The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BrolyKale » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:13 am

Ki Breaker wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: That's not how the vs thread works either, that's how you work in the vs thread..
She continued pulling powers from everywhere till her last moment on the stage, not like anybody else, ever, that's a pretty broad margin we are playing with here..
This is a defining trait of her personality, her character, and should be taken into consideration whenever discussions about her are made..

This is getting kinda off topic, so here's one

Maji kayo vs Majin Buu
Both Bloodlusted
Ok, Kefla >> all dbs characters if you want.
If I wanted this handy trait of her wouldn't exist but sadly that's not how things work..

Let me take a step back and reorganize what I said, taking into consideration her boosts should be a thing, it's a real phenomenon associated with her character's core concept, but that doesn't actually mean she can beat anyone, Zeno for example, beating him is not a concept introduced yet in Dragonball world, as that doesn't see to be possible to do with power alone, many other characters exist with such intricacies associated with them she can't beat, anilaza isn't one of them..
I said ok, don't worry, you are right.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:16 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Cell said there was some truth to what Goku said, but he never flat out said Gohan was stronger. He very well could of though, but if he was it must of at least been pretty close.
Then why were everyone else shocked? Vegeta, Piccolo, everybody else? If Gohan was not stronger than Goku they wouldn't be surprised at his power. Then we have Gohan directly saying that he thought Goku was weak when he was battling Cell, he even said that he thought both Cell and Goku were playing and not using their full power. Obviously Cell was, but not Goku. That means that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but as you said before, he mentally was holding himself back, but physically he was stronger than Goku and always was during that part of the series.
Noah wrote:Full Power SSJ Goku (Cell Games) vs. 5 Cell Juniors
Goku is much stronger than the Cell Jrs. I say he wins. Even if they were 7.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Goku has pretty much no stamina left, so it's not really impossible that he's that weak. Plus the cover just shows Piccolo's closer to the SSJs than the humans, what's pretty clear already. Not to mention Piccolo looks a bit worse than the SSJs on the cover, he looks like he's out of breath and about to double over:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Though i'm thinking Piccolo can be FP Semi Cell or perhaps SSJG2 Vegeta tier as i've found room for him to be >>> #16 but still trash to Base Saiyans.
Yeah Piccolo being out of the breath is the reason why I say he is not able to fight the Cell Jrs like Vegeta and Trunks. But surely Full Power Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't be able to do the same and would end up being stomped like the earthlings. However, I can agree that Cell Games Piccolo is indeed SSJG2 Vegeta tier, slightly above I would say. That's where I usually put him, since he should stay below Initial Perfect Cell.

Base Saiyans? Piccolo is not weaker than the base saiyans at all. I know there were some "implications" in the Buu arc, but they don't really confirm Piccolo is weaker than base saiyans at all.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Then why were everyone else shocked? Vegeta, Piccolo, everybody else? If Gohan was not stronger than Goku they wouldn't be surprised at his power. Then we have Gohan directly saying that he thought Goku was weak when he was battling Cell, he even said that he thought both Cell and Goku were playing and not using their full power. Obviously Cell was, but not Goku. That means that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but as you said before, he mentally was holding himself back, but physically he was stronger than Goku and always was during that part of the series.
Everyone was shocked because Gohan dwarfed them in power even though he was just a kid who was fodder to them the other day.
And Gohan didn't call Goku weak he just thought he wasn't serious. Logically training in the time chamber they would of went all out against each other and if Gohan was really far ahead of Goku he should of known by training with him. Goku would at least have to be close enough to force Gohan to go all out to beat him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:55 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:Cell said there was some truth to what Goku said, but he never flat out said Gohan was stronger. He very well could of though, but if he was it must of at least been pretty close.
Goku said Gohan would be stronger than both of them. Cell agrees, but says Gohan couldn't beat him. What else does that means?
Yeah Piccolo being out of the breath is the reason why I say he is not able to fight the Cell Jrs like Vegeta and Trunks. But surely Full Power Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't be able to do the same and would end up being stomped like the earthlings. However, I can agree that Cell Games Piccolo is indeed SSJG2 Vegeta tier, slightly above I would say. That's where I usually put him, since he should stay below Initial Perfect Cell.

Base Saiyans? Piccolo is not weaker than the base saiyans at all. I know there were some "implications" in the Buu arc, but they don't really confirm Piccolo is weaker than base saiyans at all.
I don't see why not. Gohan could stand for a while against Recoome, and even Base Vegeta could take several hits from Pure Boo. Standing against playful opponents doesn't mean much.

It's more because i'm a Base > Shin supporter, and i've come to terms with Shin >>> Piccolo. Gohan and Vegeta's confidence on the Budokai says a lot, too.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:11 pm

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Goku said Gohan would be stronger than both of them. Cell agrees, but says Gohan couldn't beat him. What else does that means?
Cell didn't say "yes you are right", he said there may be some truth to what Goku was saying. And it was stated multiple times they were talking about angry Gohan. And yes Cell meant angry Gohan as well, since he thought angry Gohan would still be below him.

So basically it would go
Ssj Gohan (mentally holding back)<ssj Goku<=full power ssj Gohan<angry ssj Gohan<Cell<ssj2 Gohan
I don't see why not. Gohan could stand for a while against Recoome, and even Base Vegeta could take several hits from Pure Boo. Standing against playful opponents doesn't mean much.

It's more because i'm a Base > Shin supporter, and i've come to terms with Shin >>> Piccolo. Gohan and Vegeta's confidence on the Budokai says a lot, too.
Well Mr. Satan took some hits from pure Buu as well, lol. And one of them was after he expelled Fat Buu.
And didn't the Daizenshuu say Kibito was base Gohan level? And Shin did as good as ssj/ssj2 Gohan did against Buu.
Imo
Kibito<=base Gohan<base Gohan post z sword<Base Goku<Piccolo<Shin<ssj

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by nickzambuto » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:29 pm

Is there any appreciable difference between a one-handed and two-handed kamehameha?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Cell didn't say "yes you are right", he said there may be some truth to what Goku was saying. And it was stated multiple times they were talking about angry Gohan. And yes Cell meant angry Gohan as well, since he thought angry Gohan would still be below him.

So basically it would go
Ssj Gohan (mentally holding back)<ssj Goku<=full power ssj Gohan<angry ssj Gohan<Cell<ssj2 Gohan
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”


He said Goku was wasn't bluffing, except for the part he was stronger than him. And Cell wasn't aware of Gohan's rage until Gohan mentioned it after recovered from Cell's initial blows.

It's more like
SSJ2 Gohan = SSJ Gohan (Enraged) >>> Cell >>> SSJ Gohan >> Goku IMO

Well Mr. Satan took some hits from pure Buu as well, lol. And one of them was after he expelled Fat Buu.
And didn't the Daizenshuu say Kibito was base Gohan level? And Shin did as good as ssj/ssj2 Gohan did against Buu.
Imo
Kibito<=base Gohan<base Gohan post z sword<Base Goku<Piccolo<Shin<ssj
That's pretty much my point. Surviving blows from playful opponents doesn't mean much. Though Satan is a gag character, so he really doesn't count.

As for Kibito, the Daizenshuu does say it based on Gohan thinking he needs SSJ to beat Kibito. That is contrradicted by this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

As for Shin, he didn't do better than Gohan at all. Gohan's kick actually annoyed Boo as he got mad and blasted him away, but Boo was pretty much playing with Shin.
nickzambuto wrote:Is there any appreciable difference between a one-handed and two-handed kamehameha?
Not really. Perhaps the one handed is weaker, but nothing really confirmed.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:15 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”


He said Goku was wasn't bluffing, except for the part he was stronger than him. And Cell wasn't aware of Gohan's rage until Gohan mentioned it after recovered from Cell's initial blows.

It's more like
SSJ2 Gohan = SSJ Gohan (Enraged) >>> Cell >>> SSJ Gohan >> Goku IMO
Well said it wasn't a complete bluff, but he didn't outright say Gohan was stronger than Goku either. And even after that while Cell beat up Gohan I believe multiple people said it should be Goku fighting. But your conclusion is possible as well.
As for Kibito, the Daizenshuu does say it based on Gohan thinking he needs SSJ to beat Kibito. That is contrradicted by this:
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Ya that does contradict that. But maybe Kibito could hold his own with special techniques like how Zamasu did against SSG Goku in the super manga. Also Kibito was able to spar with Zamasu in the super manga as well. If I had to chose though I would say base Gohan could beat Kibito.
As for Shin, he didn't do better than Gohan at all. Gohan's kick actually annoyed Boo as he got mad and blasted him away, but Boo was pretty much playing with Shin.
True. Though if Shin is really above Piccolo, he should be above the base saiyans as well, especially with Beerus saying Frieza>base Goku.
Though I think an argument could be made that Piccolo didn't mean power, and that Shin meant he could one shot first form Frieza, as Shin seamed clueless about everything. If he knew about the saiyans, but not about their full power (which they went into multiple times), why would he know about Frieza's full power which he only entered once for less than 5 minutes?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:32 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Well said it wasn't a complete bluff, but he didn't outright say Gohan was stronger than Goku either. And even after that while Cell beat up Gohan I believe multiple people said it should be Goku fighting. But your conclusion is possible as well.
Because Goku already said it, Cell just semi-confirmed, denying only the part that Gohan could beat him.
People thought Goku should be fighting because Gohan is a kid, while Goku is a experienced fighter. It's pretty much the same reason they chose Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Roshi over the boys for the ToP.
Ya that does contradict that. But maybe Kibito could hold his own with special techniques like how Zamasu did against SSG Goku in the super manga. Also Kibito was able to spar with Zamasu in the super manga as well. If I had to chose though I would say base Gohan could beat Kibito.
Some people try to counter that by saying amount of ki =/= lifting strength, but i disagree. Goku and Trunks needed SSJ to lift themselves on the begining of the arc.

And i think it's most likely Kibito just got randomly stronger by Super. Gohan made is guess based on Kibito's appearence.
True. Though if Shin is really above Piccolo, he should be above the base saiyans as well, especially with Beerus saying Frieza>base Goku.
Though I think an argument could be made that Piccolo didn't mean power, and that Shin meant he could one shot first form Frieza, as Shin seamed clueless about everything. If he knew about the saiyans, but not about their full power (which they went into multiple times), why would he know about Frieza's full power which he only entered once for less than 5 minutes?
Taking Beerus words seriously, we'd end up with conclusions like Freeza > Base Gotenks (Goku is stated multiple times to be the strongest Z Fighter by this point) and Shin > SSJ Goku (Beerus said beating Freeza was the best Goku could do after he sees him as a SSJ). Not to mention Beerus' words are contradicted by FnF Base Gohan >>> Piccolo.

I don't see why he wouldn't be refering to power. Goku asked to Piccolo if Shin was too strong for him, Piccolo answered on the same way Tenshinhan described SSJ Goku ("Dimensions above") and Kuririn was scared to fight him.

Shin has been alive even before Freeza was born, he could've seen Freeza's power in the past before, considering the transformations were made later to Freeza suppress his huge power.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:19 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Taking Beerus words seriously, we'd end up with conclusions like Freeza > Base Gotenks (Goku is stated multiple times to be the strongest Z Fighter by this point)
Imo fusion multipliers don't work the same way. Base Gotenks seemed to be around Cell tier, but I don't think his ssj3 form was much stronger than Goku's. Kind of like the fusion brings out more of their potential in their base forms so transforming doesn't do as much.
and Shin > SSJ Goku (Beerus said beating Freeza was the best Goku could do after he sees him as a SSJ).
I assume he was talking about mortals though. Or like I said Shin might actually be way weaker than Piccolo and only stronger than first form Frieza.
Not to mention Beerus' words are contradicted by FnF Base Gohan >>> Piccolo.
FnF Gohan was about equal with Piccolo, not above, and they seemingly nerfed the crap out of Piccolo as he had trouble with a Zarbon level opponent in the movie and a trained Tagoma in the anime. I mean even first form Frieza was able to beat Gohan, and everyone else at the same time. If anything that is implying Frieza was already extremely strong beforehand. Imo the writers did a really bad job powerscaling in the RoF arc, even more so than the other Super arcs.
I don't see why he wouldn't be refering to power. Goku asked to Piccolo if Shin was too strong for him, Piccolo answered on the same way Tenshinhan described SSJ Goku ("Dimensions above") and Kuririn was scared to fight him.
I agree that is the most likely scenario, I'm saying that technically it doesn't have to be the case.
Shin has been alive even before Freeza was born, he could've seen Freeza's power in the past before, considering the transformations were made later to Freeza suppress his huge power.
Frieza said nobody witnessed his 3rd form before them and the only person he ever pushed his final form was his father. So if Shin didn't even know the extent of the Z fighters power, even though they jump 2 ssj all of the time, then it wouldn't' be too far fetched he underestimated Frieza as well.
I personally think Shin>Frieza, but I could easily see that being retconned.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:57 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
Superman could easily go through steel walls and a battleship's main gun would be nothing to him.
DCEU Kryptonians get KOd by missile fire.
Tao must of been propelling the pillar with ki/flying technique, since no matter how strong he through the pillar, it should of hit the ground in seocnds. That is how physics works. If you shoot a gun, the bullet hits the ground the same time as if you dropped it from your hand.
Dunno what to say to this other than "Nice headcanon"
Why wouldn't he use this mysterious flying technique to just fly himself?? :lol:
That attack from Nappa wasn't very potent though. It was just a wide spread attack that vaporized everything that wasn't very durable around it.
It was an explosion of ki and the spacepods were at the epicentre, therefore they had to have taken on a lot of the force and tanked it.

apex_pretador wrote:Not a single feat of them has been performed by Krillin.

Nor has Krillin outmuscled any of these characters.

Are you saying Krillin is weaker than Raditz?

Is that what you're really saying?
Using power levels is an extremely faulty scaling
Krillin "outmuscled" all those scrubs once he got a higher PL than them, that's the way Dragon Ball was written

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:55 am

The Monkey King wrote: DCEU Kryptonians get KOd by missile fire.
Superman>>>average DCEU Kryptonian. That's like comparing Goku to other saiyans.
Dunno what to say to this other than "Nice headcanon"
Why wouldn't he use this mysterious flying technique to just fly himself?? :lol:
Like I said, the feat defies the laws of physics.
So either it was a gag feat (the most likely scenario)
Or he was using the flying technique in some way, which we know for a fact his brother knew and was a master of.
It was an explosion of ki and the spacepods were at the epicentre, therefore they had to have taken on a lot of the force and tanked it.
Ya they probably are really strong, but I wouldn't be surprised if Superman could break one the same way Gohan did.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:46 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
Superman could easily go through steel walls and a battleship's main gun would be nothing to him.

DCEU Kryptonians get KOd by missile fire.
Superman is in this thread, not weaker kryptonians.
Superman no-sold two missiles and a drone in BvS and wasn't even slowed down.


apex_pretador wrote:Not a single feat of them has been performed by Krillin.

Nor has Krillin outmuscled any of these characters.

Are you saying Krillin is weaker than Raditz?

Is that what you're really saying?
I'm not saying anything. Show krillin's feats, or someone who krillin overpowered
Using power levels is an extremely faulty scaling
Krillin "outmuscled" all those scrubs once he got a higher PL than them, that's the way Dragon Ball was written
[/quote]Okay, "show" me krillin outmuscling them.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:56 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Imo fusion multipliers don't work the same way. Base Gotenks seemed to be around Cell tier, but I don't think his ssj3 form was much stronger than Goku's. Kind of like the fusion brings out more of their potential in their base forms so transforming doesn't do as much.
I think similiar to you. I do think SSJ3 Gotenks is >>> SSJ3 Goku based on the implications of Base Gotenks surpassing his prior SSJ self on the Rosat though.
I assume he was talking about mortals though. Or like I said Shin might actually be way weaker than Piccolo and only stronger than first form Frieza.
Why would he only talk about mortals?
FnF Gohan was about equal with Piccolo, not above, and they seemingly nerfed the crap out of Piccolo as he had trouble with a Zarbon level opponent in the movie and a trained Tagoma in the anime. I mean even first form Frieza was able to beat Gohan, and everyone else at the same time. If anything that is implying Frieza was already extremely strong beforehand. Imo the writers did a really bad job powerscaling in the RoF arc, even more so than the other Super arcs.
Tagoma called Gohan the most dangerous Z Fighter so yeah, he was stronger. And if it's possible that Piccolo was nerfed, why not say Freeza was buffed? I mean, even by EoZ Goku is implied to be above SSJ2 Tier in base but should still be weaker than Chou Gohan, as he went trought a ritual that unlocks his potential (Which is leaps and bounds above Goku's) and further. Goku would never caught up to Gohan without plot.
Frieza said nobody witnessed his 3rd form before them and the only person he ever pushed his final form was his father. So if Shin didn't even know the extent of the Z fighters power, even though they jump 2 ssj all of the time, then it wouldn't' be too far fetched he underestimated Frieza as well.
I personally think Shin>Frieza, but I could easily see that being retconned.
Shin watchs thing from the Kaioshin Realm, there's no way Freeza could know Shin was watching him.
And if it's possible to assume Shin didn't know the full extense of Freeza's power, why not assume the same for Beerus, and therefore say he was wrong?
apex_pretador wrote:I'm not saying anything. Show krillin's feats, or someone who krillin overpowered
To be honest he did surpass Nappa (The guy who did the most impressive feat on the list) so yeah, Kuririn definitely overpowered everyone on that list and should be able to perform those feats even easier. I mean c'mon, it's indeed important to show proof of the character's strenght, but asking if current Kuririn has surpassed Nappa is playing dumb. That's common sense.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:46 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Why would he only talk about mortals?
Well Beerus himself thought nobody could beat Frieza, so if he was considering non mortals why would he be surprised if a supreme kai beat him? Either way that was an anime only line. The only line that showed up in both the movie and Super was base Goku can't beat Frieza.
Tagoma called Gohan the most dangerous Z Fighter so yeah, he was stronger.
Well Piccolo still had his weights on, and the writers are a bit coocoo imo. Just a couple episodes later Piccolo had the upper hand on base Gohan when recruiting for the U6 arc and Goku implied Piccolo would be better than a rusty Gohan.
And if it's possible that Piccolo was nerfed, why not say Freeza was buffed?
I mean Frieza was buffed. His first form was above rusty ssj Gohan. However Piccolo was so weak a Frieza soldier passed him after 4 months. Piccolo had two fusions, trained for the androids for 3 years, then in the ROSAT for 1 year. And you can't even say Tagoma's power level started off at 20-30 k so he had better potential, because Nail had a power level of 42k, so one of the people Piccolo fused with had a higher base power level than Tagoma. Then when Tagoma/Ginyu attacked all of them at once Piccolo was floored by the same move that floored skinny Roshi, and Roshi didn't take anymore damage than Piccolo did. Absolute trash writing, one of the worst moments of the series for me. Completely stomped on what Piccolo worked for all these years and all the boosts he had. The writing is so bad I legitimately think they may of forgot how strong Piccolo became going more off his namek saga power. Tagoma became stronger than base Gohan but weaker than rusty ssj Gohan, and the fight was even compared to the Frieza fight, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to be 50% final form Frieza tier, making the fights with Gohan make sense, but since they forgot Piccolo became android + tier they would of went with Piccolo being 2nd form Frieza tier and got stronger himself making him around android saga base Vegeta or above. Strong enough to be around rusty base Gohan level but weak enough to get stomped by a Frieza level opponent. The only other way I see Piccolo being rusty base Gohan tier is if Gohan had access to some of his mystic power, which is possible since Gohan said he was having trouble accessing his full power, but he might of just meant his full base power.
Tbh I don't even think they thought about it at all. I would bet money it went like this. When making the movie the manuscript from Toriyama said one of the soldiers was pretty strong and would give them some trouble. The writers then decided to have him fight Piccolo and Gohan to go ssj to beat him. They had him challenge Piccolo because they thought the humans were too weak and wanted to build some suspense.
Then in Super the writers based the scaling off the RoF movie instead of going back and reading the entire manga. Piccolo had trouble with Shisami and they made Tagoma stronger than Shisami, so in their minds he should be stronger than Piccolo as well.
I mean these are the same guys who had Frieza say he would acheive a power level of 1.3 million, and I'm almost sure they got that from the line 530,000 line in the F song, which flat out says Frieza's power level is 530,000. So they based the power levels off a couple minute song instead of going back and reading the entire manga.
Yes, these are a lot of assumptions, but I believe they are very likely scenarios.
I mean, even by EoZ Goku is implied to be above SSJ2 Tier in base but should still be weaker than Chou Gohan, as he went trought a ritual that unlocks his potential (Which is leaps and bounds above Goku's) and further. Goku would never caught up to Gohan without plot.
EoZ Goku only fought Uub who had an unkown power. Also as we know now he went through Whis training and absorbed god ki, so of course he would be above ssj2 level in base.
Shin watchs thing from the Kaioshin Realm, there's no way Freeza could know Shin was watching him.
Shin was watching Goku and company and didn't know the full extent of their powers. He completely underestimated them.
And if it's possible to assume Shin didn't know the full extense of Freeza's power, why not assume the same for Beerus, and therefore say he was wrong?
Beerus went up and inspected Goku, so I assume he knew what he was talking about, and Goku didn't say you are wrong and power up his base, King Kai actually agreed with Beerus.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:49 pm

I've asked this question for Gohan, now I'll ask again, but this time, it'll be for two other Half Saiyans. And that is...

How strong would hypothetical SSJ Rage Goten and (Present) Trunks be? And who would be the strongest character they would defeat?

Obviously I'm not asking about SSJ Rage Gotenks because he'd probably be a little too strong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Well Beerus himself thought nobody could beat Frieza, so if he was considering non mortals why would he be surprised if a supreme kai beat him? Either way that was an anime only line. The only line that showed up in both the movie and Super was base Goku can't beat Frieza.
True, it was only in Super Anime. Probably it was Toei's choice to add the quote and screw everything.
Well Piccolo still had his weights on, and the writers are a bit coocoo imo. Just a couple episodes later Piccolo had the upper hand on base Gohan when recruiting for the U6 arc and Goku implied Piccolo would be better than a rusty Gohan.
Because weights do a lot of difference. Like when Weighted Kamiccolo went from rivaling #17 to... Rivaling #17 by removing weights. I remember someone made a point once that Piccolo doesn't wear heavy weights anymore because they doesn't make a sound when Piccolo drops them on the floor, but i never confirmed that myself.

As for Gohan vs Piccolo, they were fighting evenly. And U6 Piccolo doesn't count because he's a different, stronger Piccolo altogether, he could block hits from someone stronger than FnF Freeza, despite the fact that 1st form Freeza pretty much pooped on him and Gohan back on FnF.
I mean Frieza was buffed. His first form was above rusty ssj Gohan. However Piccolo was so weak a Frieza soldier passed him after 4 months. Piccolo had two fusions, trained for the androids for 3 years, then in the ROSAT for 1 year. And you can't even say Tagoma's power level started off at 20-30 k so he had better potential, because Nail had a power level of 42k, so one of the people Piccolo fused with had a higher base power level than Tagoma. Then when Tagoma/Ginyu attacked all of them at once Piccolo was floored by the same move that floored skinny Roshi, and Roshi didn't take anymore damage than Piccolo did. Absolute trash writing, one of the worst moments of the series for me. Completely stomped on what Piccolo worked for all these years and all the boosts he had. The writing is so bad I legitimately think they may of forgot how strong Piccolo became going more off his namek saga power. Tagoma became stronger than base Gohan but weaker than rusty ssj Gohan, and the fight was even compared to the Frieza fight, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was supposed to be 50% final form Frieza tier, making the fights with Gohan make sense, but since they forgot Piccolo became android + tier they would of went with Piccolo being 2nd form Frieza tier and got stronger himself making him around android saga base Vegeta or above. Strong enough to be around rusty base Gohan level but weak enough to get stomped by a Frieza level opponent. The only other way I see Piccolo being rusty base Gohan tier is if Gohan had access to some of his mystic power, which is possible since Gohan said he was having trouble accessing his full power, but he might of just meant his full base power.
Tbh I don't even think they thought about it at all. I would bet money it went like this. When making the movie the manuscript from Toriyama said one of the soldiers was pretty strong and would give them some trouble. The writers then decided to have him fight Piccolo and Gohan to go ssj to beat him. They had him challenge Piccolo because they thought the humans were too weak and wanted to build some suspense.
Then in Super the writers based the scaling off the RoF movie instead of going back and reading the entire manga. Piccolo had trouble with Shisami and they made Tagoma stronger than Shisami, so in their minds he should be stronger than Piccolo as well.
I mean these are the same guys who had Frieza say he would acheive a power level of 1.3 million, and I'm almost sure they got that from the line 530,000 line in the F song, which flat out says Frieza's power level is 530,000. So they based the power levels off a couple minute song instead of going back and reading the entire manga.
Yes, these are a lot of assumptions, but I believe they are very likely scenarios.
Uh... I'm refering to Freeza being buffed on BoGs when Beerus said Base Goku couldn't beat him. Similiar to how Freeza was surprised someone (Goku) was stronger than Ginyu, despite the fact he just fought 3-4 guys stronger than Ginyu. Or how Tsuru was surprised that Goku could beat Tao despite Goku just won against Kuririn, who's stronger than Baba Goku, who rick-rolled Tao.
EoZ Goku only fought Uub who had an unkown power. Also as we know now he went through Whis training and absorbed god ki, so of course he would be above ssj2 level in base.
Goku expected Oob to be stronger than him and Boo:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”


And after fighting him in Base, Goku confirmed Oob is the guy he's looking for:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8
Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”


Some people like to round it up and have Oob ~ Pure Boo and Base Goku ~ SSJ3 Goku (Boo), but Goku being like, Grey Boo level is more than enough.
Shin was watching Goku and company and didn't know the full extent of their powers. He completely underestimated them.
That's because Freeza's role in the universe as a dictator was bigger than the Saiyans' acting only on earth, it is possible that Shin was only watching Freeza and saw Goku beating him but never bothered to look on earth again until he knew about Babidi going there.
Beerus went up and inspected Goku, so I assume he knew what he was talking about, and Goku didn't say you are wrong and power up his base, King Kai actually agreed with Beerus.
The same inconsistence applies to Shin here. Goku thought one shoting Freeza was an amazing feat. Of course, Goku never saw Freeza until their fight and probably thought the transformations were power ups, but still. Goku's reaction implies Shin was talking about Freeza at his best, and Toriyama never put any hint about Shin refering to an inferior form of Freeza.
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:I've asked this question for Gohan, now I'll ask again, but this time, it'll be for two other Half Saiyans. And that is...

How strong would hypothetical SSJ Rage Goten and (Present) Trunks be? And who would be the strongest character they would defeat?

Obviously I'm not asking about SSJ Rage Gotenks because he'd probably be a little too strong.
SSJ Rage seems to be a multiplier higher than SSJB, who in turn is higher than SSJ3 boost. Ignoring Toei's nerf the boys are CG Goku Tier, so... Probably about Initial Super Boo? Perhaps higher, but they're definitely weaker than Post Rosat SSJ Gotenks.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Piccolo P » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:25 pm

https://youtu.be/IlmTT-LdkBw

I thought Piccolo would win tbh...

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:58 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: True, it was only in Super Anime. Probably it was Toei's choice to add the quote and screw everything.
I do think this is the case.
Because weights do a lot of difference. Like when Weighted Kamiccolo went from rivaling #17 to... Rivaling #17 by removing weights. I remember someone made a point once that Piccolo doesn't wear heavy weights anymore because they doesn't make a sound when Piccolo drops them on the floor, but i never confirmed that myself.
It was confirmed he used weighted clothes in the U6 tournament.
As for Gohan vs Piccolo, they were fighting evenly.
Gohan was breathing heavily while Piccolo wasn't.
And U6 Piccolo doesn't count because he's a different, stronger Piccolo altogether, he could block hits from someone stronger than FnF Freeza, despite the fact that 1st form Freeza pretty much pooped on him and Gohan back on FnF.
FnF Frieza was still stronger than Frost.
Uh... I'm refering to Freeza being buffed on BoGs when Beerus said Base Goku couldn't beat him. Similiar to how Freeza was surprised someone (Goku) was stronger than Ginyu, despite the fact he just fought 3-4 guys stronger than Ginyu.
I think I remember which line you are talking about, but if I could get a scan that would be nice.
Or how Tsuru was surprised that Goku could beat Tao despite Goku just won against Kuririn, who's stronger than Baba Goku, who rick-rolled Tao.
Imo Krillin might not of been stronger than Tao or baba Goku.
Goku expected Oob to be stronger than him and Boo:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”


And after fighting him in Base, Goku confirmed Oob is the guy he's looking for:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8
Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”


Some people like to round it up and have Oob ~ Pure Boo and Base Goku ~ SSJ3 Goku (Boo), but Goku being like, Grey Boo level is more than enough.
I mean those lines are just too unclear and it is just Goku guessing anyways, hence he said "might" win. And clearly that line was completely false anyways as even if we ignore super Goku could of stomep Uub with one hit as a ssj3.
That's because Freeza's role in the universe as a dictator was bigger than the Saiyans' acting only on earth, it is possible that Shin was only watching Freeza and saw Goku beating him but never bothered to look on earth again until he knew about Babidi going there.
Ya, but since Frieza almost never transforms the chance of Shin to be watching at the time of him powering up are low. It seemed like he wasn't even watching Frieza fight Goku and that was Frieza's most important fight.
The same inconsistence applies to Shin here. Goku thought one shoting Freeza was an amazing feat. Of course, Goku never saw Freeza until their fight and probably thought the transformations were power ups, but still. Goku's reaction implies Shin was talking about Freeza at his best, and Toriyama never put any hint about Shin refering to an inferior form of Freeza.
I agree that it is most likely him talking about final form Frieza from a writing perspective, especially at the time. I'm just saying it could easily be retconned to him talking about first form Frieza. Also Shin wasn't actually talking about himself, he was talking about the other supreme kais who were actually strong enough to make Buu want to absorb them. And speaking of that, the fact that each universe having 5 supreme kais being retconned to only having 1 happened, anything could be retconned at this point, especially this considering Shin never said which form of Frieza.

but currently I believe
Frieza(namek)<semi perfect Cell<=>ssj Gohan (RoF)<=>Shin<perfect Cell

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