The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[ricky84]

BoZ Goku & Piccolo vs 23th Tenkaiichi's top 8
MUI Merged Zamasu (no immortality) vs MUI Goku & Awakened Jiren
Majuub vs Base Vegito (Buu arc)
A16 vs Metal Cooler
UI Omen Black vs Full Powered base Jiren

[ahill1]

BoZ Goku & Piccolo vs 23th Tenkaiichi's top 8
MUI Merged Zamasu (no immortality) vs MUI Goku & Awakened Jiren
Majuub vs Base Vegito (Buu arc)
A16 vs Metal Cooler
UI Omen Black vs Full Powered base Jiren

A - Goku and Piccolo have got this without problems. Piccolo stated in the 23rd Budokai, in response to Kuririn stating that they should all gang up on him if things get too rough, that it doesn't matter how many of them go at him, since they are only pesky flies compared to his power. Yamcha didn't believe it at first, but Kame-Sen'nin admitted Piccolo was right, saying only Goku is able to copy with those incredible movements of his... add Goku as a potentially stronger partner and give them 5 years of additional training (which was the time separating the Budokai from the beginning of Z), and the competirors at the 23rd Budokai, Kami included, haven't a shot at winning here, unless they develop a miraculously smart strategy exploiting their most powerful attacks.

B - Tough to say, but considering that in the manga (dunno about the anime) Goku could already go toe to toe with Merged Zamasu whilst 'mastering' the SSJB form, I think the team has got this, even though we have only seen a glimpse of the UI in the manga. I don't think this can be easily predicted though, since the UI achievement doesn't seem to be solely a multiplier on top of someone's base power, as far as I'm aware.

C - Goku, upon sensing Super Baby Vegeta's chi, stated that such is the most powerful chi he has ever felt, which implies he surpassed even the Vegetto SSJ from the battle with Boo, the chi Goku was familiar with. Whilst you could say Goku is referring solely to Boohan, there's a convincing breakdown suggeting the Boo Goku was referring to when saying Rild was stronger was the one with Gohan absorbed. Said that, an enemy who fought for some moments a most powerful version of Baby Vegeta such as Majuub would wreck base Vegetto, who as far as the manga goes, might be considerably below Boohan, as he didn't even attempt to engage him in battle.

D - I don't think Metal Cooler has a chance here, honestly, considering Goku and Vegeta as SSJs could at least hold their own for some moments if my memory isn't failing. #16 was already strong enough to tank an amplified attack from someone above the androids arc SSJ tier, so I fail to see him not quickly disposing of them. Maybe Cooler has a shot here with his army, dunno.

E - It took Goku to master U.I offensive's power to soundly overwhelm Jiren, right? I don't think Black has got this unless he has also the offensive power to back up his 'dodging' abilities granted by the first unlock of U.I.

[dragon boss z]

BoZ Goku & Piccolo vs 23th Tenkaiichi's top 8
MUI Merged Zamasu (no immortality) vs MUI Goku & Awakened Jiren
Majuub vs Base Vegito (Buu arc)
A16 vs Metal Cooler
UI Omen Black vs Full Powered base Jiren

-Goku and Piccolo, and the only ones who would give them trouble are Goku and Piccolo, lol.
-Uh idk. Zamasu I guess.
-pass
-if it's just one meta Cooler that won't evolve, then 16. If there is more than one or if he lets Cooler evolve, then Cooler wins.
-Jiren

[ZombieVito]

That ssj2 Gohan was probably buu saga ssj2 tier. Piccolo clearly won that fight with technique anyways. The next episode shows base Goku above Picccolo, and Piccolo is still weaker than final form Frieza who is base Goku level.
And I could throw your arguent right back saying "Is tired base Goku beating initial ssj2 Caulifla not enough".

Base Gohan fought Lavender who is at least SS2 Boo arc tier...

Just because Goku survived Piccolo's shock-wave doesn't mean he's stronger or otherwise a half dead Babidi is stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

Base Goku beating SS2 Caulifla is explained in the episode...

[Puaru]

1. all the characters you mentioned trained way longer than Gohan did (who trained for like 1 day)
2. Future Trunks and Frieza only reached SSB level with a new transformation, and I would actually put Future Trunks and 17 at SSG to low Blue tier as well.
.

Gohan trained ever since after the RoF arc, not just one day. And if Freeza could get that strong by training for just four moths, then so can Gohan because he has more potential.

As for Trunks, he has no god ki and yet was able to go directly from SS2 to being SSB-level in Power. If he could do it then Gohan should DEFINITELY be able to quickly go from his Boo-saga Ultimate Power to SSB Power. If Trunks can do it then it wouldmake no sense for Gohan not to be able to do it. Ultimate is way stronger than SS2 after all.

[dragon boss z]

Base Gohan fought Lavender who is at least SS2 Boo arc tier...

So do you believe in the base retcon? Because my original point was that Piccolo doesn't beat Z Vegito.

Just because Goku survived Piccolo's shock-wave doesn't mean he's stronger or otherwise a half dead Babidi is stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

He didn't just survey though he pushed it back a bit, and if Piccolo was above him he wouldn't have had to resort to that.

Base Goku beating SS2 Caulifla is explained in the episode...

And I think it was made prettt clear Piccolo beat ssj2 Gohan due to skill as well.

Gohan trained ever since after the RoF arc, not just one day. And if Freeza could get that strong by training for just four moths, then so can Gohan because he has more potential.

Gohan trained a bit on and off but it was implied he was still weak in the Black arc and when Goku sparred with him after that arc Gohan said he was neglecting his training. And there is no proof Gohan has more potential than Frieza.

As for Trunks, he has no god ki and yet was able to go directly from SS2 to being SSB-level in Power. If he could do it then Gohan should DEFINITELY be able to quickly go from his Boo-saga Ultimate Power to SSB Power. If Trunks can do it then it wouldmake no sense for Gohan not to be able to do it. Ultimate is way stronger than SS2 after all.

Trunks being God level was stupid as well, and that was only a Toei only transformation. And Gohan really shouldn't have more potential than Trunks. Trunks was stronger when younger, could turn ssj while younger, is older, and has been in far more battles training his entire life trying to survive.

[dragon boss z]

Imperfect Cell (initial) vs ssj Vegeta (android arc)

[PFM18]

1. all the characters you mentioned trained way longer than Gohan did (who trained for like 1 day)
2. Future Trunks and Frieza only reached SSB level with a new transformation, and I would actually put Future Trunks and 17 at SSG to low Blue tier as well.
.

Gohan trained ever since after the RoF arc, not just one day.

The sequence with Piccolo for that singular day is the only serious training he did during the run of DBS. I believe he stated as much.

And if Freeza could get that strong by training for just four moths, then so can Gohan because he has more potential.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Freeza has massively higher potential than gohan and his training in those 4 months is proof of that.

As for Trunks, he has no god ki and yet was able to go directly from SS2 to being SSB-level in Power. If he could do it then Gohan should DEFINITELY be able to quickly go from his Boo-saga Ultimate Power to SSB Power. If Trunks can do it then it wouldmake no sense for Gohan not to be able to do it. Ultimate is way stronger than SS2 after all

But he wasn't SSB level in his SSJ2 form so I have no idea why you are making this comparison. He didn't become SSB level until he got Super Saiyan Rage

[Puaru]

Whatever, Gohan can now fight Kefla so he is stronger than Freeza, Future Trunks and 17. The way it should be.

[ZombieVito]

Base Gohan fought Lavender who is at least SS2 Boo arc tier...

So do you believe in the base retcon? Because my original point was that Piccolo doesn't beat Z Vegito.

Just because Goku survived Piccolo's shock-wave doesn't mean he's stronger or otherwise a half dead Babidi is stronger than SS2 Vegeta.

He didn't just survey though he pushed it back a bit, and if Piccolo was above him he wouldn't have had to resort to that.

Base Goku beating SS2 Caulifla is explained in the episode...

And I think it was made prettt clear Piccolo beat ssj2 Gohan due to skill as well.

Gohan trained ever since after the RoF arc, not just one day. And if Freeza could get that strong by training for just four moths, then so can Gohan because he has more potential.

Gohan trained a bit on and off but it was implied he was still weak in the Black arc and when Goku sparred with him after that arc Gohan said he was neglecting his training. And there is no proof Gohan has more potential than Frieza.

As for Trunks, he has no god ki and yet was able to go directly from SS2 to being SSB-level in Power. If he could do it then Gohan should DEFINITELY be able to quickly go from his Boo-saga Ultimate Power to SSB Power. If Trunks can do it then it wouldmake no sense for Gohan not to be able to do it. Ultimate is way stronger than SS2 after all.

Trunks being God level was stupid as well, and that was only a Toei only transformation. And Gohan really shouldn't have more potential than Trunks. Trunks was stronger when younger, could turn ssj while younger, is older, and has been in far more battles training his entire life trying to survive.

No I don't believe in a retcon.

Goku said he barely withstood it. I see your point but then again, Piccolo didnt know Goku wouldnt use Super Saiyan. This fight really doesn't prove anything. Piccolo beating SS2 Gohan does.

No. Gohan commented on Piccolo's new power not skill.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Imperfect Cell (initial) vs ssj Vegeta (android arc)

Cell wins given how Vegeta was scared of his power + Cell knows everything about Vegeta and Vegeta isn't aware of his tail. It's not going to be easy though, given how Cell was actually worried when he saw SSJ Vegeta.

[dragon boss z]

No I don't believe in a retcon.

Then Piccolo shouldn't be above base Goku who is above RoF Frieza level.

Goku said he barely withstood it. I see your point but then again, Piccolo didnt know Goku wouldnt use Super Saiyan.

The fight clearly presented Gohan and Goku as the heavy hitter while Piccolo and Tien were the support (well Tien was treated more like trash).

This fight really doesn't prove anything. Piccolo beating SS2 Gohan does.

It proves he is at least around ssj2 tier. It means anime Piccolo can beat Dabura and Cell. Maybe good Buu if he is lucky, but probably not.

No. Gohan commented on Piccolo's new power not skill.

Because Piccolo went from being bellow ssj Gohan to ssj2 tier. When Gohan and Piccolo clashed they were about even, but then Piccolo outskilled him. His power was shown to be comparable, but he won that specfic fight with his skill.

[PFM18]

Whatever, Gohan can now fight Kefla so he is stronger than Freeza, Future Trunks and 17. The way it should be.

No it isn't what it "should be" it is absolutely asinine that Gohan has surpassed those characters in the manga.

Freeza has astronomical potential given he never trained a day in his life and he was still the strongest in the Universe.

Future Trunks is a half saiyan hybrid which should have tons off potential just as Gohan is but he trained for lm13 years.

Android 17 had been training for 14 years.

Gohan, on the other hand trained in a gravity chamber for a year ish.

[dragon boss z]

Whatever, Gohan can now fight Kefla so he is stronger than Freeza, Future Trunks and 17. The way it should be.

No it isn't what it "should be" it is absolutely asinine that Gohan has surpassed those characters in the manga.
Freeza has astronomical potential given he never trained a day in his life and he was still the strongest in the Universe.
Future Trunks is a half saiyan hybrid which should have tons off potential just as Gohan is but he trained for lm13 years.
Android 17 had been training for 14 years.
Gohan, on the other hand trained in a gravity chamber for a year ish.

Actually in the manga 17 said he didn't train, so being above him is fine. I'm fine with Gohan being above manga Trunks as well since he isn't god tier their and never had his potential unlocked, but I don't think Gohan should be too far above him either, especially his boosted ssj2 level. I definitely agree he shouldn't be stronger than golden Frieza, though I'm completely sure if he actually is though.

[PFM18]

Actually in the manga 17 said he didn't train, so being above him is fine.

That's the manga's problem then. The anime makes no such mention and 17 mentions training to Goku IIRC when Goku goes to recruit him

Trunks had achieved a new transformation on top of training for the previous 13 years.

There's no reason Gohan should be stronger than either of them the guy is a book worm

[dragon boss z]

Actually in the manga 17 said he didn't train, so being above him is fine.

That's the manga's problem then. The anime makes no such mention and 17 mentions training to Goku IIRC when Goku goes to recruit him
Trunks had achieved a new transformation on top of training for the previous 13 years.
There's no reason Gohan should be stronger than either of them the guy is a book worm

True, but since in the manga 17 and Trunks only seem to be ssj3 tier, that basically means Gohan only had to reach his previous buu saga power to match them again. It's easier to regain what you lost than what you never had before. But Gohan never had god power before, so reaching that level doesn't make sense.

[PFM18]

Actually in the manga 17 said he didn't train, so being above him is fine.

That's the manga's problem then. The anime makes no such mention and 17 mentions training to Goku IIRC when Goku goes to recruit him
Trunks had achieved a new transformation on top of training for the previous 13 years.
There's no reason Gohan should be stronger than either of them the guy is a book worm

True, but since in the manga 17 and Trunks only seem to be ssj3 tier, that basically means Gohan only had to reach his previous buu saga power to match them again. It's easier to regain what you lost than what you never had before. But Gohan never had god power before, so reaching that level doesn't make sense.

Yeah that makes sense. Either way it doesn't make sense for Gohan to be as strong as he is in the manga considering that Kefla was stated to be the strongest at the time by Vados and Gohan tied her. Hence:

Kefla=Gohan>Suppressed Jiren>CSSB Goku/Vegeta~Golden Freeza

and that makes no damn sense. The anime places him right where he should be, if anything he is too strong even in the anime. He should be completely irrelevant in power given the massive gains in power everybody else has achieved and the guy's priorities have nothing to do with strength

Moving on, some Freeza fights:

Namek Golden Freeza vs Super Perfect Cell
RoF 1st Form Freeza vs Super Buu
RoF Final Form Freeza vs Buu arc SSJ Vegetto

[ZombieVito]

No I don't believe in a retcon.

Then Piccolo shouldn't be above base Goku who is above RoF Frieza level.

Goku said he barely withstood it. I see your point but then again, Piccolo didnt know Goku wouldnt use Super Saiyan.

The fight clearly presented Gohan and Goku as the heavy hitter while Piccolo and Tien were the support (well Tien was treated more like trash).

This fight really doesn't prove anything. Piccolo beating SS2 Gohan does.

It proves he is at least around ssj2 tier. It means anime Piccolo can beat Dabura and Cell. Maybe good Buu if he is lucky, but probably not.

No. Gohan commented on Piccolo's new power not skill.

Because Piccolo went from being bellow ssj Gohan to ssj2 tier. When Gohan and Piccolo clashed they were about even, but then Piccolo outskilled him. His power was shown to be comparable, but he won that specfic fight with his skill.

How the hell can Piccolo not defeat Boo when base Gohan was already on par with Lavender? The Trio brothers aren't dimensions apart from each other so Piccolo decimates Boo since he's 100 times stronger than that Gohan.

I think you don't realize that Gohan is much stronger than his Boo arc self.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah that makes sense. Either way it doesn't make sense for Gohan to be as strong as he is in the manga considering that Kefla was stated to be the strongest at the time by Vados and Gohan tied her. Hence:
Kefla=Gohan>Suppressed Jiren>CSSB Goku/Vegeta~Golden Freeza

Well Krillin implied Gohan wasn't above Goku yet, so based off of current feats and statements I would say
suppressed Jiren>amplified CSSB Goku>CSSB Goku/Vegeta/Toppo>Kefla/Gohan>Golden Frieza (possibly suppressed)

and that makes no damn sense. The anime places him right where he should be, if anything he is too strong even in the anime. He should be completely irrelevant in power given the massive gains in power everybody else has achieved and the guy's priorities have nothing to do with strength

I agree

Moving on, some Freeza fights:
Namek Golden Freeza vs Super Perfect Cell
RoF 1st Form Freeza vs Super Buu
RoF Final Form Freeza vs Buu arc SSJ Vegetto

-I have super perfect Cell 10-20x namek Frieza, and I think gold is a bigger boost than that, so Frieza stomps imo.
-Super Buu. First form Frieza really didn't prove he was stronger than anyone beyond rusty ssj Gohan and Piccolo. I have him in the super perfect Cell/fat Buu range at most.
-I'll go with ssj Vegetto, but Frieza might be able to beat base Vegetto.

[dragon boss z]

How the hell can Piccolo not defeat Boo when base Gohan was already on par with Lavender? The Trio brothers aren't dimensions apart from each other so Piccolo decimates Boo since he's 100 times stronger than that Gohan.

ssj Gohan tied with lavender. Buu outright beat an amped Basil. Yes the trio are about the same, but amped Basil would be far stronger than regular Lavender.

I think you don't realize that Gohan is much stronger than his Boo arc self.

When he got his mystic form back with Piccolo he reached where he was in the Buu saga. His training after that sent him beyond his buu saga self.