The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:56 pm

SSJ Goten [post-rosat] vs. Bojack [pre-transformation].

Bojack can't transform

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:30 pm

And here's 3 more to add to that, for the day:

Kid Buu VS Kibito Kai (with Kaioken x3)
[Kaioken has no drain though. No candy beam, absorbing, blowing up of planets]

Android 17 VS Mecha Freeza
[But 17 can only use his tongue to kill, just like how Tao did to General Blue]

Base Gogeta (Buu Saga) VS Movie 10 LSSJ Broly

former versus:

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:38 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
  • Base Bojack can beat any version of SS Goten.
  • SS Gogeta can beat even SS3 Gotenks.
Angelus wrote:
  • Kibitoshin needs kaioken x10 to be a match for Pure Boo.
  • I don't think No.17 can seriously win against Freeza with just his tongue. Maybe not even against Yamcha.
  • Base Gogeta is weaker than SS Gotenks, but is still in the top of SS2-tier. I guess he can beat Broly with mid-difficulty.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:55 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
  • Base Bojack can beat any version of SS Goten.
  • SS Gogeta can beat even SS3 Gotenks.
SS3 Gotenks >>> SS Gogeta

The kids aren't over 8x weaker than their fathers

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by singsing » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:27 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
  • Base Bojack can beat any version of SS Goten.
  • SS Gogeta can beat even SS3 Gotenks.
SS3 Gotenks >>> SS Gogeta

The kids aren't over 8x weaker than their fathers
SS Gogeta >>>> LSSJG4 Gotenks.

Is replacing an argument with a bunch of arrows how debates work now?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:32 pm

Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks vs. Super Saiyan 1 Gogeta
Gogeta. I think Gogeta is a little over x2 stronger in the same form (so SS Gogeta >= SS2 Gotenks), and he is obviously more skilled as well.
SSJ Goten [post-rosat] vs. Bojack [pre-transformation].
I place Bojack's initial state on par with the Perfect Cell that fought Goku. At most, I see Goten as being on par with the Goku that suppressed Cell kicked the shit out of, so Bojack takes this.
Kid Buu VS Kibito Kai (with Kaioken x3)
[Kaioken has no drain though. No candy beam, absorbing, blowing up of planets]
Kibitoshin causes minor annoyance to Pure Buu with his telekinesis. Buu eventually breaks free and pounds Kibitoshin into the dirt.
Android 17 VS Mecha Freeza
[But 17 can only use his tongue to kill, just like how Tao did to General Blue]
I think the gap between 17 and Mecha Freeza is about as large as the gap between Tao and Blue, so...
Base Gogeta (Buu Saga) VS Movie 10 LSSJ Broly
I dunno. I'm not sure how to handle fusion SS logic.
Hide
Tambourine VS 22nd WMAT Goku, Tenshinhan, Jackie Chun, Krillin, Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Man-Wolf, Pamput, and King Chappa
[BUT IMMEDIATELY after the 22nd WMAT ended. Meaning, the 22nd WMAT participants are still tired from their matches. No flying.]
Roshi would be relatively fresh, and I think he alone is stronger than Tambourine at full power. Add in the other guys, and they can overwhelm him.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:45 pm

singsing wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
The kids aren't over 8x weaker than their fathers
SS Gogeta >>>> LSSJG4 Gotenks.

Is replacing an argument with a bunch of arrows how debates work now?
I also elaborated on how the kids aren't that weak compared to Goku and Vegeta. That's how debates work, yes. If he asks for evidence, I'll provide it.
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Base Gogeta (Buu Saga) VS Movie 10 LSSJ Broly
I dunno. I'm not sure how to handle fusion SS logic.
-I've been thinking it over, fusions don't really need different SSJ multipliers. Base fusions can be weak, but (imo) should atleast be stronger than the fusees individual SSJ forms. So Base Gotenks should be > SSJ Goten/Trunks at least. But I'm using the 50x for them again.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:40 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:The kids aren't over 8x weaker than their fathers.
I would like to see evidences supporting this claim. You mean, Goten and Trunks somehow were born in the same way that Gohan did (surpassing Goku's strenght for a moment)? This is an idea I would apply for Gotenks though.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:04 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:The kids aren't over 8x weaker than their fathers.
I would like to see evidences supporting this claim. You mean, Goten and Trunks somehow were born in the same way that Gohan did (surpassing Goku's strenght for a moment)? This is an idea I would apply for Gotenks though.
Training/age means nothing in DB, plot determines power.

1. Goten made Gohan sweat in a sparring match and forced him into the air. (keep in mind that Goku who was ~2x Butta/Jheese was dominating them and didn't even break a sweat) Which means that Goten isn't even 2x weaker than Gohan.

Image

You can literally see the effort being put into guarding his hits. If Gohan was over 2x Goten it would be effortless.

2. Trunks landed a hit on Vegeta and took a reflex punch from him with not even a bruise

3. The daizenshuu even goes as far as saying Goten = Gohan in terms of power, which is supported by the manga.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:29 am

You'll never know if Gohan is holding back or not unless noted. Would we have ever knew that Perfect Cell was just playing around with Goku the entire time? Cell was putting a lot of effort against Goku by just looking at the drawings. But then Cell wasn't even at full power.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:37 am

Gohan does say the kids will surpass him pretty soon if he doesn't start training, so there's that.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:39 am

Angelus wrote:You'll never know if Gohan is holding back or not unless noted. Would we have ever knew that Perfect Cell was just playing around with Goku the entire time? Cell was putting a lot of effort against Goku by just looking at the drawings. But then Cell wasn't even at full power.
There's a difference; Cell is noted to be suppressed against Goku since he powers up later, Gohan is never shown to power up. Furthermore; Cell was suppressed to fight Goku for fun, Gohan would have no reason to be suppressed since he's training.

It's never noted that Gohan is holding back, so there's no reason to assume he is.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:26 am

And another thing, remember when Goku was fighting Tien in the 22nd WMAT? At first Goku was fighting at "match level" until he realized that Tien seemed like he was actually trying to kill Goku. That's when Goku switched to "combat level". From looking at the drawings and/or the animation, we would have never been able to tell if he was at "match level" or "combat level" if Goku never mentioned it. Yes, Goku can be at full power even at match level but that full power is different from a full power combat level, if that makes any sense. Yes, it won't be "full power" if he was holding back but what I meant is he was giving it his all for that "Setting". That could be the case for Gohan too. Like I said, we won't know if Gohan was holding back against Goten or not. However, we can assume that since they were sparring, and Goten is his little brother, and Gohan isn't actually trying to kill Goten, that this may be Gohan giving it his all for a sparring "setting". They're just fighting hand-to-hand after all. Gohan never made it a point to go kill mode and spam ki blasts and go for beam struggles and etc.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by CatouttaHell » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:00 am

Obligatory post that the Daizenshuu stated that Goten rivals Gohan in power since people on here are pretty accepting of the guidebooks. (:

Don't know where the Daizenshuu translations that used to be on Kanzentai went so I can't post proof but that was definitely there...
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Angelus » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:15 am

Yawn... here's a couple for the evening:

SSJ Future Gohan (TV Special, one armed) VS SSJ Goku (Namek Saga, first transformation)

Base Vegeta (Post-ROSAT Day 1) VS Base Future Trunks (Cell Games)
[This is Vegeta before he went in the ROSAT for a 2nd day]

22nd WMAT Goku (wearing Saiyan Armor) VS Drum

End of Z Piccolo VS Suppressed Perfect Cell (his first appearance level when he was fighting Pre-2nd Day ROSAT ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Future Trunks)

former versus:
CatouttaHell wrote:Obligatory post that the Daizenshuu stated that Goten rivals Gohan in power since people on here are pretty accepting of the guidebooks. (:

Don't know where the Daizenshuu translations that used to be on Kanzentai went so I can't post proof but that was definitely there...
Oh. Well.

Does "rivals" in this case mean that Gohan and Goten's gap in power be similar to Full Power Perfect Cell and MSSJ/FPSSJ Gohan's in the Cell Games?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Darkron2151 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:26 am

Angelus wrote:Yawn... here's a couple for the evening:

SSJ Future Gohan (TV Special, one armed) VS SSJ Goku (Namek Saga, first transformation)

Base Vegeta (Post-ROSAT Day 1) VS Base Future Trunks (Cell Games)
[This is Vegeta before he went in the ROSAT for a 2nd day]

22nd WMAT Goku (wearing Saiyan Armor) VS Drum

End of Z Piccolo VS Suppressed Perfect Cell (his first appearance level when he was fighting Pre-2nd Day ROSAT ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Future Trunks)
1. Gohan wins effortlessly. In the Special, he was holding his own against both Androids. Goku has no chance.

2. Vegeta gets wrecked. Vegeta was pretty confident that he surpassed the power Cell showed him when they last fought and also the level Goku showed at Karin's Tower, and Cell Games Trunks was implied to be similar in power to that.

3. What does the Saiyan Armor matter in this fight? He doesn't die immediately? He'll end up dying eventually.

4. IMO, he was already at that level during the Buu Arc. EOZ Piccolo absolutely wrecks Cell.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:09 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Training/age means nothing in DB, plot determines power.
You know, training and age are part of plot. But if you think they are not relevant to this discussion, fine.
1. Goten made Gohan sweat in a sparring match and forced him into the air. (keep in mind that Goku who was ~2x Butta/Jheese was dominating them and didn't even break a sweat) Which means that Goten isn't even 2x weaker than Gohan. You can literally see the effort being put into guarding his hits. If Gohan was over 2x Goten it would be effortless.

2. Trunks landed a hit on Vegeta and took a reflex punch from him with not even a bruise

3. The daizenshuu even goes as far as saying Goten = Gohan in terms of power, which is supported by the manga.
1 and 3 practically are referring to the same point of story. I don't think it is a good idea to compare the kids with a Super Saiyan that fights criminals and hasn't been training for 7 years. I would say after finishing their training to the 25th Budokai Goten and Trunks even surpassed Gohan at that point (before he retrieved some of his old powers, of course).

As for Vegeta, Evil Boo did the same thing with Base Trunks. Not exactly an evidence of power difference, I guess.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:15 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: You know, training and age are part of plot. But if you think they are not relevant to this discussion, fine.
Yeah they are, but plot itself outweighs training and age in power, logically Goten should be as strong as Kid Gohan who didn't train, but he's not.
Hugo Boss wrote: 1 and 3 practically are referring to the same point of story. I don't think it is a good idea to compare the kids with a Super Saiyan that fights criminals and hasn't been training for 7 years. I would say after finishing their training to the 25th Budokai Goten and Trunks even surpassed Gohan at that point (before he retrieved some of his old powers, of course).

As for Vegeta, Evil Boo did the same thing with Base Trunks. Not exactly an evidence of power difference, I guess.
The daiz also mentions Gohan didn't lose any power over the 7 years, only no Ssjin 2 rage boosts. So Ssjin Goten = Ssjin CG Kid Gohan in terms of power

Evil Buu punching Trunks was gag... unless you actually think Trunks is now Ssjin 3 Gotenks tier...

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:55 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:The daiz also mentions Gohan didn't lose any power over the 7 years, only no Ssjin 2 rage boosts. So Ssjin Goten = Ssjin CG Kid Gohan in terms of power

Evil Buu punching Trunks was gag... unless you actually think Trunks is now Ssjin 3 Gotenks tier...
Vegeta punching Trunks was gag too, to make Trunks cry and Vegeta promissing a park visit. I don't interpret Daizenshuu's quote that way, so no evidence whatsoever. The manga pretty much depicts Gohan as a shell of his former self, but you could say he has a lot of hidden potential.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:The daiz also mentions Gohan didn't lose any power over the 7 years, only no Ssjin 2 rage boosts. So Ssjin Goten = Ssjin CG Kid Gohan in terms of power

Evil Buu punching Trunks was gag... unless you actually think Trunks is now Ssjin 3 Gotenks tier...
Vegeta punching Trunks was gag too, to make Trunks cry and Vegeta promissing a park visit. I don't interpret Daizenshuu's quote that way, so no evidence whatsoever. The manga pretty much depicts Gohan as a shell of his former self, but you could say he has a lot of hidden potential.
It literally says Goten's power isn't the least bit inferior to Gohan's. So saying you don't interpret that way and saying there's no evidence doesn't help your argument.

Vegeta punching Trunks wasn't gag, nothing funny about that scene.

There's really nothing going for Goten and Trunks being weak besides "oh well they're young and didn't train a lot so they're over 10 weaker than goku and vegata"

But there is Goten forcing Gohan into the air and making him sweat. Even if Gohan was a little rusty I doubt it would make him so weak that he struggles with someone multifolds below him.

Unless you have an argument based on statements/feats explaining how Goten and Trunks are over 8x weaker than Goku and Vegeta besides "they're young" than I see no reason to assume they're so weak.

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