Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
- 100% Mutenroshi vs. Super Gotenks
- Nuova Shenron vs. Krillin
- Recoome vs. Android 17 (Cell arc)
-Roshi
-Krillin. Nova Shenron's heat might be a con to Krillin though
-Android 17 stomps (EDIT: His Abilities and Infinite Supply of Enegy by far surpasses Recoome)
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
AvatarReiko wrote:SSJ2 Goku vs SSJ2 Kafla and Cabba
Kefla stomps on her own. Base Form alone is all she needs. Goku stomps Cabba though
AvatarReiko wrote:SSJR Black vs SSJBKKx10 Goku
Current Goku stomps
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
jeffbr92 wrote:- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks
-Android 20
-Spopovitch
-I'm assuming this is Post ROSAT, so Gotenks
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
- 100% Mutenroshi vs. Super Gotenks
- Nuova Shenron vs. Krillin
- Recoome vs. Android 17 (Cell arc)
- Roshi stomps. He's light years above Gotenks in experience, and Gotenks is too imature to actually beat him.
- Kuririn is one of the best hand to hand fighters in Dragon Ball, so give this to him. Nuova's heat may overhelm him, though.
- Recoome wins IMO, but only because you specified they have limited stamina. Recoome's techniques seems powerful enough to weaken #17's shield.
jeffbr92 wrote:
- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks
- #20 stomps. Trunks is marginally stronger than Gohan according to Bulma, and #20 was considered as strong as the Androids they expected by the Z Fighters.
- Chi-Chi stomps. I don't think Spopovich is anything special considering he was getting beaten up by Videl until she got tired from beating him.
- Base Gotenks was considered a powerhouse by the people on Kami's Castle and Kuririn and Yamcha even thought he might beat Boo, not to mention Piccolo was unable of stoping Gotenks. Gotenks definitely finger clicks Piccolo.
jeffbr92 wrote:- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks
- Future ssj Gohan. If you go by the anime he put up a good fight against future 17 and 18 at the same time and I don't think 20 is quite on ssj level.
- I think Chichi is stronger, but I don't think she can put Spopovich down, plush Spopovich can fly and shoot ki blasts. Spopovich wins eventually.
- Base Gotenks seems to be implied to be stronger
AvatarReiko wrote:SSJ2 Goku vs SSJ2 Kafla and Cabba
SSJR Black vs SSJBKKx10 Goku
Do you been Caulifla? Because Kefla beats ssj2 Goku in base.
Goku could arguably win with just SSB, but he definitely takes it with kaioken x10.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Vegeta stomps IMO. Yakon would be a better match for him.
Kaioshin = MSsj Goku Cell Saga:
This guide is called "El Manga Legendario" which is completely dedicated to the Manga only. It's made by Bird Studio, however it was published only in French and Spanish.
I went on to translate it, and I got a tough translation of this:
"A pesar de ocultar su fuerza cuando se conocieron, Goku sospecho que no era alguien corriente. Aunque tiene unas habilidades fuera de lo común, no parece que supere en fuerza de combate a los supersaiyanos. A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game. Más adelante, su poder aumenta al fusionarse con Kibito, pero ni siquiera así pudo luchar contra Bu con garantias."
"Despite hiding their strength when they met, Goku suspected that he was not ordinary. Although he has extraordinary abilities, he does not seem to surpass the Supersaiyan in combat strength. Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, similar in level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increased when he merged with Kibito, but even so he could not fight against Bu with guarantees"
Yakon and Pui Pui > Kaioshin.
By The Way, Do you believe Gohan in DBS (prior to Piccolo's Training) got weaker than his Buu Saga counterpart? Just interested in knowing your answer to it.
It's cool to see an official statement on Kaioshin's strength, even moreso when it seems to work/fit the implications really well. I mean, Shin was stated to have been way stronger than Piccolo (who, by the Boo saga, could very well have been already at [Cell Games] SSJ Vegeta's level)... yet he was obviously uncomfortable with the thought of them facing an opponent stated by Goku to be about as strong as Cell... so Cell Games Goku seems like a good middle ground here.
Btw, do you know if there's an official take on Piccolo's power pre fusion with Kami? I have him surpassing the SSJs from three years ago (that is, Goku and Trunks SSJ from Trunks' saga), yet still falling short to the androids saga SSJs, but it'd still be cool to see an official statement on the matter.
I always hoped Super would clarify some plcements who aren't so set in stone, like this one.
ahill1 wrote:Btw, do you know if there's an official take on Piccolo's power pre fusion with Kami? I have him surpassing the SSJs from three years ago (that is, Goku and Trunks SSJ from Trunks' saga), yet still falling short to the androids saga SSJs, but it'd still be cool to see an official statement on the matter.
I always hoped Super would clarify some plcements who aren't so set in stone, like this one.
The manga showing Piccolo wrecking someone who's >> Trunks isn't enough?
jeffbr92 wrote:- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks
1. Future Gohan. I consider him even with Kamiccolo
2. Chichi. She is relative to King Piccolo
3. Piccolo. I consider Buu-Saga Piccolo to be even with Perfect Cell
kn83 wrote:Buuhan vs Base Caulifla
Base Vegito (Goku Black arc) vs Current 17 and Golden Freeza
Super Perfect Cell vs Basil
Hit vs SSJ Rage Trunks
1. Base Caulifla stomps.
Base Goku and Vegeta = Base Cabba and Caulifla = Final Form Frieza (Super) >>> 1st Form Freeza (Super) = Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu. I don't think Buu + Ultimate Gohan could even come close to Base Caulifla.
2. I don't exactly understand how Potara fusion multipliers work, but I think 17 and Frieza would win, since imo Base Kefla should be as strong as Base Vegito, and Base Kefla > Weakened SSG Goku << Full Power SSB Goku = True Golden Frieza.
3. Idk, not enough feats from Basil, but I think that he is somewhere in the middle between Super Perfect Cell and Fat Buu, so I'll give this one to Basil.
4. Since Hit is at least SSBKKX10 Goku level, he stomps.
Also, forgive me for the lack of reasoning in my previous post in this thread, I was wrong.
ahill1 wrote:Btw, do you know if there's an official take on Piccolo's power pre fusion with Kami? I have him surpassing the SSJs from three years ago (that is, Goku and Trunks SSJ from Trunks' saga), yet still falling short to the androids saga SSJs, but it'd still be cool to see an official statement on the matter.
If you mean an evidence from guides, then sorry, but I haven't found any. However, it's very evident enough for us to suggest that Piccolo surpassed The Super Saiyans prior 3 years of training in the Android Saga.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
So you think RoF First Form Freeza would stomp Super Boo?
kn83 wrote:Future Gohan. I consider him even with Kamiccolo
That doesn't make sense considering future androids were weaker than present ones, so if Future Gohan as that strong he should have killed the androids already.
kn83 wrote:Buuhan vs Base Caulifla
I don't think it's only a matter of power, I don't see Caulifla having an attack powerful enough to finish Boo, also being weaker he could simply absorb her.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
kn83 wrote:Base Gotenks vs Semi-Perfect Cell
SSJ Rage Trunks vs Current Golden Freeza
Current 17 vs Hit
SSJ2 Kefla vs Merged Zamasu
- Base Gotenks stomps
-Current Golden Frieza stomps
-Hit
-Kefla at full power stomps. Loses if she drags it out and recklessly fights, and that's assuming Zamasu's Immortality is off
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:
Spoiler:
1.) People who depend on factual material, evidences and valid supports rather than speculation and opinions
2.) People who are ready to debate you and are capable of providing evidence on par, if not more, than me
3.) People who logically argue over things, and rightfully concede if they are wrong, without pointless resistance for the purpose of maintaining one's own beliefs. (This also applies to me)
4.) People who are blunt. Being so nice in debates is fine, but it sometimes restricts people from expressing all their knowledge and arguments. Though that doesn't mean you should be rude and disrespectful
5.) People who debate with passion. I don't stand debating with people who do not enjoy debating with me. It's fair that both me and the other debater are willing to Debate for the enjoyment of it
6.) People who don't like to drag a debate for long. Just debate for a specific set of point; Debating for a predetermined amount, and leave the debate as it is, left to be judged by others. Dragging debates pointlessly results in nothing but Agreeing to Disagree (forcefully) and sometimes flame wars, which aren't favourable results.
7.) People who argue with a powerful tone, though they must have the experience to back it up.
8.) People who show clarity. I need to understand the person I'm debating as much as possible. Though the one I'm debating, including me, should be capable of understanding the other in general, so no blaming would occur
9.) People who are capable of making worthy Rebuttals.
10.) People who are used to Debating Often.
With doing all that, My experience would increase dramatically, and my joy would jump even further. I'd like to make sure my time was never wasted while debating.
Gotenks vaporizes him
Trunks murks Freezer again
Without intel on Hit's techniques 17 gets utterly destroyed. Even knowing the result doesn't change
Which one? Anime Zamasu kills her, the manga version or the initial anime one doesn't stand a chance but cannot be killed.
Beginning of Z Goku vs The top 8 of 23th Tenkaiichi
Namek saga Krillin (when he fought Freeza) vs Ginyu
Super Perfect Cell (KKx10) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
SSJG Goku (BoG arc) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (GT)
Super 17 (GT) vs Frost (ToP arc)
Freeza one shots. The increase SSJBs had in power post Black is tremendous. Trunks hardly is something to the main characters of thr tournament.
kn83 wrote:Beginning of Z Goku vs The top 8 of 23th Tenkaiichi
Half dead Piccolo and limbless Goku were far stronger than everyone at the 23rd Budokai. Considering BoZ Goku is still on pair wirh a Piccolo who trained his ass for for years, Golu solos with ease.
Namek saga Krillin (when he fought Freeza) vs Ginyu
Vegeta considered Kuririn useful and called power as a factor for it, so Kuririn stomps.
Super Perfect Cell (KKx10) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
Goku wins, but barely. SPC is still at rivaling range (Albeit on the of very end of it) but has better stamina.
Most people will say Cell stomps though, considering SEG has SSJ3 as 4x SSJ2.
SSJG Goku (BoG arc) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (GT)
Goku stomps. Gogeta doesn't have any universal feats like Goku has.
