The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:22 am

In Brightest Day wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:45 am
A few fights here:

- Krillin (Android arc) vs. Son Goku (base, no Kaioken - against Freeza on Namek)
- Tenshinhan (Android arc) vs. Freeza (3rd form, Namek)
- Yamcha (Android arc) vs. Piccolo (post-Nail fusion)
- Oob (beginning of GT) vs. Ultimate Son Gohan (Buu arc)
- Olibu vs. Vegeta (base, Cell-Games)
- Chaozu (Android arc) vs. Freeza (1st form, Namek)
I have them as equals. Kuririn sadly loses because Goku has bigger skill and IT.
Tenshinhan wins after a good fight. He takes this easily if he can land a Shin Kikoho though.
Yamcha after a good fight.
I have no idea. The coin I tossed said Gohan.
Vegeta should take this.
Poor Chaozu loses badly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:27 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:22 am
In Brightest Day wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:45 am
A few fights here:

- Krillin (Android arc) vs. Son Goku (base, no Kaioken - against Freeza on Namek)
- Tenshinhan (Android arc) vs. Freeza (3rd form, Namek)
- Yamcha (Android arc) vs. Piccolo (post-Nail fusion)
- Oob (beginning of GT) vs. Ultimate Son Gohan (Buu arc)
- Olibu vs. Vegeta (base, Cell-Games)
- Chaozu (Android arc) vs. Freeza (1st form, Namek)
I have them as equals. Kuririn sadly loses because Goku has bigger skill and IT.
Tenshinhan wins after a good fight. He takes this easily if he can land a Shin Kikoho though.
Yamcha after a good fight.
I have no idea. The coin I tossed said Gohan.
Vegeta should take this.
Poor Chaozu loses badly.
If 1st Freeza is slightly over twice as weak as Piccolo and Chaozu historically wasn't twice as weak as Yamcha... How do you figure?

You could say he started to slip that far behind and that's why he was left but by Moro he's not insta killed by someone who the three of them can't beat combined.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:31 am

Here's one.

1. The three humans who fought that alien in the Moro arc aren't interupted. Can they win? Without kikoho.
2. With kikoho.
3. Plus Kuririn.
4. Plus Kibito, said to be buu saga base Gohan level and may have improved since.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by nickzambuto » Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:00 pm

Berserker1921 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:52 am
nickzambuto wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:05 am
Berserker1921 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:44 am


Probably not. I don’t know how strong his prime version was. But Piccolo SR was able to best fighters stronger than Roshi. Who in the previous arc, blew up the moon. I’d say he could maybe, maybe, beat Goku in the arc before that tournament
The problem is that the characters had great DC even back then but their stats weren't as impressive. All Might can throw a little punch and create a shockwave that rips through a whole city and destroys buildings. This might also make him faster than characters in early Dragon Ball, although maybe not if the characters were already FTL back then (Goku did dodge the Taioken). But I still think All Might has way more strength than anyone in early Dragon Ball and he might be a tank who can throw Piccolo around, even if he doesn't have the DC.
We don’t know how strong he was during his prime. All it’s claimed is that he could have beaten a Nomu in 5 hits. But before he lost what was left of One for All. It took him 300 hits.

So if we go by that. He was 60x times stronger during his prime. So maybe High City level? Low mountain level? He could destroy a large full city if wanted to. Or a small mountain.
Yeah and you have to think, that's just with a simple punch. Not an expulsion of ki life force energy that goes beyond his limits. This is why I believe All Might is a lot physically stronger than Piccolo.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:10 am

I meant at full power. He would decimate a large city or a small mountain.

I could see him doing some what damage against King Piccolo. But Piccolo has the advantage, he is pretty past and has ki blasts.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:41 pm

TobyS wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:27 am
If 1st Freeza is slightly over twice as weak as Piccolo and Chaozu historically wasn't twice as weak as Yamcha... How do you figure?

You could say he started to slip that far behind and that's why he was left but by Moro he's not insta killed by someone who the three of them can't beat combined.
Chaozu not showing up for the Androids tells me he indeed slipped away. I have him with less than 300K BP by Super.

I don't take into account the Super manga. If the Moro arc gets adapted into the anime then we will see.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:42 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:41 pm
TobyS wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:27 am
If 1st Freeza is slightly over twice as weak as Piccolo and Chaozu historically wasn't twice as weak as Yamcha... How do you figure?

You could say he started to slip that far behind and that's why he was left but by Moro he's not insta killed by someone who the three of them can't beat combined.
Chaozu not showing up for the Androids tells me he indeed slipped away. I have him with less than 300K BP by Super.

I don't take into account the Super manga. If the Moro arc gets adapted into the anime then we will see.
Ok, I see the manga as canon but fair enough.
I mean Chaozu is still training alongside Ten, so I took it to mean he slipped behind in terms of growth rate rather than maximum potential or something, that's how I square that circle.

Either way I guess you can make the argument he just needed longer to get the first form freezas level then the android saga allows. The only argument against it was that they felt how strong freeza and cold were and flew to them pre android training, it was only compared to the implied future 17+18 level Ten didn't feel Chaozu was up for after all. But yeah, it's still a viable take.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:40 am

So how strong do you think the merged Namek from the moro arc is, Piccolo, altho he's not on his own does better against a stronger Moro I feel, so he's lower then him but we have no other feats or frame of reference.

Lets say he runs a z-super gauntlet, how far does he get.
I could see him beating classic Freeza, as he's a countermeasure put in place after the Freeza events thematically makes sense.
This makes him also stronger then BoG base Goku and the humans pre moro arc training at least.

But I'm not sure where he stops, classic 18? First form Cell?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am

I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:13 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am
I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.
Current Piccolo should definitely be stronger than Current 17 and 18, given his far better feats against Saganbo and Moro and how barely recognizable he was by Goku. That means he should far surpass Majin Boo and Cell by miles. He's possibly close or around Current SSG tier for all we know, given how he was able to coordinate attacks with Gohan, which would be literally impossible if the gap between them was still way too large.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:05 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:13 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am
I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.
Current Piccolo should definitely be stronger than Current 17 and 18, given his far better feats against Saganbo and Moro and how barely recognizable he was by Goku. That means he should far surpass Majin Boo and Cell by miles. He's possibly close or around Current SSG tier for all we know, given how he was able to coordinate attacks with Gohan, which would be literally impossible if the gap between them was still way too large.
He's Deffo above Cell, maybe Mr Buu
Going from below Cell Jr. to between Cell and Mr Buu would be a unrecognisable jump given his former stagnancy.
I dunno about SSG. I think stronger then SS3 and 17... which I guess does make him stronger then Mr. Buu.

So Goku and Vegeta would need God forms to beat Piccolo now? That's interesting I bet the anime would never go for that with all it's saiyan wank. Wonder how the anime will handle Piccolo if they adapt this. Probably have loads of dumb weirdly contradicting statements and feats.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:27 pm

TobyS wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:05 pm
dragonball0900 wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:13 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am
I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.
Current Piccolo should definitely be stronger than Current 17 and 18, given his far better feats against Saganbo and Moro and how barely recognizable he was by Goku. That means he should far surpass Majin Boo and Cell by miles. He's possibly close or around Current SSG tier for all we know, given how he was able to coordinate attacks with Gohan, which would be literally impossible if the gap between them was still way too large.
He's Deffo above Cell, maybe Mr Buu
Going from below Cell Jr. to between Cell and Mr Buu would be a unrecognisable jump given his former stagnancy.
I dunno about SSG. I think stronger then SS3 and 17... which I guess does make him stronger then Mr. Buu.

So Goku and Vegeta would need God forms to beat Piccolo now? That's interesting I bet the anime would never go for that with all it's saiyan wank. Wonder how the anime will handle Piccolo if they adapt this. Probably have loads of dumb weirdly contradicting statements and feats.
He should have definitely far surpassed a Cell Jr. at least by the U6 saga I believe. He could have even reached Cell's level in the ToP. Since Goku did say he was barely recognizable, I doubt he would give those compliments to someone as weak as Cell, specially coming from a being that is already far far above that. But, yeah, it depends where manga 17's power stands. I said he was Current SSG tier in my previous post because some people believe he is SSJ3 tier, but others say he is SSG/SSB tier, even in the manga. No matter where he stands though, Piccolo should be much stronger than him, since even with infinite energy and such, 17 couldn't outlast him, and both androids have to stand back and watch as Piccolo and Gohan kept on fighting.

As for the anime, yeah, I also wonder that. Specially since the anime seemed to downplay him far more than in the manga in terms of strength and relevance (he had less screen time than even Roshi of all people). The manga did give him some decent moments power wise like beating fodder all around alongside Gohan and 17, while the anime just kept pairing him alongside Gohan and barely performing any feats with the exception of the Special Beam Canon, to the point that they wrongly make him equal or even far weaker than a Base Saiyan at points. Heck even Roshi and 18 received far better showings than poor Piccolo, with 18 outlasting him as well. So it depends how the anime can handle the current power Piccolo showed right now in the Moro Saga. Like, for example, the anime had Piccolo no longer being able to keep up with the fight or doing team cooperation with Ultimate Gohan against the U6 Namekians after they powered up, while currently in the manga he manages to hold his own and fight alongside Ultimate Gohan just fine against Saganbo, despite ultimately losing, which shows a great difference in Piccolo's level to the point that it looks like they are two different characters. So I really have to wonder how the anime is going to handle this change.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:04 pm

TobyS wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:40 am
So how strong do you think the merged Namek from the moro arc is, Piccolo, altho he's not on his own does better against a stronger Moro I feel, so he's lower then him but we have no other feats or frame of reference.

Lets say he runs a z-super gauntlet, how far does he get.
I could see him beating classic Freeza, as he's a countermeasure put in place after the Freeza events thematically makes sense.
This makes him also stronger then BoG base Goku and the humans pre moro arc training at least.

But I'm not sure where he stops, classic 18? First form Cell?
It's actually said merging Namekians has been a defense measure on Namek from "throughout the ages", not specifically because of Freeza. It's hard to tell how strong that Merged Namekian is since we don't how many were fused exactly (Just that there were "several dozen") or even how we don't know how Namekian fusion works.

Assuming Piccolo was about as strong as Nail and basing off how Nail alone is stronger than a dozen Namekians, I think the Merged Namekian is still weaker than Full Power Freeza, but is still a solid percentage of Freeza's final form.
dragonball0900 wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:27 pm
He should have definitely far surpassed a Cell Jr. at least by the U6 saga I believe. He could have even reached Cell's level in the ToP. Since Goku did say he was barely recognizable, I doubt he would give those compliments to someone as weak as Cell, specially coming from a being that is already far far above that. But, yeah, it depends where manga 17's power stands. I said he was Current SSG tier in my previous post because some people believe he is SSJ3 tier, but others say he is SSG/SSB tier, even in the manga. No matter where he stands though, Piccolo should be much stronger than him, since even with infinite energy and such, 17 couldn't outlast him, and both androids have to stand back and watch as Piccolo and Gohan kept on fighting.

As for the anime, yeah, I also wonder that. Specially since the anime seemed to downplay him far more than in the manga in terms of strength and relevance (he had less screen time than even Roshi of all people). The manga did give him some decent moments power wise like beating fodder all around alongside Gohan and 17, while the anime just kept pairing him alongside Gohan and barely performing any feats with the exception of the Special Beam Canon, to the point that they wrongly make him equal or even far weaker than a Base Saiyan at points. Heck even Roshi and 18 received far better showings than poor Piccolo, with 18 outlasting him as well. So it depends how the anime can handle the current power Piccolo showed right now in the Moro Saga. Like, for example, the anime had Piccolo no longer being able to keep up with the fight or doing team cooperation with Ultimate Gohan against the U6 Namekians after they powered up, while currently in the manga he manages to hold his own and fight alongside Ultimate Gohan just fine against Saganbo, despite ultimately losing, which shows a great difference in Piccolo's level to the point that it looks like they are two different characters. So I really have to wonder how the anime is going to handle this change.
Of course Goku wouldn't give a compliment like that to Cell. Cell never trained or had any kind of power up that made his Ki signature change. "I couldn't even recognize you" or whatever Goku said is comparing Piccolo's Ki then to what it is now. The only measure stick here is Piccolo's old Ki.

I think current Piccolo is definitely god tier now given his feats against Saganbo, but I'm not sure how he compares to #17 (Who has likely also powered up since the ToP) or Gohan, though he's probably weaker than the later still.
In Brightest Day wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:45 am
A few fights here:

- Krillin (Android arc) vs. Son Goku (base, no Kaioken - against Freeza on Namek)
- Tenshinhan (Android arc) vs. Freeza (3rd form, Namek)
- Yamcha (Android arc) vs. Piccolo (post-Nail fusion)
- Oob (beginning of GT) vs. Ultimate Son Gohan (Buu arc)
- Olibu vs. Vegeta (base, Cell-Games)
- Chaozu (Android arc) vs. Freeza (1st form, Namek)
All of the humans lose their fights pretty badly. I find it very unlikely any of them ever reached 1st form Freeza's level of power.

Oob probably has already learned to control Pure Boo's power by the start of GT at the very least. Given how the anime emphasises that Pure Boo is the strongest Majin Boo, he should make short work out of Gohan.

I think Olibu wins here. Even with the Paikuhan > Cell filler I'm not sure if Olibu is also meant to be that strong since fighting a bad guy =/= tournament fighting (Paikuhan didn't even use that fire technique on him), but he's probably far better than a Base Saiyan.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:12 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am
I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.
I'm baffled that people think this. Piccolo is flat out shown to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 from the Boo arc (Gohan). After that he's on par with an improved base Gohan at the ToP. This Gohan is on par with Goku.

Why would 18 be stronger than Piccolo btw?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:12 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:12 am
I think Piccolo might be stronger than 17 and 18 right now, but some people have a hard time seeing him stronger than Majin Boo or Cell, I guess.
I'm baffled that people think this. Piccolo is flat out shown to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2 from the Boo arc (Gohan). After that he's on par with an improved base Gohan at the ToP. This Gohan is on par with Goku.

Why would 18 be stronger than Piccolo btw?
I think it’s because 18 is apparently stronger than Base Goku when they fight the Pride Troopers and Kamikaze Fireballs. And she defeated a powered-up version of Ribrianne, who gave a lot of trouble to Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:47 pm

Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > 17 > Piccolo > Buu > 18 > Trunks >=Goten > Humans

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:55 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 am
I think it’s because 18 is apparently stronger than Base Goku when they fight the Pride Troopers and Kamikaze Fireballs. And she defeated a powered-up version of Ribrianne, who gave a lot of trouble to Goku and Vegeta.
The U2 girls are very weak.

That guy who got Ribrianne's full power couldn't even beat an exhausted base Goku.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:55 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 am
I think it’s because 18 is apparently stronger than Base Goku when they fight the Pride Troopers and Kamikaze Fireballs. And she defeated a powered-up version of Ribrianne, who gave a lot of trouble to Goku and Vegeta.
The U2 girls are very weak.

That guy who got Ribrianne's full power couldn't even beat an exhausted base Goku.
If you mean their ace can’t beat even 18, I agree they are weak. But the point is about how Piccolo compares to 18. If Piccolo is ranked about Base Goku’s level, who is weaker than Super Ribrianne, which has an even stronger form (giant), by extension he is weaker than 18.

Unless you subscribe to that theory that 18 is immune to Ribrianne’s magical power, which may overwrite everything that I said. Then, you would have the Pride Troopers.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:09 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 pm
If you mean their ace can’t beat even 18, I agree they are weak. But the point is about how Piccolo compares to 18. If Piccolo is ranked about Base Goku’s level, who is weaker than Super Ribrianne, which has an even stronger form (giant), by extension he is weaker than 18.

Unless you subscribe to that theory that 18 is immune to Ribrianne’s magical power, which may overwrite everything that I said. Then, you would have the Pride Troopers.
I don't think any version of Ribrianne beats base Goku if the gap was that wide between Super Brianne and him. Goku couldn't even transform into Blue for more than a short brust. I would be surprised if he was at 10% during that episode.

Also Gamisaras managed to break 18 defense while Piccolo took him out easily. 18 can't be stronger.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:33 am

Piccolo surpassed 18 when he fused with Kami and she never surpassed him back lol

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