The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Superboy-Prime Solos » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:40 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Superboy-Prime Solos wrote: Prime's Retcon Punch Can Change Someone's Existence, Retcon Them Out Of Existence, Make Them Non-Canon And More.
It Has Been Shown To Work On A Multiversal Scale, While
Isn’t this basically what Zeno does? This is like Jiren merged with Zeno.
Making Someone Non-Canon Makes It So That They NEVER HAD EXISTED, While Zeno Just Erases Someone From The Present And Then On.
Always Remember This: Superboy-Prime Solos Dragon Ball

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BlueVegerot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:04 pm

SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:28 pm

BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
Toppo pretty comfortably.

Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
SSBE Vegeta(post boost vs Toppo)vs SSJ2 Kefla
Anilaza vs Merged Zamasu
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BlueVegerot » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:55 pm

PFM18 wrote:
BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
Toppo pretty comfortably.

Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
SSBE Vegeta(post boost vs Toppo)vs SSJ2 Kefla
Anilaza vs Merged Zamasu
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza
I Assume you mean anime

Base Cabba
Piccolo
Roshi
Tagoma
SSBE Vegeta
M Zamasu
Tien

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:13 pm

theherodjl wrote:Let's see how far Goku, from the first chapter of DB, with SSJ transformations can go!

SSJ Kid Goku vs BoZ Goku
SSJ2 Kid Goku vs a lone Saibamen
SSJ3 Kid Goku vs Nappa
SSJ4 Kid Goku vs Nail
SSJG Kid Goku vs Namek Freeza
SSJB Kid Goku vs Android 18
Kaio-ken x20 SSJB Kid Goku vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan
UIO Kid Goku vs Fat Boo
MUI Kid Goku vs SSJ Gotenks
In the first chapter of DB, Goku's power level is 10. What the heck is BoZ Goku? Did you mean Goku at the beginning of DBZ vs Raditz?

SSJ Kid Goku (10x50 = 500) vs DBZ Goku (924 max when charging Kamehameha) - DBZ Goku wins
SSJ2 Kid Goku (10x100=1000) vs Saibaman (1200) - Saibaman wins
SSJ3 Kid Goku (10x400=4000) vs Nappa (4000) - Nappa wins due to more fighting experience.
SSJ4 Kid Goku vs Nail (42,000) - Depends on the multiplier for SSJ4.
[spoiler]The multiplier for SSJ4 is unknown but it would be greater than SSJ3. The Golden Oozaru which is essentially an Oozaru in SSJ is 500x (10x50). Then if after controlling the Golden Oozaru into a humanoid form, you get SSJ4 ~ 10x Golden Oozaru or 5000x Base. Hence, SSJ4 Kid Goku = 10x5000=50,000 > Nail (42,000). Then Kid Goku wins.[/spoiler]
SSG Kid Goku vs Namek Freeza (120 million) - Freeza wins, but depends on multiplier for SSG
[spoiler]Even if you gave SSG a multiplier of 11 million, it wouldn't be enough. We only know that SSG > SSJ3 Vegito and Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku.
Base Vegito > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga)
Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7 confirmed, post Buu saga, pre BoG) - while not canon, Movie 13 also shows SSJ3 Goku surpassed Gohan and Gotenks.
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku (~50% stronger)
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
SSG > SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.66x SSJ3 Vegito (5/3% or 66.67% stronger)
SSG > 1.66x 400x 1.5x 400x Base Goku
SSG > 398,400x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku
This is also why SSG Beat from DBH is not impressive at all.[/spoiler]
SSB Kid Goku vs Android 18 - Android 18 wins
[spoiler]SSG > 10% SSB, so SSB ~ 10x SSG as per manga. We know Android 18 > Freeza (120 million). If you agree with the above calculation for SSG multiplier, then SSB Kid Goku = 10x 400,000x 10 = 40 million < still below Freeza 120 million.[/spoiler]
Kaio-ken x20 SSJB Kid Goku vs SSJ2 Kid Gohan - Kid Goku wins
[spoiler]We calcualted SSB Kid Goku = 40 million, so SSB Kid Goku + 20x Kaioken = 40 million x20 = 800 million. Assuming you mean Kid Gohan and not Teen Gohan from Cell Games, then the last recorded official power level of Gohan from Freeza saga is 200,000 from V-Jump. Therefore, SSJ2 Kid Gohan = 200,000 x 100 = 20 million.[/spoiler]
UIO Kid Goku vs Fat Boo - Kid Goku wins, but depends on multiplier for UIO
[spoiler]UIO is at the level of Hakaishin while MIO is above Hakaishin. However, that also depends on the base. Kid Goku's base is only 10. If you give MIO a 50 billion multiplier, then MIO Kid Goku = 50 billion x10 = 500 billion. Fat Boo ~ SSJ3 Goku level. Let's say SSJ Goku (Buu saga) ~ 10x SSJ Goku (Freeza). Then SSJ Goku (Buu saga) = 10x 150 million = 1.5 billion. Then SSJ3 Goku = 8x SSJ Goku = 12 billion.[/spoiler]
MUI Kid Goku vs SSJ Gotenks - Kid Goku wins, but depends on multiplier for UIO
[spoiler]SSJ Gotenks (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga). Let's say SSJ Gotenks > 1.25x SSJ3 Goku. Based on above calculation then SSJ Gotenks ~ 1.25x 12 billion = 15 billion. Still below MUI level.[/spoiler]
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:40 am

PFM18 wrote:
BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
Toppo pretty comfortably.

Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
SSBE Vegeta(post boost vs Toppo)vs SSJ2 Kefla
Anilaza vs Merged Zamasu
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza
1. Vegito
[spoiler]Even if you use anime logic, the fight between Vegeta vs Cabba in the U6 arc can be interpreted as Vegeta holding back. Cabba looks up to Vegeta as a mentor. Vegeta is trying to teach Cabba. He took hits on purpose even after Cabba turned SSJ and then he smiled. Forget Vegito (Buu Saga), I don't even see Base Cabba beating SSJ2 Teen Gohan let alone SSJ Teen Gohan from Cell Games. Do not tell me that Cabba's base is equal to Vegeta's. There is no proof of that except someone's interpretation from that one battle. As I said before, Vegeta held back. This also goes back to the whole Base = SSG thing because of the messed up scene in BoG anime and movie with SSJ Goku fighting Beerus in space. I stand firm based on the consistency shown in the later episodes as well as in the manga, that Base Vegeta (U6 arc) < SSG Goku (BoG). There is no absorbing of SSG into base or the saiyan beyond god.[/spoiler]
2. Piccolo
[spoiler]The reason for this is because Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu. Piccolo trained with Gohan until he reached Ultimate again. Then he sparred with him frequently to help Gohan surpass Ultimate even further than what he had in the Buu saga.[/spoiler]
3. Ginyu
[spoiler]Roshi has gotten stronger definitely. His last official power level was 180. Roshi has been training in secret. We know this because Goku felt it. He's still weaker than other Earthlings like Krillin and Tenshinhan. Krillin got his potential unlocked by Guru, had several fights during the Freeza saga, trained further during the Cell Games. His last official power level was 75,000. Roshi is not beyond 75,000. Ginyu's max was 120,000.[/spoiler]
4. Kid Buu
[spoiler]Yes, we saw Tagoma train with Freeza to get a body of "steel". Cold told Freeza to fear two people - Buu and Beerus. Tagoma was a Freeza soldier weaker than Ginyu. He got significantly stronger after training with Freeza, but to say that he's at Kid Buu level? The SSJ Gohan that fought him in the anime and movie, was severely weakened. That SSJ Gohan was even weaker than SSJ Teen Gohan from Cell Games. Gohan said himself that Tagoma was hiding power and that he may be at the same level as him when Gohan was at the top of his game. Gohan had trouble just turning into a SSJ and couldn't even access most of his power. Acknowleding SSJ3 Gotenks headbutted him in the balls, that was enough to make him kneel. That is until Ginyu took his body and then things changed. That was more of a comedy gag anyways. Kid Buu who can regenerate himself over and over, would still win a fight.[/spoiler]
5. SSBE Vegeta
[spoiler]Kefla fought a weakened and beaten Goku that was already exhausted from his fight with Jiren. He was slowly recovering and was surviving on the little energy that Freeza gave him. He was able to turn SSB eventually but it was definitely not the full power of SSB. Champa and Vados both were worried when Goku went SSB and this was after Kefla. SSBE Vegeta is essentially the equivalent of Goku's SSB Kaioken x20. Two Saiyans that have never gotten any god ki or SSG, even as a fused character should not overpower SSBE Vegeta. Goku himself stated during BoG that fusion would not beat Beerus, meaning that even SSJ3 Vegito would not be enough and hence, implies that SSG > SSJ3 Vegito. Now of course, Kale is a x-factor with her Berserk form which makes BSSJ2 Kefla > SSJ3 Vegito (Buu Saga), but it is still not enough to eclipse SSG level. Again, the Goku that fought Kefla was severely weakened. I'm still waiting to see the same fight in the manga and see how it goes.[/spoiler]
6. Anilaza
[spoiler]We've only seen Anilaza in the anime, so that's all I have to go by. Obviously, it took 2 SSBs, Android 17, Golden Freeza doing their strongest attacks and Anilaza was still overpowering them until 17 took out his core. Merged Zamasu was strong but not that strong. Toriyama said himself in an interview that 2 SSBs should have been enough for Merged Zamasu, but because of Toyotaro's suggestion and because of fan service, he allowed for Vegito to occur. In the manga, MSSB Goku is already beating Merged Zamasu.[/spoiler]
7. Freeza 3rd Form
[spoiler]Tenshinhan after training with King Kai got stronger, but he was obviously weaker than Piccolo who beat all of them by himself. This was filler, but still. Piccolo stood no chance against Freeza until he fused with Nail, which skyrocketed his power level past 1 million. This is the only reason Piccolo could fight Freeza 2nd form and even beat him after he removed his weighted clothing. Third form Freeza annihilated Piccolo however. Tenshinhan did do some more training in the Cell Saga. He was able to use a Kihoho that held of Semi-Perfect Cell. This Kihoho however, was essentially using up all his Genki (vitality) to hold him off. It wasn't doing any damage.[/spoiler]
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:35 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
Toppo pretty comfortably.

Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
SSBE Vegeta(post boost vs Toppo)vs SSJ2 Kefla
Anilaza vs Merged Zamasu
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza
1. Vegito
[spoiler]Even if you use anime logic, the fight between Vegeta vs Cabba in the U6 arc can be interpreted as Vegeta holding back. Cabba looks up to Vegeta as a mentor. Vegeta is trying to teach Cabba. He took hits on purpose even after Cabba turned SSJ and then he smiled. Forget Vegito (Buu Saga), I don't even see Base Cabba beating SSJ2 Teen Gohan let alone SSJ Teen Gohan from Cell Games. Do not tell me that Cabba's base is equal to Vegeta's. There is no proof of that except someone's interpretation from that one battle. As I said before, Vegeta held back. This also goes back to the whole Base = SSG thing because of the messed up scene in BoG anime and movie with SSJ Goku fighting Beerus in space. I stand firm based on the consistency shown in the later episodes as well as in the manga, that Base Vegeta (U6 arc) < SSG Goku (BoG). There is no absorbing of SSG into base or the saiyan beyond god.[/spoiler]
Vegeta literally said in the anime that their bases are completely evenly matched during their first encounter in the universe 6 arc.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Also, I agree with you that base Cabba wouldn't in a million years, as of the TOP, be able to even slightly annoy Super Vegetto.
I think he would still be fodderized by Super Vegetto, even with his SS2.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 am

JazzMazz wrote:Vegeta literally said in the anime that their bases are completely evenly matched during their first encounter in the universe 6 arc.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Also, I agree with you that base Cabba wouldn't in a million years, as of the TOP, be able to even slightly annoy Super Vegetto.
I think he would still be fodderized by Super Vegetto, even with his SS2.
I know what was said in the anime, but Vegeta could have just been pretending. Cabba was using tactics and good technique to surprise Vegeta. He used sunlight to blind him and did a lot of things. Then Vegeta smiled and kicked Cabba. Cabba was then holding his injured arm while Vegeta was standing like if he didn't take any damage at all. In the manga, the exact same scene, Chapter 12, Page 7, Vegeta says, "It appears you're quite accustomed to real combat..you do the greatest race of warriors, the saiysns, proud. In your normal state, you should be able to hold your own against me." It doesn't still doesn't mean that Base Cabba = Base Vegeta. It means that Cabba is able to hold his own in combat due to tactics. Vegeta wanted to see Cabba go SSJ and then he ended up training him. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't have beaten Cabba in base already. He was showing off to Cabba. Also, if you want to use the Potafu arc to say that Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, I will agree with that. I will even agree that Base Cabba > SSJ3 Gotenks, but not Vegito.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:45 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Vegeta literally said in the anime that their bases are completely evenly matched during their first encounter in the universe 6 arc.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Also, I agree with you that base Cabba wouldn't in a million years, as of the TOP, be able to even slightly annoy Super Vegetto.
I think he would still be fodderized by Super Vegetto, even with his SS2.
I know what was said in the anime, but Vegeta could have just been pretending. Cabba was using tactics and good technique to surprise Vegeta. He used sunlight to blind him and did a lot of things. Then Vegeta smiled and kicked Cabba. Cabba was then holding his injured arm while Vegeta was standing like if he didn't take any damage at all. In the manga, the exact same scene, Chapter 12, Page 7, Vegeta says, "It appears you're quite accustomed to real combat..you do the greatest race of warriors, the saiysns, proud. In your normal state, you should be able to hold your own against me." It doesn't still doesn't mean that Base Cabba = Base Vegeta. It means that Cabba is able to hold his own in combat due to tactics. Vegeta wanted to see Cabba go SSJ and then he ended up training him. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't have beaten Cabba in base already. He was showing off to Cabba. Also, if you want to use the Potafu arc to say that Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, I will agree with that. I will even agree that Base Cabba > SSJ3 Gotenks, but not Vegito.
I think that is quite possibly the dumbest rationalizing of head canon I've ever seen. Cabba is equal to Vegeta's. It is literally stated in both versions, without a hint of irony. It is literally the writers telling us, fairly blatantly "at this point, Vegeta's regular form is equal to Cabba's".

Hell, in the anime, it doesn't even make any sense for Vegeta to bullshitting when he says that, since his literally only talking to himself. So yes, when Vegeta is clearly stating that he is roughly equal to Cabba in his base form, he means it. He has no reason at all to bullshit.

Also, I don't think that any of the base Saiyans are even remotely comparable to SS3 Gotenks in their base forms, I think it was just a one off thing for a filler arc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:29 am

JazzMazz wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Vegeta literally said in the anime that their bases are completely evenly matched during their first encounter in the universe 6 arc.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
Also, I agree with you that base Cabba wouldn't in a million years, as of the TOP, be able to even slightly annoy Super Vegetto.
I think he would still be fodderized by Super Vegetto, even with his SS2.
I know what was said in the anime, but Vegeta could have just been pretending. Cabba was using tactics and good technique to surprise Vegeta. He used sunlight to blind him and did a lot of things. Then Vegeta smiled and kicked Cabba. Cabba was then holding his injured arm while Vegeta was standing like if he didn't take any damage at all. In the manga, the exact same scene, Chapter 12, Page 7, Vegeta says, "It appears you're quite accustomed to real combat..you do the greatest race of warriors, the saiysns, proud. In your normal state, you should be able to hold your own against me." It doesn't still doesn't mean that Base Cabba = Base Vegeta. It means that Cabba is able to hold his own in combat due to tactics. Vegeta wanted to see Cabba go SSJ and then he ended up training him. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't have beaten Cabba in base already. He was showing off to Cabba. Also, if you want to use the Potafu arc to say that Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, I will agree with that. I will even agree that Base Cabba > SSJ3 Gotenks, but not Vegito.
I think that is quite possibly the dumbest rationalizing of head canon I've ever seen. Cabba is equal to Vegeta's. It is literally stated in both versions, without a hint of irony. It is literally the writers telling us, fairly blatantly "at this point, Vegeta's regular form is equal to Cabba's".

Hell, in the anime, it doesn't even make any sense for Vegeta to bullshitting when he says that, since his literally only talking to himself. So yes, when Vegeta is clearly stating that he is roughly equal to Cabba in his base form, he means it. He has no reason at all to bullshit.

Also, I don't think that any of the base Saiyans are even remotely comparable to SS3 Gotenks in their base forms, I think it was just a one off thing for a filler arc.
I agree Cabba and Vegeta were definitely evenly matched in base in both iterations of the fight. However, you don't have to be so rude. That is very unecessary.

As far as the base Saiyans and SSJ3 Gotenks, the series quite literally gives a laundry list of evidence that they can dominate anything from the Buu Arc, especially by the time of the ToP. There's no indication that Base Vegeta/Goku>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a one off thing.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:35 am

PFM18 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote: I know what was said in the anime, but Vegeta could have just been pretending. Cabba was using tactics and good technique to surprise Vegeta. He used sunlight to blind him and did a lot of things. Then Vegeta smiled and kicked Cabba. Cabba was then holding his injured arm while Vegeta was standing like if he didn't take any damage at all. In the manga, the exact same scene, Chapter 12, Page 7, Vegeta says, "It appears you're quite accustomed to real combat..you do the greatest race of warriors, the saiysns, proud. In your normal state, you should be able to hold your own against me." It doesn't still doesn't mean that Base Cabba = Base Vegeta. It means that Cabba is able to hold his own in combat due to tactics. Vegeta wanted to see Cabba go SSJ and then he ended up training him. It doesn't mean that Vegeta couldn't have beaten Cabba in base already. He was showing off to Cabba. Also, if you want to use the Potafu arc to say that Base Vegeta > SSJ3 Gotenks, I will agree with that. I will even agree that Base Cabba > SSJ3 Gotenks, but not Vegito.
I think that is quite possibly the dumbest rationalizing of head canon I've ever seen. Cabba is equal to Vegeta's. It is literally stated in both versions, without a hint of irony. It is literally the writers telling us, fairly blatantly "at this point, Vegeta's regular form is equal to Cabba's".

Hell, in the anime, it doesn't even make any sense for Vegeta to bullshitting when he says that, since his literally only talking to himself. So yes, when Vegeta is clearly stating that he is roughly equal to Cabba in his base form, he means it. He has no reason at all to bullshit.

Also, I don't think that any of the base Saiyans are even remotely comparable to SS3 Gotenks in their base forms, I think it was just a one off thing for a filler arc.
I agree Cabba and Vegeta were definitely evenly matched in base in both iterations of the fight. However, you don't have to be so rude. That is very unecessary.

As far as the base Saiyans and SSJ3 Gotenks, the series quite literally gives a laundry list of evidence that they can dominate anything from the Buu Arc, especially by the time of the ToP. There's no indication that Base Vegeta/Goku>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a one off thing.
Sorry about, I just found it to be exaltingly stupid to just ignore something that was obviously stated, just because.

As for the base Saiyan thing, not really. Outside of that filler, the TOP mainly has our heroes fighting evenly, or at a greater pace with characters who would only rank in the lowest tiered powers of the Buu arc, much less being on SS3 Gotenks level. Seriously, are you guys forgetting Basil? He was more than capable of fighting Goku and Vegeta in their base forms with little problem(although I would say that he was still weaker than Goku and Vegeta), and he was merely fodder in comparison to good Buu, who is considerably weaker than SS3 Goku in the Buu arc, much less SS3 Gotenk's.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:47 am

JazzMazz wrote: I think that is quite possibly the dumbest rationalizing of head canon I've ever seen. Cabba is equal to Vegeta's. It is literally stated in both versions, without a hint of irony. It is literally the writers telling us, fairly blatantly "at this point, Vegeta's regular form is equal to Cabba's".

Hell, in the anime, it doesn't even make any sense for Vegeta to bullshitting when he says that, since his literally only talking to himself. So yes, when Vegeta is clearly stating that he is roughly equal to Cabba in his base form, he means it. He has no reason at all to bullshit.

Also, I don't think that any of the base Saiyans are even remotely comparable to SS3 Gotenks in their base forms, I think it was just a one off thing for a filler arc.
JazzMazz wrote:Sorry about, I just found it to be exaltingly stupid to just ignore something that was obviously stated, just because.

As for the base Saiyan thing, not really. Outside of that filler, the TOP mainly has our heroes fighting evenly, or at a greater pace with characters who would only rank in the lowest tiered powers of the Buu arc, much less being on SS3 Gotenks level. Seriously, are you guys forgetting Basil? He was more than capable of fighting Goku and Vegeta in their base forms with little problem(although I would say that he was still weaker than Goku and Vegeta), and he was merely fodder in comparison to good Buu, who is considerably weaker than SS3 Goku in the Buu arc, much less SS3 Gotenk's.
There are ways to get your point across without insulting, but I digress. So we aren't ever allowed to even think at the remote possibility that what characters say in an anime and what actually is may be different? Burter said he's the fastest person in the universe. Watching the anime episode when Burter said that without knowing anything past that point, would you take his words literally? He's got no reason to be lying right? Vegeta was surprised at Cabba's combat ability and tactics. He was caught off guard and then praised Cabba that he could keep up in his base. Vegeta smiled and did one kick which was already enough to make Cabba hold his injured arm. All the strikes Cabba did to Vegeta in the end, did nothing. Vegeta was just standing. Vegeta wanted to teach Cabba and then went on to SSJ. He didn't need to go SSJ to beat Cabba. Do you really believe if the fight went on, Vegeta would not have won in his base?

If you believe the Basil fight, then Basil < Fat Boo. Fat Boo hasn't undergone any training since the Buu arc, so Fat Boo < SSJ3 Goku. So for my next versus,

Base Cabba (U6 arc) vs Basil (ToP)
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:14 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I think that is quite possibly the dumbest rationalizing of head canon I've ever seen. Cabba is equal to Vegeta's. It is literally stated in both versions, without a hint of irony. It is literally the writers telling us, fairly blatantly "at this point, Vegeta's regular form is equal to Cabba's".

Hell, in the anime, it doesn't even make any sense for Vegeta to bullshitting when he says that, since his literally only talking to himself. So yes, when Vegeta is clearly stating that he is roughly equal to Cabba in his base form, he means it. He has no reason at all to bullshit.

Also, I don't think that any of the base Saiyans are even remotely comparable to SS3 Gotenks in their base forms, I think it was just a one off thing for a filler arc.
JazzMazz wrote:Sorry about, I just found it to be exaltingly stupid to just ignore something that was obviously stated, just because.

As for the base Saiyan thing, not really. Outside of that filler, the TOP mainly has our heroes fighting evenly, or at a greater pace with characters who would only rank in the lowest tiered powers of the Buu arc, much less being on SS3 Gotenks level. Seriously, are you guys forgetting Basil? He was more than capable of fighting Goku and Vegeta in their base forms with little problem(although I would say that he was still weaker than Goku and Vegeta), and he was merely fodder in comparison to good Buu, who is considerably weaker than SS3 Goku in the Buu arc, much less SS3 Gotenk's.
There are ways to get your point across without insulting, but I digress. So we aren't ever allowed to even think at the remote possibility that what characters say in an anime and what actually is may be different? Burter said he's the fastest person in the universe. Watching the anime episode when Burter said that without knowing anything past that point, would you take his words literally? He's got no reason to be lying right? Vegeta was surprised at Cabba's combat ability and tactics. He was caught off guard and then praised Cabba that he could keep up in his base. Vegeta smiled and did one kick which was already enough to make Cabba hold his injured arm. All the strikes Cabba did to Vegeta in the end, did nothing. Vegeta was just standing. Vegeta wanted to teach Cabba and then went on to SSJ. He didn't need to go SSJ to beat Cabba. Do you really believe if the fight went on, Vegeta would not have won in his base?

If you believe the Basil fight, then Basil < Fat Boo. Fat Boo hasn't undergone any training since the Buu arc, so Fat Boo < SSJ3 Goku. So for my next versus,

Base Cabba (U6 arc) vs Basil (ToP)
I think your avoiding the context of Vegeta's statement in the arc. In the anime more so than the manga, his statement is clearly him assessing his opponents strength. He has literally no reason to lie to himself about Cabba's strength. In the anime especially it would be the equivalent of Vegeta saying "His good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form(JK lol)." It simply doesn't make any sense in context for Vegeta to be lying to himself about Cabba's capabilities.
As for Vegeta winning merely using his base, I think it would be, as Vegeta said, a pretty tough battle in that arc. He probably could edge out a victory though, I would say only just.

As for Basil vs Base Cabba, I think it would be pretty even. Using only his base form, I think the fight could probably go either way, though I would guess it would favour Basil generally. I think Cabba would need Super Saiyan to absolutely guarantee his victory.

I apoligize if I came off as insulting at points, I'm just an overtly blunt person, and I can get pretty petulant.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:56 am

BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
Sooo difficult to say, thanks to Super being a mess.

I mean, Ssj Rosè Black (schyte) was superior to Goku and Vegeta, but the Saiyans managed to hurt Merged Zamasu, who himself should be leagues above Black.
So confusing.

Anyway, I don't think Toppo has what it takes to beat Ssj Rosè Black Goku.
PFM18 wrote: Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
SSBE Vegeta(post boost vs Toppo)vs SSJ2 Kefla
Anilaza vs Merged Zamasu
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza
- Even Fat Buu could stomp Base Cabba. Vegetto could kill him in two seconds.
- Piccolo trained Gohan to help him regain the power he had during his fight with Buu. He also believes that that power (of course Gohan becomes stronger, but still) is crucial to win the Tournament. This makes it clear: Piccolo is nowhere near any version of Majin Buu.
- Ginyu, unless Roshi become +100,000 stronger by doing nothing.
- Tagoma might be able to fight evenly with Perfect Cell... he doesn't go any further.
- Vegeta stomps.
- Merged Zamasu in a blink of an eye. Anilaza is slightly better than a Ssj Blue, but Zamasu's on a whole different level, especially if you mean his Corrupted version.
- Freeza easily.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:02 am

JazzMazz wrote: I think your avoiding the context of Vegeta's statement in the arc. In the anime more so than the manga, his statement is clearly him assessing his opponents strength. He has literally no reason to lie to himself about Cabba's strength. In the anime especially it would be the equivalent of Vegeta saying "His good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form(JK lol)." It simply doesn't make any sense in context for Vegeta to be lying to himself about Cabba's capabilities.
As for Vegeta winning merely using his base, I think it would be, as Vegeta said, a pretty tough battle in that arc. He probably could edge out a victory though, I would say only just.

As for Basil vs Base Cabba, I think it would be pretty even. Using only his base form, I think the fight could probably go either way, though I would guess it would favour Basil generally. I think Cabba would need Super Saiyan to absolutely guarantee his victory.

I apoligize if I came off as insulting at points, I'm just an overtly blunt person, and I can get pretty petulant.
It's ok. If you watch Episode 37, Cabba runs out of breath shortly after 1 kick by Vegeta (8:35 of the Episode). Then Vegeta says, "Out of stamina already?" Cabba then proceeds to do the Galick Gun which Vegeta is surprised about. Then at 9:12 of the episode is when Vegeta states, "Not bad, in normal form, we're evenly matched", referring to their beam struggle. It's not clear whether or not Vegeta is using his full power for that Galick Gun. What makes you believe that Vegeta is saying this to himself as opposed to out loud? His mouth is covered by the Galick Gun so you can't see it moving until 9:17 where he is actually speaking to Cabba, saying "It doesn't seem like this match will end quickly", implying that Cabba is stronger than he had initially took him for. Cabba is sweating at this time. In addition, the exact same scene depicted in the manga, Vegeta is talking to Cabba not thinking to himself. Note that this Cabba's most likely strongest attack in his arsenal and Vegeta is smiling using his own Galick Gun. After this Galick Gun beam struggle, Vegeta says, "Let's get serious now". Then at 10:29, Vegeta with his arms folded powers up to send air ripples on the ground. He's pissed that Cabba is begging him to teach how to turn into a SSJ in the middle of a battle. With all that information, do you really believe that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba or that Base Vegeta > Base Cabba, but that Cabba is a decent fighter that Vegeta acknowledges?

According to you, SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga) > Fat Buu > Basil > Base Cabba.
However, you believe Base Vegeta (U6 arc) = Base Cabba (U6 arc)
Yet, this debate started with Base Cabba vs Vegito (Buu arc). I stated Vegito would still win. You said current Vegito would win but not past Vegito. Is this correct?
Zamasu55 wrote:
BlueVegerot wrote:SS Rose Black (anime) vs Base Toppo (anime)?
SS Rose Black would win. Unlike the anime that is confusing, the exhibition match in the manga did show us more. Toppo rose to god level. Goku went SSB. Toppo himself stated that if he did not dodge Goku's punch at the last second, he would have been the winner. Goku lost because he let his guard down, which he has a habit of doing. In terms of sheer power, the SSB / SSR are superior to where Base Toppo is at. Hakaishin Toppo of course would beat it though.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:22 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: I think your avoiding the context of Vegeta's statement in the arc. In the anime more so than the manga, his statement is clearly him assessing his opponents strength. He has literally no reason to lie to himself about Cabba's strength. In the anime especially it would be the equivalent of Vegeta saying "His good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form(JK lol)." It simply doesn't make any sense in context for Vegeta to be lying to himself about Cabba's capabilities.
As for Vegeta winning merely using his base, I think it would be, as Vegeta said, a pretty tough battle in that arc. He probably could edge out a victory though, I would say only just.

As for Basil vs Base Cabba, I think it would be pretty even. Using only his base form, I think the fight could probably go either way, though I would guess it would favour Basil generally. I think Cabba would need Super Saiyan to absolutely guarantee his victory.

I apoligize if I came off as insulting at points, I'm just an overtly blunt person, and I can get pretty petulant.
It's ok. If you watch Episode 37, Cabba runs out of breath shortly after 1 kick by Vegeta (8:35 of the Episode). Then Vegeta says, "Out of stamina already?" Cabba then proceeds to do the Galick Gun which Vegeta is surprised about. Then at 9:12 of the episode is when Vegeta states, "Not bad, in normal form, we're evenly matched", referring to their beam struggle. It's not clear whether or not Vegeta is using his full power for that Galick Gun. What makes you believe that Vegeta is saying this to himself as opposed to out loud? His mouth is covered by the Galick Gun so you can't see it moving until 9:17 where he is actually speaking to Cabba, saying "It doesn't seem like this match will end quickly", implying that Cabba is stronger than he had initially took him for. Cabba is sweating at this time. In addition, the exact same scene depicted in the manga, Vegeta is talking to Cabba not thinking to himself. Note that this Cabba's most likely strongest attack in his arsenal and Vegeta is smiling using his own Galick Gun. After this Galick Gun beam struggle, Vegeta says, "Let's get serious now". Then at 10:29, Vegeta with his arms folded powers up to send air ripples on the ground. He's pissed that Cabba is begging him to teach how to turn into a SSJ in the middle of a battle. With all that information, do you really believe that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba or that Base Vegeta > Base Cabba, but that Cabba is a decent fighter that Vegeta acknowledges?

According to you, SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga) > Fat Buu > Basil > Base Cabba.
However, Base Vegeta (U6 arc) = Base Cabba (U6 arc), am I correct?
Yet, this debate started with Base Cabba vs Vegito (Buu arc). I stated Vegito would still win. You said current Vegito would win but not past Vegito.
Yes, Vegeta is speaking out loud, but its simply him vocalizing his internal thoughts. So yes, what his saying is also what his actually thinking. Also, again, his not referring to anyone in that scene in the anime. For example, when his saying "It doesn't seem like this match will end quickly", his not actually talking to Cabba, his still just vocalising his own thoughts. Its a pretty common writing practise in anime.

Thought you could claim its certainly more ambiguous whether Vegeta meant what he said in the manga(even though I still don't think there is since Vegeta was still completely unable to make any lasting damage during that initial struggle), I don't think there is really any room for doubt in the anime's interpretation of events, which had them be dead even during that struggle.

I was referring to Cabba's current strength, when I said as of the TOP. To clarify, I was saying, Cabba, from the TOP, wouldn't stand a chance against SS Vegetto from the Buu arc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:37 am

JazzMazz wrote:Yes, Vegeta is speaking out loud, but its simply him vocalizing his internal thoughts. So yes, what his saying is also what his actually thinking. Also, again, his not referring to anyone in that scene in the anime. For example, when his saying "It doesn't seem like this match will end quickly", his not actually talking to Cabba, his still just vocalising his own thoughts. Its a pretty common writing practise in anime.

Thought you could claim its certainly more ambiguous whether Vegeta meant what he said in the manga(even though I still don't think there is since Vegeta was still completely unable to make any lasting damage during that initial struggle), I don't think there is really any room for doubt in the anime's interpretation of events, which had them be dead even during that struggle.

I was referring to Cabba's current strength, when I said as of the TOP. To clarify, I was saying, Cabba, from the TOP, wouldn't stand a chance against SS Vegetto from the Buu arc.
I think it's an assumption to say that Vegeta is vocalizing his thoughts. Regardless, we established that Vegeta isn't thinking and that he is in fact speaking to Cabba. This is only referring to the beam struggle of the galick gun which was equal, however to say that their base strengths are equal contradicts what happened earlier. We don't even know if Vegeta is using the full power of his Galick Gun. Cabba ran out of breath after 1 kick. SSJ is a multiplier of base strength. So if SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba, then by logic, Base Vegeta > Base Cabba.

If you are saying that SSJ Vegito > Cabba (ToP), then we agree. You also agree that:
SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga) > Fat Buu > Basil > Cabba

but we disagree that:
Base Vegeta (U6 arc) > Base Cabba (U6 arc)

At the same time, I certainly believe that SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta.

Not counting the Potafu arc (I also consider it a filler, so let's ignore it), Base Vegeta defeated Ginyu in Tagoma's body with 1 blast while SSJ3 Gotenks headbutted Tagoma in the balls prior. Just from this feat alone, do you think think that Base Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga)?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:Base Cabba vs Buu Arc Super Vegetto
Cabba stomps. Sure, Vegeta wasn't going all out on him on the anime nor in the manga, but i find doubtful he held back by several folds. Manga is more debeatable, but i'm willing to say Cabba wins here too.
Piccolo(ToP) vs Super Buu
U6 Piccolo was already blocking punches from a weakened Frost who Vegeta needed to go Super Saiyan in order to one shot. Even Gohan-Boo gets crushed by Piccolo.
Roshi(ToP) vs Captain Ginyu
Probably Roshi. Don't see Ginyu blocking hits from Frost here, even if he was holding back.
Tagoma vs Kid Buu
Boo one shots. Ginyu Tagoma, who was considerably stronger than Tagoma, was easily taken down in two blows by a Gohan weaker than his Cell Games self. Probably even weaker than his Boo Arc self. Someone like SSJG2 Vegeta or Warm up Cell would be a better match IMO.
Tien Android Arc vs Namek 3rd form Freeza
Tenshinhan was considered good energy by #20, who's far stronger than 100% Freeza. Tenshinhan is probably on the same league as Kaioken x10 Goku.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:07 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Yes, Vegeta is speaking out loud, but its simply him vocalizing his internal thoughts. So yes, what his saying is also what his actually thinking. Also, again, his not referring to anyone in that scene in the anime. For example, when his saying "It doesn't seem like this match will end quickly", his not actually talking to Cabba, his still just vocalising his own thoughts. Its a pretty common writing practise in anime.

Thought you could claim its certainly more ambiguous whether Vegeta meant what he said in the manga(even though I still don't think there is since Vegeta was still completely unable to make any lasting damage during that initial struggle), I don't think there is really any room for doubt in the anime's interpretation of events, which had them be dead even during that struggle.

I was referring to Cabba's current strength, when I said as of the TOP. To clarify, I was saying, Cabba, from the TOP, wouldn't stand a chance against SS Vegetto from the Buu arc.
I think it's an assumption to say that Vegeta is vocalizing his thoughts. Regardless, we established that Vegeta isn't thinking and that he is in fact speaking to Cabba. This is only referring to the beam struggle of the galick gun which was equal, however to say that their base strengths are equal contradicts what happened earlier. We don't even know if Vegeta is using the full power of his Galick Gun. Cabba ran out of breath after 1 kick. SSJ is a multiplier of base strength. So if SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba, then by logic, Base Vegeta > Base Cabba.

If you are saying that SSJ Vegito > Cabba (ToP), then we agree. You also agree that:
SSJ3 Goku (Buu saga) > Fat Buu > Basil > Cabba

but we disagree that:
Base Vegeta (U6 arc) > Base Cabba (U6 arc)

At the same time, I certainly believe that SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta.

Not counting the Potafu arc (I also consider it a filler, so let's ignore it), Base Vegeta defeated Ginyu in Tagoma's body with 1 blast while SSJ3 Gotenks headbutted Tagoma in the balls prior. Just from this feat alone, do you think think that Base Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga)?
Well, the context and language used in that scene certainly suggests his not referring to anyone but himself. His not talking to Cabba, otherwise he wouldn't be use say "his", its never signalled that his drawing his comment towards the bystanders, because the anime goes out of its way to present that by having Vegeta usually turn and speak the bystanders, directly referencing them, so considering conventions that are common in DB and anime in general, the only logical person he is referring to in the anime at least, when he is diagnosing Cabba's strength, is himself.
Also, the only saying stuff that contradicts what happens in the story, is yourself at this point, by looking far too deep into scenes, and blatantly disregarding clarifying information, that the story presents us with.

We know, how these characters compare to each at that state at that time, because we given that information from Vegeta, who is at that time, a reliable narrator for that information.

Though you could make arguments about whether Vegeta had maybe a negligible advantage in power over Cabba in his regular state, Vegeta, a narrator who we can trust at this time, makes it clear to us that they are basically dead even, and a continued battle in those forms would be rough him.

Gotenks never foughts Tagoma for any measurable period of time, and even then, his brief encounter with Tagoma only occurred while he was simply a mere Super Saiyan. SS3 Gotenks didn't appear in that arc at all.
However, I will say Tagoma's performance against a rusty SS Gohan only further goes to suggest that Goku and Vegeta don't need to be that much more powerful than even Cell saga level characters in their base form during that time.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:25 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:- Even Fat Buu could stomp Base Cabba. Vegetto could kill him in two seconds.
- Piccolo trained Gohan to help him regain the power he had during his fight with Buu. He also believes that that power (of course Gohan becomes stronger, but still) is crucial to win the Tournament. This makes it clear: Piccolo is nowhere near any version of Majin Buu.
- Ginyu, unless Roshi become +100,000 stronger by doing nothing.
- Tagoma might be able to fight evenly with Perfect Cell... he doesn't go any further.
- Vegeta stomps.
- Merged Zamasu in a blink of an eye. Anilaza is slightly better than a Ssj Blue, but Zamasu's on a whole different level, especially if you mean his Corrupted version.
- Freeza easily.
Fat Buu stomping Cabba?? Cabba fought evenly with Vegeta during the U6 arc. Anybody in the Buu arc other than SSJ Vegetto would be one shot without an issue.(Buuhan included)
The "power" Gohan had against Buu was established to be referring to the transformation of "Ultimate" and Gohan reachieved it. It did not literally correspond to the level of power he had in the Buu Arc.
I agree
Tagoma was far stronger than Piccolo during this time and he atleast competed with Gohan to some extent, he would one shot Perfect Cell.
If Anilaza was only slightly better than a SSJ Blue then he wouldn't have been able to take on 5 SSB level characters simultaneously. That makes no sense

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