Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Champa The Destroyer wrote:Strongest character Xeno Goku (the game version) can beat? I don't know much about Heroes but heard crazy things like him stopping Demigra (who was threatening all 12 universes and the real world) in Base/SS1.
Right, I don’t actually know much about Heroes, but just seeing what other people have posted on this forum and on the internet I might have a rough idea where he lies.
I’ve heard that he’s around equal to a SSJ4 Broly with Time breaker mask and a Dark dragonball. GT SSJ4’s were weaker than basic SSJ4 Broly. Also Xeno Goku lost to post ToP SSJB Goku and stated that he’s a step above him.
So in the heroes continuity it looks like this (I think) SSJB Goku > Xeno SSJ4 Goku = Tbm w/Ddb SSJ4 Broly > SSJ4 Broly > GT SSJ4 Goku
I’m sure that’s basically what I’ve seen people say here and around the internet.
Agreed, but is the Heroes version of SSB Goku the same Goku as the one in Super? I know that he is post TOP, but is he from an alternate timeline from the "actual" Goku? If so, how do they compare to the characters in Super?
Champa The Destroyer wrote:Strongest character Xeno Goku (the game version) can beat? I don't know much about Heroes but heard crazy things like him stopping Demigra (who was threatening all 12 universes and the real world) in Base/SS1.
Right, I don’t actually know much about Heroes, but just seeing what other people have posted on this forum and on the internet I might have a rough idea where he lies.
I’ve heard that he’s around equal to a SSJ4 Broly with Time breaker mask and a Dark dragonball. GT SSJ4’s were weaker than basic SSJ4 Broly. Also Xeno Goku lost to post ToP SSJB Goku and stated that he’s a step above him.
So in the heroes continuity it looks like this (I think) SSJB Goku > Xeno SSJ4 Goku = Tbm w/Ddb SSJ4 Broly > SSJ4 Broly > GT SSJ4 Goku
I’m sure that’s basically what I’ve seen people say here and around the internet.
Agreed, but is the Heroes version of SSB Goku the same Goku as the one in Super? I know that he is post TOP, but is he from an alternate timeline from the "actual" Goku? If so, how do they compare to the characters in Super?
I’m not sure. I can’t see there being a power difference without it being mentioned. Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will let you know.
Champa The Destroyer wrote:Strongest character Xeno Goku (the game version) can beat? I don't know much about Heroes but heard crazy things like him stopping Demigra (who was threatening all 12 universes and the real world) in Base/SS1.
Ssj4 Xeno Goku is weaker than ToP SsjB Goku, without Kaiohken.
The strongest character he'd beat is True Golden Freeza, but it'd be a fight that could go either way.
Then he could beat Dyspo (but his speed would be a problem), Base Kefla and Koichiarator.
Time Patrol Team
1. Xeno Goku (can use Limits Surpassed SSJ4 and can add Kaioken on top if he wants to)
2. Xeno Vegeta (can also use Limits Surpassed SSJ4)
3. Xeno Gohan (can go SSJ4)
4. Future Trunks (has SSJ Rage and Genki Sword)
5. Xeno Goten (can go up to SSJ3)
6. Xeno Trunks (can go up to SSJ3, will be treated as Xeno version of present Trunks)
7. Xeno Bardock (can go SSJ4)
8. Piccolo (years of training up until Xeno era, fused with Xeno Dende)
9. Krillin (Post-New Turtle School)
10. Tien (Post-New Crane School)
DestructoDisc wrote:Who is the strongest character current Chiaotsu can beat in a fight?
Possibly a couple of trash tier ToP people like that girl who could just fly and Roshi but mostly you would need to go back to old characters to compare.
For some dumb reason Kuririn is still the strongest human according to Toriyama, even though he stopped training.
I don't think he'd surpassed Yamcha yet, I guess any Ginyu, Coolers squad, and Freezas first 3 forms. We know Base Goku is still weaker than final freeza thanks to BoG.
I have all four humans still slightly below base Goku and thus below final Freeza, so anyone weaker than that really.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga. Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Almighty Majin wrote:How would these teams fare in the ToP?
Time Patrol Team
1. Xeno Goku (can use Limits Surpassed SSJ4 and can add Kaioken on top if he wants to)
2. Xeno Vegeta (can also use Limits Surpassed SSJ4)
3. Xeno Gohan (can go SSJ4)
4. Future Trunks (has SSJ Rage and Genki Sword)
5. Xeno Goten (can go up to SSJ3)
6. Xeno Trunks (can go up to SSJ3, will be treated as Xeno version of present Trunks)
7. Xeno Bardock (can go SSJ4)
8. Piccolo (years of training up until Xeno era, fused with Xeno Dende)
9. Krillin (Post-New Turtle School)
10. Tien (Post-New Crane School)
Time patrollers probably need Veggetto Gogeta to beat Jiren, perhaps Gotenks can do it, certainly both together. They stomp anyone else.
Demon realm I'm not sure about, I don't know where Mech stacks as I can't find the latest manga chapters translated.
Their best shot it Towa/Demigra just controlling anyone, even Jiren to jump out the ring, I think only gods can resist her control. Unless they need their staffs to do it and aren't allowed them. Otherwise they may have trouble with Jiren, not sure.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga. Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
DestructoDisc wrote:Who is the strongest character current Chiaotsu can beat in a fight?
Possibly a couple of trash tier ToP people like that girl who could just fly and Roshi but mostly you would need to go back to old characters to compare.
For some dumb reason Kuririn is still the strongest human according to Toriyama, even though he stopped training.
I don't think he'd surpassed Yamcha yet, I guess any Ginyu, Coolers squad, and Freezas first 3 forms. We know Base Goku is still weaker than final freeza thanks to BoG.
I have all four humans still slightly below base Goku and thus below final Freeza, so anyone weaker than that really.
Really anywhere under Final Form Freeza could be where Chaotzu stands.
I have current Roshi at like Captain Ginyu level so I think the best Chaotzu could do is beat 1st or 2nd form Freeza.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Dr. Gero: I cleared the area of innocents, in accordance with your wishes. Do you disagree with my methods? Goku: Grr...leave these people out of this! Android 19: There are no people left to leave out.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Through time travel problems, in the Saiyan Arc, there are two Goku's and two Vegetas. They somehow know fusion and have Potara Earrings. They form Gogeta and Vegito, then fuse with the dance to make Gogito. Who is the strongest character they can beat? They have Kaioken up to x3 and the ability to create a fake moon and become Great Ape.
AhmadHendie wrote:1 Hypothetical Full power super saiyan 4 blue goku (Super, ToP)vs Whis
2 Hypothetical Blue oozaru Vegeta(Super, ToP) vs jiren
For the oozaru, remember that golden oozaru(SSJ1) is significantly above ssj3 in power
If SSJ4 can stack on top of SSJB then Goku should easily be the victor in raw strength alone, but if Whis uses his time rewinding ability then he could catch Goku before he ever transformed.
Blue Oozaru Vegeta would still get wrecked by Jiren due to Goku having 20x the strength of an ordinary SSJB, but being unable to put a dent in Jiren not even using his full power. If it were SSJBE Oozaru Vegeta on the other hand then Vegeta wins with ease.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
jeffbr92 wrote:Future Gohan (Post RoSaT) vs. Gohan (Boo arc)
Boo arc Gohan wins. Future Gohan would likely only achieve the results of Vegeta's 1st ROSAT session at the most because he wouldn't exactly know what he was trying to reach: nobody knew if there was even a level beyond SSJ until Vegeta proclaimed that there was, and that he would be the first to achieve it. Future Gohan never even got any stronger than Namek Goku, and if this was when he had only one arm then he may just barely reach Future Trunks' 1st ROSAT results.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
AhmadHendie wrote:1 Hypothetical Full power super saiyan 4 blue goku (Super, ToP)vs Whis
2 Hypothetical Blue oozaru Vegeta(Super, ToP) vs jiren
For the oozaru, remember that golden oozaru(SSJ1) is significantly above ssj3 in power
1. Ssjblue 4 Goku? Well,he would be super strong. However we don't know Whis's max power. He has been teasing and easily defeating anyone with ease since Super started. And he isn't even the strongest angel. Personally, I feel ssjblue 4 Goku would be 75-80% Whis. I personally have Beerus at 25% whis, Jiren and MUI Goku at 30-35%. Also whis has had abilities, time travel, healing, teleportation, minor reality warping, and a master of UI with no consequences. And god knows what else. He wins easily.
2. He'd probably do a little better, however Jiren would be faster and still stronger. If it was SsjBE version, he might actually hurt Jiren. But would lose to LB Jiren, due to sheer power and speed advantage.
- Goku (23rd Tenkaichi Budokai) vs. Raspberry
- Yamcha (Android arc) vs. Nappa & Vegeta
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
jeffbr92 wrote:- Goku (23rd Tenkaichi Budokai) vs. Raspberry
I'll say Goku just because Rasberry didn't do anything.
- Yamcha (Android arc) vs. Nappa & Vegeta
Yamcha should definitely be above Nappa, and I think he was probably above Vegeta, though I don't think there is enough to say he can beat both at the same time.
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