The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:56 pm

GatoF wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:47 pm
Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > 17 > Piccolo > Buu > 18 > Trunks >=Goten > Humans
Is this the chain for the ToP Arc or the Moro Arc? Because in the Moro Arc from the manga, Piccolo is clearly above 17 and behind Gohan.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:53 pm

I think the argument could be made Piccolo surpassed Cell as far back as the Champa arc. We know his feat of holding the line against Frost who Vegeta subsequently transformed to take down exists. I would have suggested Buu being overtaken as well but Goku's confidence and prioritisation of Good Buu before anyone else as a potential ally for the tournament leads me to believe that he was still the strongest asset available besides the two Saiyans.

By now I consider Piccolo to have surpassed every benchmark that isn't on the level of SSJG or greater. I wonder if he would have any chance against Goku Black.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:57 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:09 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:31 pm
If you mean their ace can’t beat even 18, I agree they are weak. But the point is about how Piccolo compares to 18. If Piccolo is ranked about Base Goku’s level, who is weaker than Super Ribrianne, which has an even stronger form (giant), by extension he is weaker than 18.

Unless you subscribe to that theory that 18 is immune to Ribrianne’s magical power, which may overwrite everything that I said. Then, you would have the Pride Troopers.
I don't think any version of Ribrianne beats base Goku if the gap was that wide between Super Brianne and him. Goku couldn't even transform into Blue for more than a short brust. I would be surprised if he was at 10% during that episode.

Also Gamisaras managed to break 18 defense while Piccolo took him out easily. 18 can't be stronger.
Goku only made short work of Super Ribrianne in his Super Saiyan Blue form, his base form was at best as strong as her, if not weaker. Also, Tupper’s heavy form is too much for Base Goku, while 18 made short work of him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:37 am

Lionel wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:53 pm
I think the argument could be made Piccolo surpassed Cell as far back as the Champa arc. We know his feat of holding the line against Frost who Vegeta subsequently transformed to take down exists. I would have suggested Buu being overtaken as well but Goku's confidence and prioritisation of Good Buu before anyone else as a potential ally for the tournament leads me to believe that he was still the strongest asset available besides the two Saiyans.

By now I consider Piccolo to have surpassed every benchmark that isn't on the level of SSJG or greater. I wonder if he would have any chance against Goku Black.
But Goku Black is a Blue tier character.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:57 pm
Goku only made short work of Super Ribrianne in his Super Saiyan Blue form, his base form was at best as strong as her, if not weaker. Also, Tupper’s heavy form is too much for Base Goku, while 18 made short work of him.
I just attribute that to Goku fucking around and having to lift himself up + Tupper while 18 didn't.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:33 am

dragonball0900 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:56 pm
GatoF wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:47 pm
Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > 17 > Piccolo > Buu > 18 > Trunks >=Goten > Humans
Is this the chain for the ToP Arc or the Moro Arc? Because in the Moro Arc from the manga, Piccolo is clearly above 17 and behind Gohan.
Anime 17 had great feats in ToP against SSB tier characters, Could Piccolo do that without Gohan's aid? Manga 17 looks weaker so I can see current Piccolo above him. I think Piccolo is Anime future Zamasu or SSG tier.
His special beam cannon is SSB lvl though and probably the only technique that can go through 17's barrier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:40 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:37 am
Lionel wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:53 pm
I think the argument could be made Piccolo surpassed Cell as far back as the Champa arc. We know his feat of holding the line against Frost who Vegeta subsequently transformed to take down exists. I would have suggested Buu being overtaken as well but Goku's confidence and prioritisation of Good Buu before anyone else as a potential ally for the tournament leads me to believe that he was still the strongest asset available besides the two Saiyans.

By now I consider Piccolo to have surpassed every benchmark that isn't on the level of SSJG or greater. I wonder if he would have any chance against Goku Black.
But Goku Black is a Blue tier character.
I'm thinking in terms of inflationary standards. What was the rate of progression from training between the Future Trunks to Universal Survival arcs or Universal Survival to the Galactic Patrol arc? If you take a more grounded conservative interpretation then I could understand that potential match up sounding far-fetched. On the other hand, if you believe the leaps in power were very significant and massive then they may not be out of the question.

What are your thoughts on the progression rate and current power structure?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:35 am

GatoF wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:33 am
dragonball0900 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:56 pm
GatoF wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:47 pm
Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > 17 > Piccolo > Buu > 18 > Trunks >=Goten > Humans
Is this the chain for the ToP Arc or the Moro Arc? Because in the Moro Arc from the manga, Piccolo is clearly above 17 and behind Gohan.
Anime 17 had great feats in ToP against SSB tier characters, Could Piccolo do that without Gohan's aid? Manga 17 looks weaker so I can see current Piccolo above him. I think Piccolo is Anime future Zamasu or SSG tier.
His special beam cannon is SSB lvl though and probably the only technique that can go through 17's barrier.
Yeah 17 is weaker in the manga. He was equal to Gohan in the anime while in the manga he was much weaker than him. That means Piccolo could have easily surpassed him by the time of the Moro battle.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:19 pm

Lionel wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:40 am
I'm thinking in terms of inflationary standards. What was the rate of progression from training between the Future Trunks to Universal Survival arcs or Universal Survival to the Galactic Patrol arc? If you take a more grounded conservative interpretation then I could understand that potential match up sounding far-fetched. On the other hand, if you believe the leaps in power were very significant and massive then they may not be out of the question.

What are your thoughts on the progression rate and current power structure?
I believe SSB Goku and Vegeta didn't surpass SSR Black until the Broly movie.

I don't take the Moro arc into account until Toei adapts it.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:26 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:55 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 am
I think it’s because 18 is apparently stronger than Base Goku when they fight the Pride Troopers and Kamikaze Fireballs. And she defeated a powered-up version of Ribrianne, who gave a lot of trouble to Goku and Vegeta.
That guy who got Ribrianne's full power couldn't even beat an exhausted base Goku.
That was in the same episode where Piccolo was able to injure both of the U6 namekians with a SBC that he charged for less than a minute. Also the one where a tired base Goku outperformed 17. That episode was a mess powerscalling wise.

Scratch that, Super as a whole is a mess powerscalling wise.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:32 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:26 pm
That was in the same episode where Piccolo was able to injure both of the U6 namekians with a SBC that he charged for less than a minute. Also the one where a tired base Goku outperformed 17. That episode was a mess powerscalling wise.

Scratch that, Super as a whole is a mess powerscalling wise.
Both the Makankosappo and Goku's Kamehameha are limit breaking attacks on this episode. That's why they perfom better than normal. The ToP is full of them.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:48 pm

Here's a gauntlet:
  • Recoome
  • Ginyu
  • First form Freeza
  • Second form Freeza
  • Third form Freeza
  • Final form Freeza (5%)
  • Final form Freeza (50%)
  • Final form Freeza (100%)
  • Artificial Human #17
  • Imperfect Cell (post-absorptions)
  • Semi-Perfect Cell
  • Perfect Cell
  • Super Perfect Cell
  • Fat Boo
  • Kid Boo
  • Super Boo
  • Super Boo Gotenks
  • Super Boo Gohan
  • Super Saiyan God Goku (universe 6 tournament)
  • Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
How do you think the current dragon team at full power compares (from the manga continuity)?
  • Chaozu
  • Jaco
  • Kame-sennin
  • Yamcha
  • Tenshinhan
  • Kuririn
  • Super Saiyan Goten
  • Super Saiyan Trunks
  • Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
  • Piccolo
  • Artificial Human #17
  • Artificial Human #18
  • Ultimate Gohan
  • Mr. Boo
Likewise, where do the following fighters (also from the manga) stop in the above gauntlet?
  • Botamo
  • Frost
  • Magetta
  • Final form Freeza (current)
  • Dyspo
  • Super Saiyan Kale
  • Super Saiyan Kefla
  • Super Saiyan 2 future Trunks
  • Future Zamasu
  • Super Saiyan Goku Black

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:53 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:32 pm
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:26 pm
That was in the same episode where Piccolo was able to injure both of the U6 namekians with a SBC that he charged for less than a minute. Also the one where a tired base Goku outperformed 17. That episode was a mess powerscalling wise.

Scratch that, Super as a whole is a mess powerscalling wise.
Both the Makankosappo and Goku's Kamehameha are limit breaking attacks on this episode. That's why they perfom better than normal. The ToP is full of them.
Except Piccolo already tried to make a Makankosappo in the beginning of that exact same episode and it was a lot weaker despite it getting charged for exactly the same amount of time as the other one.

Also Base Goku was able to stand up in the black hole while 17 couldn't. That's why I said he outperformed him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:07 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:48 pm
Here's a gauntlet:
  • Recoome
  • Ginyu
  • First form Freeza
  • Second form Freeza
  • Third form Freeza
  • Final form Freeza (5%)
  • Final form Freeza (50%)
  • Final form Freeza (100%)
  • Artificial Human #17
  • Imperfect Cell (post-absorptions)
  • Semi-Perfect Cell
  • Perfect Cell
  • Super Perfect Cell
  • Fat Boo
  • Kid Boo
  • Super Boo
  • Super Boo Gotenks
  • Super Boo Gohan
  • Super Saiyan God Goku (universe 6 tournament)
  • Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
How do you think the current dragon team at full power compares (from the manga continuity)?
-Pseudo UI Kame Sennin, Jaco, Chaozu, Krilin and Yamcha can take up to 2nd Form Freeza. If they fight together they might take 3rd Freeza too. Who knows, maybe 5% FF Freeza too?
-Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) can kill everyone up until 2nd form Cell. Who knows? maybe by now he has improved enough to kill him. I doubt Perfect Cell would also die.
-Goten and Trunks have been shown fighting on par with a bunch of Cell Jrs. So anyone prior to that shouldn't be a problem for them.
-SS3 Gotenks can take Kid Boo, Super Boo and that's it. Buutenks seems like a stretch. I doubt they are now stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan.
-Piccolo is weird, his feats were off-screen, there are many ways to explain how he outlasted the androids without being stronger than them. But by now he should definitely be above Super Perfect Cell and Fat Boo. He might be up there with Buutenks, though. I don't think he's higher than that.
-18 is a mystery. Is she stronger than before? I think she is, but not by much. Probably Perfect Cell level or something like that.
-17 at the very least can beat up Kid Boo, probably Super Boo too, and then some. I doubt Buuhan and Buutenks have already been surpassed by him.
-Gohan takes out everyone.
-Buu also takes out everyone, well maybe not Rosé Black.

- Botamo I think is somewhere around 50% Freeza or something like that. Base Goku ringed him out.
- Frost should be stronger than Perfect Cell, but maybe not as strong as SP Cell.
- Magetta loses immediately to Freeza's trash talk. The androids and Cell also can say hurtful things. I guess after Perfect Cell, there's no need to insult him to win.
- Final form Freeza (current) might be on Perfect Cell's level. IIRC he wasn't as strong as Frost in similar forms.
- Dyspo couldn't take ToP 17, so he should be around Super Boo, Buffed Boo might be a safe bet.
- Kale beats everybody, she can do them in before running out of steam.
- Kefla should beat everybody, she seems to wield Kale's power without issues.
- Future Trunks was pushing SS3 Goku, so I think Kid Boo isn't on his level. Super Boo I'm not so sure, maybe that's the last guy he can take.
- Future Zamasu is below Trunks, so Kid Boo and that's it.
- Super Saiyan Goku Black is above SS3 Goku, so he only loses to Buutenks and Buuhan. Maybe he defeats Buutenks.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:19 pm
I believe SSB Goku and Vegeta didn't surpass SSR Black until the Broly movie.
Goku had Halo Zamasu beaten pretty badly and crying for more power in the very Goku Black Saga and somehow fought evenly with SSJ1 Kefla in the ToP. Broly movie seems a bit late, specially when it’s the one “saga” with no notable power ups from Goku.
Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:48 pm
Here's a gauntlet:
  • Recoome
  • Ginyu
  • First form Freeza
  • Second form Freeza
  • Third form Freeza
  • Final form Freeza (5%)
  • Final form Freeza (50%)
  • Final form Freeza (100%)
  • Artificial Human #17
  • Imperfect Cell (post-absorptions)
  • Semi-Perfect Cell
  • Perfect Cell
  • Super Perfect Cell
  • Fat Boo
  • Kid Boo
  • Super Boo
  • Super Boo Gotenks
  • Super Boo Gohan
  • Super Saiyan God Goku (universe 6 tournament)
  • Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
How do you think the current dragon team at full power compares (from the manga continuity)?
  • Chaozu
  • Jaco
  • Kame-sennin
  • Yamcha
  • Tenshinhan
  • Kuririn
  • Super Saiyan Goten
  • Super Saiyan Trunks
  • Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks
  • Piccolo
  • Artificial Human #17
  • Artificial Human #18
  • Ultimate Gohan
  • Mr. Boo
Jaco loses to everyone here. He admits being weaker than a full grown Saiyan in his manga. Chaozu is also weaker than everyone but can probably beat Recoome and maybe Ginyu with his paralysis power.

Roshi is also weaker than everyone but his martial art prowess could lead him to beat at least 100% Freeza. I’m not sure if he could go any higher due to stamina issues.

Yamcha could beat Recoome, but doesn’t go beyond giving Ginyu an entertaining fight. Tenshinhan is also weaker than Ginyu, but close enough that he might win even without the Kikoho. Not sure how strong the Kikoho is, but maybe it could pulverize Semi Perfect Cell nowadays. Anyone above that just gets pushed. Kuririn is the only human above Ginyu, but without the Kienzan he can’t beat anyone above that. With it he obviously stops at 1st form Cell.

SSJ boys stop at Perfect Cell. They are supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyans from the Cell Games. Gotenks obviously stops at Gotenks-Boo.

Anyone else I think they solo that list. #17 and Gohan were Blue tier, and #18 and Piccolo seemed to catch up given the in sync fighting style with their respective partners. Dai Kaioshin Boo fights evenly with Moro when he was confirmed to be Blue tiers, but he should beat God and Rosé Super Saiyans.
Likewise, where do the following fighters (also from the manga) stop in the above gauntlet?
  • Botamo
  • Frost
  • Magetta
  • Final form Freeza (current)
  • Dyspo
  • Super Saiyan Kale
  • Super Saiyan Kefla
  • Super Saiyan 2 future Trunks
  • Future Zamasu
  • Super Saiyan Goku Black
Out of these guys. I keep changing my mind on how strong Goku’s lower forms are supposed to be, but right now I think his lower forms were about the same for most of Super. With that said…

Botamo technically has a draw with everyone up to Boo, who can eat or absorb him if needed. His power is probably somwhere between Freeza and 1st form Cell.

In Goku’s head, he takes Cell out with mild difficulty. Since Frost got way more crap from SSJ Goku, he probably loses to SPC. Maybe even regular Perfect Cell, but probably not.

Magetta loses to Freeza for bad mouthing him. That aside, I really don’t know. Vados says Frost is their best U6 fighter (Meaning Magetta is weaker than him), but Magetta is nigh impossible to move.

Current Final Form Freeza had a lot of trouble with Caulifla, who’s stronger than Cabba (And Goku and Vegeta by proxy), so he’s probably between Perfect and Super Perfect Cell. SSJ Caulifla stops at Fat Boo.

With Kale, depends on how the gauntlet works. She can one shot everyone if she’s getting healed after every match, if she isn’t then she stops at one of Majin Boo’s forms. I think she’d have some trouble with him since you can’t just beat Majin Boo with just a clean punch.

SSJ2 Trunks stops at Pure Boo after the fight of his life with Fatty. It’s complicated, but I think Goku’s lower forms are closing in on his SSJ3 level while the SSJ3 power stays the same. SSJ3 is said to draw the power of a Saiyan to it’s limits, so godly forms or Anime wanking aside I don’t think he gets beyond Pure Boo’s level overall, only slowly pulls his lower, stamina friendly forms up to that level.

I like to highball Future Zamasu. Even with a pipe through his chest and with his immortality a secret Goku reverted to SSJ1 rather than base to deal with him. So I think he’s above SSJ2 Goku but logically below SSJ3. He stops at Majin Boo.

SSJ1 Goku Black got his ass handed to him by SSJ2 Vegeta, who seemingly kept the powers from his Battle of Gods tantrum. I think Goku Black can beat Gotenks-Boo or Gohan-Boo, but only after a hard fight.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:13 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm
Anyone else I think they solo that list. #17 and Gohan were Blue tier, and #18 and Piccolo seemed to catch up given the in sync fighting style with their respective partners.
Small point here: I don't think that should be indicative of the partner's strength, considering Gohan had little difficulty dealing with 73 with Piccolo's power. Shimorekka later on also claims Gohan is the strongest.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:52 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:13 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm
Anyone else I think they solo that list. #17 and Gohan were Blue tier, and #18 and Piccolo seemed to catch up given the in sync fighting style with their respective partners.
Small point here: I don't think that should be indicative of the partner's strength, considering Gohan had little difficulty dealing with 73 with Piccolo's power. Shimorekka later on also claims Gohan is the strongest.
Just want to point out though, that Gohan dominated 73 with Piccolo's power before the time skip (aka, before the time period when everyone got way stronger). The gap between Gohan and Piccolo definitely got shorter after the time skip if we base it on the fact that they could work together in sync. Gohan should still be stronger though, as pointed out by Shimorekka.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:58 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:52 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:13 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:45 pm
Anyone else I think they solo that list. #17 and Gohan were Blue tier, and #18 and Piccolo seemed to catch up given the in sync fighting style with their respective partners.
Small point here: I don't think that should be indicative of the partner's strength, considering Gohan had little difficulty dealing with 73 with Piccolo's power. Shimorekka later on also claims Gohan is the strongest.
Just want to point out though, that Gohan dominated 73 with Piccolo's power before the time skip (aka, before the time period when everyone got way stronger). The gap between Gohan and Piccolo definitely got shorter after the time skip if we base it on the fact that they could work together in sync. Gohan should still be stronger though, as pointed out by Shimorekka.
Their combo moves were focused on Piccolo's techniques serving as a distraction for Gohan's superior strength, though. The only time Piccolo's attack was the forerunner was when 73 was using the Namekian's power.

I think there's a better argument to be made on 17 and 18 having comparable power considering their combo attacks actually rely on precise timing and simultaneous strikes.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:15 pm

If Saonel, Pilina, and Piccolo all fused together (and they had time to maximize the power of their fusion), who is the strongest character they could beat?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:15 pm
If Saonel, Pilina, and Piccolo all fused together (and they had time to maximize the power of their fusion), who is the strongest character they could beat?
I'd imagine they would beat anyone below true blue tier in the ToP. But no one of Blue tier. Genuine Blue tier. Like, not Gohan pushed back Koichiarator blue tier, but Golden Freeza 'blue' tier.

Oof many tiers :lol:
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:17 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:58 pm
dragonball0900 wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:52 pm
Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:13 pm


Small point here: I don't think that should be indicative of the partner's strength, considering Gohan had little difficulty dealing with 73 with Piccolo's power. Shimorekka later on also claims Gohan is the strongest.
Just want to point out though, that Gohan dominated 73 with Piccolo's power before the time skip (aka, before the time period when everyone got way stronger). The gap between Gohan and Piccolo definitely got shorter after the time skip if we base it on the fact that they could work together in sync. Gohan should still be stronger though, as pointed out by Shimorekka.
Their combo moves were focused on Piccolo's techniques serving as a distraction for Gohan's superior strength, though. The only time Piccolo's attack was the forerunner was when 73 was using the Namekian's power.

I think there's a better argument to be made on 17 and 18 having comparable power considering their combo attacks actually rely on precise timing and simultaneous strikes.
Yeah, I was mostly talking about the fight with Saganbo. Piccolo was able to hold his own in the fight where the much stronger Gohan was struggling as well, which meant Piccolo was at least not one shot material for Gohan, and was able to work together with him, despite losing.

I have to agree with you that Androids 17 and 18 do have comparable power. People usually refuse to accept that 18 managed to get close to 17's strength in the manga, when plenty of information tells us that was the case. Moro was impressed by both of them, which meant 17 and 18 are now on the same tier, with Piccolo being much stronger than them, and Gohan being even stronger.

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