TobyS wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:44 am
ruler9871 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:19 pm
TobyS wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:54 am
Show me in the daiz where it says that, he Buuhan must have been stronger or he wouldn't have gone SS in the first place.
Vegito merely went SSJ just to troll Buuhan, not because he absolutely needed to.
TobyS wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:54 am
I know they aren't tiers but in the of manga base fusions never achieve anything and boosts from, base Gotenks pre is weaker than ss3 goku.(although how you rate the kids compared to adults can vary wildly.)
Base Vegito in the DBS manga causally shot off half of Merged Zamasu's body, showing that he is clearly stronger than SSB Goku/Vegeta in that saga. Its the same thing as Base Kefla beating up SSG Goku in the anime.
TobyS wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:54 am
I always had Vegetto maybe around SS3 Goku, weaker than Gohan or Buuhan anyway. (Buuhan is only about 2 and a bit Gohans.) And SS1 is a huge boost.
There's nothing to suggest that Buu arc Base Vegito was weaker than Ultimate Gohan.
The wording of that doesn't preclude him needing super saiyan.
It allowed him a power up so great that he could [when using his super saiyan] bully Buu.
The bullying and gum stuff it goes on to mention all occur after he turns super saiyan. It doesn't say “and he could have done the exact same things in base.
Fusion is Huge but Buuhan is billions of miles ahead of either saiyan alone. 50x is a huge multiplier too. I think he needed both.
If his aim was to humiliate buu base would be better because it uses less energy and he could rub salt in the wound and say “damn you so weak I don't need to transform even!”
We know about Veggetto cutting zamasu means nothing, there's 2 things to note here:
1. As I recall, Zamasu was rushing in expecting to find two half dead base saiyans.
Veggetto uses a sharp ki blade. You don't think Kuririn was stronger than Freeza because his kienzan cut off his tail.
2. Many people think, due to base Gogetas fucking insane showing in the new movie that base fusion is somehow tethered to max power of the fusees.
This isn't word of god, but explains the speculated and never contradicted BoG Red God > BoG Veggetto and reconciles it with Base Gogeta > Blue Goku.
So a post God era fusion is a different thing to Buu saga Veggetto
There is nothing to suggest he's weaker than Gohan but there's nothing to suggest he isn't.
SS Veggetto > x >Buuhan > x >Gohan > x=\=SS3 Goku.
The x's are the 3 places Base Veggetto could have o fit. You think that excerpt means he's the first X I'm saying I think it could be any of the 3 but lean towards the last two.
In my opiniom, Vegito needed to go SSJ.
I personally place Base Vegito at a level of ×500 Base "Gokus". Above SSJ3, but kinda hard to say if he surpasses Ultimate Gohan as well.
Now, now, we never got to see how Gohan would perform against Buuhan (for obvious reasons). As such, we can't say that Vegito is certainly weaker or stronger, although his fight with Buu may suggest the latter.
As such, Base Vegito wasn't able to surpass Buu's might and raw strentgh. Rather, his techniques were the key. Plus, the fact that Buu was pretty certain that a Metamoran Fusion between Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be enough to defeat him (it is unknown if he referred to Base Gogeta or Super Gogeta).
When Buu was cornered, he got enraged at Vegito's tricks. It was when Vegito realized that the gap in power was now far too great for him to toy with Buuhan. Subsequently, he went SSJ. He was forced to do so. Of course, this form could have offered Vegito a boost great enough to not only match Buu, but to overwhelm him.
I have my owm headcannon as to why Vegito didn't get 50 times stronger as a Super Saiyan, however this shouldn't complicate things more.
Anyway, ultimately, the real question is where Gogeta would be placed during the Buu Saga events. I think that his Base form is much weaker to Vegito's, however his SSJ would provide for a boost that would elevate him at SSJ Vegito level. Neither of them would get 50 times stronger though.
Lastly, when Daizenshuu suggested that Vegito was perhaps stronger to SSJ4 Goku, I think that it referred to Super Vegito from Z. That is because, if my assumptions are correct, SSJ4 (who is ×10 SSJ, however keep in mind that GT's empowered SSJ has a multiplier of ×100 Base), then Super Vegito would be somewhere above that level, with Super Gogeta following with a small gap.
Gogeta has the advantage of growing stronger much faster, whilr Vegito has greater starting power as a Fusion.
