention the level of power or how crazy it was. It all happened pretty fast and it's not like they have scouters to measure it. All they probably knew was it was above them by a lot.
I don't think the fact it all happened pretty fast difficults their sensing. Everybody could gauge 50% Goku's power afterall, and he showed his power on a few seconds.
What's your definition of considerably stronger? Imo if Frieza was at 100% the difference between him and Trunks wouldn't of been much different than him and Goku on Namek. The difference is Trunks is a more ruthless fighter with a weapon. I mean imagine if ssj Goku had a sword and was bloodlusted on Namek. Pretty sure he would of cut him apart.
Except the sequence with Cold heavily implies it wasn't Trunks' sword that made him accomplish the kill, but his own power. Also, Goku was bloodlusted on Freeza. He expressed many times he was furious and said he was going to kill him multiple times, even more when he killed Kuririn. Him letting Freeza alive seemed like it was a change on his heart.
Maybe. Story wise I just don't think that is the case. I can't see Piccolo being stronger than the Goku that landed on Namek that beat the Ginyu force. Everytime characters do an old training Goku did they get stronger than when Goku did that training, but Goku has already done a knew training that makes him much stronger. So Piccolo was stronger than Goku post king Kai training, so over a power level of 8,000. but weaker than Goku's knew training which gave him a power level of 90,000.
No matter how you look at it, Piccolo gaining any power in a week his just crazy. I don't see why one could disregard Nail's statements when they were never contradicted.
Hmm that's not what the scan I'm looking at says, but I'll take your word that this is the correct translation. And the reason behind that would be because Cell is the only one with a power level they can sense, so this time they are actually feeling a ki bigger than Frieza.
Yeah, you can trust me on those translations. They are from Herms, a member well known by here and other forums for his accurate translations on the manga.
Pre rosat the only saiyan I think that got a lot stronger was Vegeta. Trunks only had a few months to get stronger and Goku was far beyond Vegeta but Vegeta caught up. Then post ROSAT saiyans are completely out of Frieza's league. Pre Rosat saiyans were also out of his league, but he was still strong enough to fight back. Against post rosat he wouldn't even be able to budge them.
Yeah, Vegeta's gains were the biggest. I think having weaker partners kind of slowed down his training.
I don't think Trunks having less time retarded his gains, though. After Gohan's death, Trunks as a SSJ was able to go from below Base Gohan to slightly above SSJ Gohan training three years alone. That's a huge increase, if you ask me.
Ya but the characters acted like that meant it was impressive that he and Vegeta who was stronger than him lost. Nobody thought it was crazy that Piccolo lost. They were like "if even the guy who can beat Frieza can't win, how can we?" but that doesn't make sense if Piccolo was also stronger than Frieza and even the Trunks that beat Frieza. If Piccolo was stronger than Frieza at that point it would of made more sense to mention if Trunks and Piccolo, who are both stronger than Frieza can't win, how can we.
Of course nobody thought it was crazy Piccolo lost. I mean, the three Saiyans are quite a deal above him. I think Vegeta could have tooled Piccolo the same way #18 him. Perhaps even Trunks wouldn't have a lot of trouble against Piccolo.
I think that is more of Trunks was trying to hype up the androids to let them know how much of a threat they were. When he came back the second time he didn't have to scare them into training. But I agree Frieza has no chance at all against ssj Vegeta, but I don't think Frieza could just grab and rip the arms off of Frieza like he did to 20 either, but that might be because Frieza is held together a little better. I think against ssj Vegeta it would go like Vegeta vs Dadoria or Vegeta vs first form Zarbon.
I don't see why Trunks would lie to them tbh. Seems a bit confusing for Mr Toriyama to put the statement there but expect the reader to think Trunks was a lier, mainly because Trunks never said he was bluffing then.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:37 pm

All from ToP:

Piccolo vs SS3 Gotenks (No time limit)
18 vs Super Perfect Cell
Kuririn vs King Cold
Roshi vs Kibito
Tenshinhan vs Goten (No Super Saiyan)

All fights to the death.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:08 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Piccolo vs SS3 Gotenks (No time limit)
18 vs Super Perfect Cell
Kuririn vs King Cold
Roshi vs Kibito
Tenshinhan vs Goten (No Super Saiyan)
- Even though Piccolo knows a bunch of Gotenks techniques I'm not sure how could survive a death match against him without time limit, so Gotenks wins.
- Cell was on his peak at his 'Super' Perfect Form, he's way more experienced than 18 in combat and has the genes of the best fighters at time, he wrecks her.
- I don't see much King Cold as a guy who gone through a lot of battles, he seems like a brute governant, so I believe Krillin can use his tactics to defeat him even being weaker.
- Interesting match, Roshi sure improved, but the only way I see him defeating an opponent that is comparable to Boo arc Base Gohan is using the Mafuba, if doesn't works, Kibito wins.
- Goten though pretty strong still just a kid that barely trained or had gone through many battles like Tenshinhan, so I gonna guess the only way Goten could win is overwhelming his opponent becoming 50x stronger than his normal state, if he's not allowed to do it, then Tenshinhan would win.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:14 pm

ZombieVito wrote:All from ToP:

Piccolo vs SS3 Gotenks (No time limit)
18 vs Super Perfect Cell
Kuririn vs King Cold
Roshi vs Kibito
Tenshinhan vs Goten (No Super Saiyan)

All fights to the death.
Piccolo has been stronger than Gotenks for a while for now. He finger clicks him.

I don't know about the other matches, though. I think the earthlings can win all rounds with their skills, considering they were choosen over the boys. Perhaps Goten would beat Tenshinhan because of how much of a jabroni he is and Goten is the strongest between him Cold and Kibito while Tenshinhan is pretty much the weakest between him Roshi and Kuririn, but i dunno.


I have no clue about 18 vs SPC tbh.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Li'l Lemmy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:01 am

Are you insane? There's no way in hell Piccolo is stronger than Gotenks. o_o;

i mean, maybe BASE Gotenks. But he doesn't even touch him otherwise.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:51 am

Piccolo was able to keep up with Frost pretty well. Although he was weakened, this same Frost required Vegeta to go SSJ in order to one shot him. This same Vegeta later one shoted SSJ3 Gotenks in base.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:56 pm

ZombieVito wrote:All from ToP:

Piccolo vs SS3 Gotenks (No time limit)
18 vs Super Perfect Cell
Kuririn vs King Cold
Roshi vs Kibito
Tenshinhan vs Goten (No Super Saiyan)

All fights to the death.
Gotenks wins, Piccolo was shown to be ssj2 Gohan level.

Super Perfect Cell probably wins, or at least I would like to think he does.

King Cold is stronger imo, but Krillin may be able to up off a win with skill. Also it depends on if King Cold can transform, since the King Cold we saw was only suppressed mecha Frieza level.

I'm leaning Kibito beating Roshi since in the Super manga he fought Zamasu for a bit and I think I heard someone said he was stated to be base Gohan level in the Buu saga.

The way the have treated Goten and Trunks in super has been pretty bad, same with Tien so idk. I guess Tien since he is a better fighter.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: It just happened Freeza was cocky and left himself wide open by understimating Trunks. Why he would waste his time tooling Freeza until he decides to power up? It's way easier for Trunks to just take the shot and kill him.
Ya but Trunks used a special move with weird hand signs and used it to set Frieza up for a sword attack where he looked extremely serious. With Cold he just casually walked up to him, gave him his sword, and shot a normal ki blast through him. To me it seemed like Trunks clearly considered Frieza the main threat.
I don't think Vegeta's perfomance places him much above Trunks for a lot of factors. #18 was still playing with Vegeta, Trunks was caught with his guard open, and the fact that Vegeta is a little stronger than Trunks can be significant on the Trunks/18 gap, like how Zarbon being a bit above that Dodoria made a lot of difference on his fight against Vegeta.
Well Trunks seemed pretty surprised at Vegeta's performance so Vegeta had to be at least noticeably above Trunks.
Yeah, he sounded like Goku's cheerleader, lol. The scene doesn't make any sense if Goku is weaker than he was three year ago, though.
Maybe, I just don't see it as solid evidence. It was just to show us ssj was still far beyond Tien and meant to create hype.
I don't think the fact he was never directly stated to be stronger than Freeza means much. Kuririn was never directly stated to be stronger than Tenshinhan, after all. Everyone being shocked by Piccolo's power, including Vegeta, when he's fighting #20 heavily implies he's a beast on the Android Arc for me.
I mean Krillin being stronger than Tien adds nothing to the story and since there power is always changing one can become stronger than the other. With Frieza he was the last big villain with an unchanging power (until RoF) and if someone is stronger than him it could hype up the readers.
Piccolo left a mark on Nappa:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Ya but Piccolo's power level according to the daizenshuu was 3,500 and Nappa 4,000. Makes sense to me.

And Vegeta left a mark on Freeza:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Come one, you know that one literally did 0 damage and if anything those are like dirt marks or tiny blemishes.
They weren't as flashy and 19's mark, but my point still. Marks don't mean much on off guard attacks IMO.
Ya but it was a straight up imprint that might not of went away without repair, and as we learn androids don't have changing power levels where they suppress themselves and amp themselves when they attack like the Z warriors. His guard wasn't up, but it's not like his power level was completely defenseless either.
I don't think the fact it all happened pretty fast difficults their sensing. Everybody could gauge 50% Goku's power afterall, and he showed his power on a few seconds.
That's different because Korin had something to directly compare it tot he time. Goku was pretty much like, this is my 50% is this enough? and Korin was like, probably not based off what I'm sensing. It's not the same as sensing someoen not trying to show off their power to someone else 3 years later.
Except the sequence with Cold heavily implies it wasn't Trunks' sword that made him accomplish the kill, but his own power. Also, Goku was bloodlusted on Freeza. He expressed many times he was furious and said he was going to kill him multiple times, even more when he killed Kuririn. Him letting Freeza alive seemed like it was a change on his heart.
The point was the weapon doesn't make the man, but it doesn't mean the weapon is useless. If it was he wouldn't even bother with it. And we know slicing attacks are effective on Frieza. If Goku had a sword do you really think Frieza could of blocked it with his hand or his head? It would go through him unless he used a ki shield or something.
No matter how you look at it, Piccolo gaining any power in a week his just crazy. I don't see why one could disregard Nail's statements when they were never contradicted.
Piccolo had the exact same time to grow in power as Goku did, so he had a few months, not one week. He had a weak on King Kai's planet, but he was probably getting stronger the whole way there as well. Or before he left for it or whatever he was doing. Goku went from 8,000 to 90,000 so maybe Piccolo went from 3,500 to 45,000? Makes sense with Nail being impressed with is power and lines up with Goku's growth without going too crazy. I also believe most people have him around there.
Of course nobody thought it was crazy Piccolo lost. I mean, the three Saiyans are quite a deal above him. I think Vegeta could have tooled Piccolo the same way #18 him. Perhaps even Trunks wouldn't have a lot of trouble against Piccolo.
Ya but the fact that two people said that it was crazy the guy who easily beat Frieza lost, but not mention Piccolo at all leads me to believe Piccolo isn't on that level. Vegeta was on that level and they mentioned it, so why not Piccolo as well? They even compare his power to a ssj, but don't say he is stronger than Frieza. I just feel at least one person would of mentioned something.
I don't see why Trunks would lie to them tbh. Seems a bit confusing for Mr Toriyama to put the statement there but expect the reader to think Trunks was a lier, mainly because Trunks never said he was bluffing then.
He didn't lie though. He just said in a 1v1 he could barely get away with his life which was true. He just didn't mention he could put up a good fight before running like he later did. So I see it more as when Trunks was saying how scary they were he was telling them the scary parts about them, but when he realized how strong the present androids were he told them how he actually could put up a fight against the future androids 1v1. So he didn't lie he just left out unnecessary information that if anything would of just made the fighters train less hard and possibly the readers not be as hyped.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:02 am

Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:06 am

ZombieVito wrote:All from ToP:

Piccolo vs SS3 Gotenks (No time limit)
18 vs Super Perfect Cell
Kuririn vs King Cold
Roshi vs Kibito
Tenshinhan vs Goten (No Super Saiyan)

All fights to the death.
I don't know how powerful is ToP arc SS3 Gotenks. I believe Piccolo is slightly around super-buu tier, and base saiyans are almost as strong as him, slightly stronger. However, base Goku/vegeta are also stronger than SS3 Gotenks. I think current SS3 Gotenks has dropped down to SS3 Goku (buu arc) levels, and Piccolo can take him in a hell of a fight, and stamina weakness of SS3

King cold pops his skull

#18 is as powerful as piccolo was, when he fused with Kami. She has no means to harm imperfect cell, let alone any higher form

Kibito so far has done nothing. He is far weaker than Dabura, and that's all we know about him. I'd say kibito teleports roshi to space for him to die.

Goten is still far, far stronger. He easily crushes Ten
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Kid buu blows up the planet

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TheUltimateNinja wrote:Tenshinhan vs Gohan at jobbing.
Gohan wins, he has naturally mastered the art of jobbing. On the other hand, Tenshinhan only loses to enemies far more powerful than himself. Only legendary Yamcha can give gohan trouble in a battle of jobbing.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Kid Trunks (Pre-RoSAT) vs Cell Games Trunks
Kid trunks was nowhere near as strong as CG trunks pre or post ROSAT. He doesn't have the skill, ferocity, and size of CG trunks either.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:39 pm

nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Ultimate Gohan stomps everyone easily. He is far above any of these buus.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Ultimate Gohan stomps everyone easily. He is far above any of these buus.
I don't think so. I believe his overconfidence and lack of battle smarts would lead to his downfall, even though much stronger than these opponents I can see this match ending with Gohan being absorbed.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:43 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Ya but Trunks used a special move with weird hand signs and used it to set Frieza up for a sword attack where he looked extremely serious. With Cold he just casually walked up to him, gave him his sword, and shot a normal ki blast through him. To me it seemed like Trunks clearly considered Frieza the main threat.
I don't see how him threating Cold like that means Freeza is a threat to Trunks. Freeza left his guard down, and he payed for it. Same with Cold understimating Trunks and thinking he only killed Freeza because of the sword.
Well Trunks seemed pretty surprised at Vegeta's performance so Vegeta had to be at least noticeably above Trunks.
The last time Trunks saw Vegeta he wasn't even a Super Saiyan, and now he's fighting on pair with one of the so feared Cyborgs. It's pretty impressive, if you ask me.
I mean Krillin being stronger than Tien adds nothing to the story and since there power is always changing one can become stronger than the other. With Frieza he was the last big villain with an unchanging power (until RoF) and if someone is stronger than him it could hype up the readers.
Yeah, it wasn't directly stated but i think the implications are just too whooping. Vegeta even seemed to show some respect for Piccolo's power when he was pummeling Gero, while Freeza was never portrayed as a big deal to Vegeta on the Android Arc.

There's also the fact that even though Vegeta was a SSJ, with his aura and all, Piccolo's fighting Ki outshined Vegeta's standing ki, and SSJs are known for having a considerable ki even without fighting, as noted by Yamcha:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”


So yeah, unless Vegeta's ki while standing is considerably lower to a point it's lower than Freeza, i doubt Piccolo is weaker than Freeza.

Ya but Piccolo's power level according to the daizenshuu was 3,500 and Nappa 4,000. Makes sense to me.
Piccolo said if Gohan got mad he'd be stronger than him, and Enraged Gohan has a stated BP of 2,800.
Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”


So no, Piccolo isn't 3,500. He's below 2,800.
Come one, you know that one literally did 0 damage and if anything those are like dirt marks or tiny blemishes.
Yeah, i just checked and it was just dust. It was gone a few pannels later.
Ya but it was a straight up imprint that might not of went away without repair, and as we learn androids don't have changing power levels where they suppress themselves and amp themselves when they attack like the Z warriors. His guard wasn't up, but it's not like his power level was completely defenseless either.
Still, there are a lot of situations were weaker fighters gave stronger ones cosmetic damage. #19 himself made Vegeta's lip bleed and almost knocked him down, Recoome was all covered in bruises after tanking Vegeta's proto Final Flash, etc, etc.
That's different because Korin had something to directly compare it tot he time. Goku was pretty much like, this is my 50% is this enough? and Korin was like, probably not based off what I'm sensing. It's not the same as sensing someoen not trying to show off their power to someone else 3 years later.
I'm talking about the Z Fighters above at Kami's Palace sensing Goku's power though.
The point was the weapon doesn't make the man, but it doesn't mean the weapon is useless. If it was he wouldn't even bother with it. And we know slicing attacks are effective on Frieza. If Goku had a sword do you really think Frieza could of blocked it with his hand or his head? It would go through him unless he used a ki shield or something.
Like you said, Freeza could use his ki to counter Goku's sword. He could just stop the sword with his bare hands too and break it, like Gohan did against Dabra:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Piccolo had the exact same time to grow in power as Goku did, so he had a few months, not one week. He had a weak on King Kai's planet, but he was probably getting stronger the whole way there as well. Or before he left for it or whatever he was doing. Goku went from 8,000 to 90,000 so maybe Piccolo went from 3,500 to 45,000? Makes sense with Nail being impressed with is power and lines up with Goku's growth without going too crazy. I also believe most people have him around there.
Or Piccolo went from ~2,500ish to slightly above 265,000 as Nail implied fusing with Kami (Which gives a boost of 2x0 would put him on equal terms or slightly stronger than Freeza. Sorry man, but i don't think there's much to discuss here. Piccolo received a Mr Toriyama handjob like Freeza with his 4 months on FnF.
Ya but the fact that two people said that it was crazy the guy who easily beat Frieza lost, but not mention Piccolo at all leads me to believe Piccolo isn't on that level. Vegeta was on that level and they mentioned it, so why not Piccolo as well? They even compare his power to a ssj, but don't say he is stronger than Frieza. I just feel at least one person would of mentioned something.
He isn't exactly on the Saiyans' level, but he's on their overall realm of power. Sure, it would be way more clear if Piccolo was outright stated to be above the old SSJs, but i don't think him not being mentioned nullified the possibility.
He didn't lie though. He just said in a 1v1 he could barely get away with his life which was true. He just didn't mention he could put up a good fight before running like he later did. So I see it more as when Trunks was saying how scary they were he was telling them the scary parts about them, but when he realized how strong the present androids were he told them how he actually could put up a fight against the future androids 1v1. So he didn't lie he just left out unnecessary information that if anything would of just made the fighters train less hard and possibly the readers not be as hyped.
Oh, i thought you said he lied to motivate the Z Fighters. But i still on my point, though. I don't see why Trunks would hide such information to them, it's not like he thinks they're gonna understimate them.
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Pure Boo absorbs him before he can fight. Goku thought the universe would be doomed if the Spirit Bomb failed, even though Gohan was alive and should be able to instantly vaporize Pure Boo with a casual blast.
apex_pretador wrote:#18 is as powerful as piccolo was, when he fused with Kami. She has no means to harm imperfect cell, let alone any higher form.
Didn't #18 threat to kill Shin, who's >>> Post Rosat Kamiccolo though?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:26 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: I don't see how him threating Cold like that means Freeza is a threat to Trunks. Freeza left his guard down, and he payed for it. Same with Cold understimating Trunks and thinking he only killed Freeza because of the sword.
I mean all of Trunk's attacks, his face, and the way he treated Frieza just seemed much more serious than King Cold. Though King Cold might not of even been in his final form.
There's also the fact that even though Vegeta was a SSJ, with his aura and all, Piccolo's fighting Ki outshined Vegeta's standing ki, and SSJs are known for having a considerable ki even without fighting, as noted by Yamcha:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”


So yeah, unless Vegeta's ki while standing is considerably lower to a point it's lower than Freeza, i doubt Piccolo is weaker than Freeza.
Actually Vegeta's standing ki should probably be lower than Frieza's full power. Goku had to power up to just 50% when showing Korrin. That means Vegeta's resting ki is quite a bit lower than 50% of his true power. This is also backed up by ssj Goku's resting power being 3,000 kilis in the Buu saga which was only a little more than 3x Yakkon who had 800 kili and was about equal with base Goku. The guide books say that 800 kili is 40 milliion, about where I have base Goku anyway and matches with him being weaker than Frieza in base, and 3,000 kili is 150 million, which would be his resting power at that time which I think would be about 1/10th of his true power, which also matches it being lower than 50% of his power. The only counter tot his is Dabura saying he had over 4,000 kilis which I think was anime only. Either way there resting power should be below 50% and I don't think Vegeta was quite 2x Frieza yet anyways.
Piccolo said if Gohan got mad he'd be stronger than him, and Enraged Gohan has a stated BP of 2,800.
Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”


So no, Piccolo isn't 3,500. He's below 2,800.
I don't have a problem with that number but I was just saying what the guide book has. And I'm sure Piccolo probably meant that when Gohan's angry he could surpass him, not Gohan's regular full power.
Still, there are a lot of situations were weaker fighters gave stronger ones cosmetic damage. #19 himself made Vegeta's lip bleed and almost knocked him down, Recoome was all covered in bruises after tanking Vegeta's proto Final Flash, etc, etc.
Ya I agree, but 19's mark seemed like it could of been permanent damage.
I'm talking about the Z Fighters above at Kami's Palace sensing Goku's power though.
What did that prove besides they felt Goku being stronger than them?
Like you said, Freeza could use his ki to counter Goku's sword. He could just stop the sword with his bare hands too and break it, like Gohan did against Dabra:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Maybe Freeza could of done that, but if he didn't block it would kill him, and Frieza didn't have time to block Trunks. If Goku did the exact same thing to Frieza on Namek, especially 50% Frieza, Frieza would of been cut right down the middle.
And considering mecha Frieza was stated to be supressed and we never see him charge up, the max I can really put him at is 70% since that's the strongest Frieza ever got without charging up or growing buff.
Or Piccolo went from ~2,500ish to slightly above 265,000 as Nail implied fusing with Kami (Which gives a boost of 2x0 would put him on equal terms or slightly stronger than Freeza. Sorry man, but i don't think there's much to discuss here. Piccolo received a Mr Toriyama handjob like Freeza with his 4 months on FnF.
But there is no evidence Piccolo was even close to the strength you are saying besides trying to say he is half of Frieza, which really makes no sense. And it makes no reason for Toriyama to give him a random boost that big unless he needed it like Frieza did. Piccolo didn't fight without fusing so his base power doesn't need to be that high.
He isn't exactly on the Saiyans' level, but he's on their overall realm of power. Sure, it would be way more clear if Piccolo was outright stated to be above the old SSJs, but i don't think him not being mentioned nullified the possibility.
I agree, I never said the possibility was nullified.
Oh, i thought you said he lied to motivate the Z Fighters. But i still on my point, though. I don't see why Trunks would hide such information to them, it's not like he thinks they're gonna understimate them.
Tbh Goku did underestimate them. It seemed he didn't even train hard and told nobody about the ROSAT.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by nickzambuto » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:51 am

[spoiler]
apex_pretador wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Kid buu blows up the planet

and laughs
dragonball0900 wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Ultimate Gohan stomps everyone easily. He is far above any of these buus.
Noah wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Ultimate Gohan stomps everyone easily. He is far above any of these buus.
I don't think so. I believe his overconfidence and lack of battle smarts would lead to his downfall, even though much stronger than these opponents I can see this match ending with Gohan being absorbed.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Ultimate Gohan vs Fat Boo, Evil Boo, and Pure Boo at once.
Pure Boo absorbs him before he can fight. Goku thought the universe would be doomed if the Spirit Bomb failed, even though Gohan was alive and should be able to instantly vaporize Pure Boo with a casual blast.
[/spoiler]

A lot of very different opinions, that's good. I think it's a good battle considering Gohan has the sheer power advantage, but that's it. He's literally facing the three most versatile and unpredictable characters in the series at once, and combining that with his generally weak disposition towards combat, makes things interesting. I think Gohan would really need to double-down and focus on all of his training in order to pull this off, because he CAN be a very skilled fighter when he feels like it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:59 pm

Base Gotenks (Post-RoSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:58 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Base Gotenks (Post-RoSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu
Either solo with ease. Imo he would need ssj3 to beat either, though I could see a solid argument for him winning with just ssj. But his base form couldn't even phase regular super Buu.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:15 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Base Gotenks (Post-RoSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu
Either solo with ease. Imo he would need ssj3 to beat either, though I could see a solid argument for him winning with just ssj. But his base form couldn't even phase regular super Buu.
Base Gotenks (Post) should be above his Pre-RoSAT SSJ which was already SSJ3 tier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:44 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Base Gotenks (Post) should be above his Pre-RoSAT SSJ which was already SSJ3 tier.
Both those statements are questionable.

base Gotenks couldn't even budge Super Buu
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
And pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks did nothing special. Post ROSAT ssj Gotenks was able to hurt Super Buu with his ghost attack, but he was still no match for him, which means there is nothing putting him above a serious ssj3 Goku. All we know is Goku thought he probably couldn't beat Super Buu. I really don't think base Super Buu and kid Buu are that different in power. Logically he should around kid Buu + fat Buu considering kid Buu came from removing fat Buu from Super Buu. And since kid Buu is stronger than fat Buu that is less than a 2x difference.

And Goku thought Gotenks and Gohan could of been brought back to "help" them, not come in and easily solo. Vegeta even thought the spirit bomb would be a better idea than bringing them. If base Gotenks could really beat Buu, ssj3 Gotenks or mystic Gohan would casually beat him. The spirit bomb was a risky move so the fact Vegeta thought that was a better idea really doesn't bode well for base Gotenks being above kid Buu, especially not being able to beat kid Buu and ssj3 Goku at the same time.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
Imo

pre ROSAT base Gotenks<post ROSAT base Gotenks<=>pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks<=>ssj2 majin Vegeta<=>Mr. Buu<post ROSAT ssj Gotenks<=>Fat Buu<ssj3 Goku<=>kid Buu<Super Buu<=ssj3 Gotenks<mystic Gohan
Last edited by dragon boss z on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:19 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:57 am

dragon boss z wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: Base Gotenks (Post) should be above his Pre-RoSAT SSJ which was already SSJ3 tier.
Both those statements are questionable.

base Gotenks couldn't even budge Super Buu
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

And pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks did nothing special. Post ROSAT ssj Gotenks was able to hurt Super Buu with his ghost attack, but he was still no match for him, which means there is nothing putting him above a serious ssj3 Goku. All we know is Goku thought he probably couldn't beat Super Buu. I really don't think base Super Buu and kid Buu are that different in power. Logically he should around kid Buu + fat Buu considering kid Buu came from removing fat Buu from Super Buu. And since kid Buu is stronger than fat Buu that is less than a 2x difference.

And Goku thought Gotenks and Gohan could of been brought back to "help" them, not come in and easily solo. Vegeta even thought the spirit bomb would be a better idea than bringing them. If base Gotenks could really beat Buu, ssj3 Gotenks or mystic Gohan would casually beat him. The spirit bomb was a risky move so the fact Vegeta thought that was a better idea really doesn't bode well for base Gotenks being above kid Buu, especially not being able to beat kid Buu and ssj3 Goku at the same time.

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

Imo

pre ROSAT base Gotenks<post ROSAT base Gotenks<=>pre ROSAT ssj Gotenks<=>ssj2 majin Vegeta<=>Mr. Buu<post ROSAT ssj Gotenks<=>Fat Buu<ssj3 Goku<=>kid Buu<Super Buu<=ssj3 Gotenks<mystic Gohan
Gotenks does make Buu move in those scans. Also, when SSJ Gotenks goes to fight Buu Piccolo complains that he has less than a minute left implying that he'd win if he had time. This is after Goku told Piccolo he can't beat Buu.

Also, Vegeta just wanted Earth to fend for itself, it had nothing to do with the Genki Dama being the best way. Even Goku thought it was dumb at first.

Also, the actual line is this:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

There's nothing about helping.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:17 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote: Gotenks does make Buu move in those scans.
Barely... And if you include anime ssj3 Goku did better against Buutenks than base Gotenks did against regular super Buu.
Also, when SSJ Gotenks goes to fight Buu Piccolo complains that he has less than a minute left implying that he'd win if he had time.
All that implies is that they have no chance defused, which they don't. Complaining they have a minute left doesn't imply they would win with more time, it just implies it is stupid to fight when you are about to run out of time.
This is after Goku told Piccolo he can't beat Buu.
He lied. I thought this was common knowledge.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Also, Vegeta just wanted Earth to fend for itself, it had nothing to do with the Genki Dama being the best way. Even Goku thought it was dumb at first.
For what reason would Vegeta have wanting the Earth to fend for itself? He said that but he clearly thought that plan would work, which it ended up working. If bringing in Gotenks and Gohan would of been a 100% win he would of chose that. He probably thought they would just get absorbed or something. They're strong, but when it comes to fighting skill or intelligence they aren't on the level of Goku or Vegeta.
Also, the actual line is this:
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”
There's nothing about helping.
Well it doesn't really change anything. I think they are stronger than Buu, but they were stronger than Buu when they fought him the first time as well but they both lost. They had their chance and failed so now it was Goku's turn. And if we go by Super logic, if a Yadrat can almost beat Gohan just by spamming instant transmition, I wouldn't be surprised if ssj3 Goku could beat mystic Gohan that way, or at least give him a run for his money before his power drops.

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