The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[SupremeKai25]

You beat me on posting that.

Is RoF also filler?

Someone pick up that phone I called it "it's not filler cause it's referenced in an arc which was based off the outline" pedantry.
The line of dialogue is toei filler.

Filler is shorthand for
"stupid Toei invented bullshit that isn't in the outline of the original author and thus not canon in any meaningful way and even though it doesn't fit the definition of filler you would full well know what someone meant when they called it filler unless your preference for the anime led you to being disingenuous and pedantic"

No but Goku fighting 4th form freeza in base who was simultaneously stronger than ss gohan in his first form is
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... continuity and been quietly retconned out.

It's literally not filler dude. DBS anime came out before the manga, which means that the manga isn't the ultimate canon. The anime canon is just as valid, if not even more important, than the manga canon, thus the Copy Vegeta arc is indeed canon in the anime continuity and directly referenced in the Future Trunks arc.

[Sūpāsaiya]

One faithful day, Goten and Trunks are brought to a different dimension, in which a god-like figure puts them through insane circumstances and challenges their ability. They must go through a series of battles one after another, each with varying restrictions. They are informed that the fighters they're going up against aren't real, so they can let loose and go for the kill. After each battle, their strength is returned to normal. How many wins do they get?

First Battle:
Base Goten and Trunks (25th Budokai) VS. Final Form Freeza (Namek, 50%)

Second Battle:
Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Spopovitch, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon and Babidi
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Third Battle:
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta (Fat Boo Saga)
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Fourth Battle:
Base Gotenks (Post Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat)
(Infinite Fusion Time for both versions of Gotenks)

Fifth Battle:
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Potential Unleashed Gohan (Fusion Saga) VS. Bootenks
(No energy consumption for Gotenks, Goku and Vegeta. Unlimited Fusion Time for Gotenks. Bootenks is going for the kill.)

Not expecting many to think they'd get mostly wins... almost forgot to mention that this is anime.

[TobyS]

One faithful day, Goten and Trunks are brought to a different dimension, in which a god-like figure puts them through insane circumstances and challenges their ability. They must go through a series of battles one after another, each with varying restrictions. They are informed that the fighters they're going up against aren't real, so they can let loose and go for the kill. After each battle, their strength is returned to normal. How many wins do they get?

First Battle:
Base Goten and Trunks (25th Budokai) VS. Final Form Freeza (Namek, 50%)

Second Battle:
Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Spopovitch, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon and Babidi
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Third Battle:
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta (Fat Boo Saga)
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Fourth Battle:
Base Gotenks (Post Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat)
(Infinite Fusion Time for both versions of Gotenks)

Fifth Battle:
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Potential Unleashed Gohan (Fusion Saga) VS. Bootenks
(No energy consumption for Gotenks, Goku and Vegeta. Unlimited Fusion Time for Gotenks. Bootenks is going for the kill.)

Not expecting many to think they'd get mostly wins... almost forgot to mention that this is anime.

BoG confirms base saiyans can't kill Freeza. Maybe two adult Saiyans could do it together, but they might need kaioken. but not the squirts... Ah 50% maybe the two of them can manage something...

For the second fight I'm not sure. It depends on if Gotenks is as strong as a SS1 adult based on his showing against fat buu which was half a gag or wether the fan theory about it being as strong as the strongest form of the individual fusees is. It depends on the gap between adult base saiyans and ss kids...

They can't get the light swallowed by Yakon but they can't light up the dark area. And babidis spells are an X factor. Puipui and the humans are a joke. He could probably kiai them to death.
If they aren't on the dark planet I think Gotenks can take it. Especially so if he's able to take out babidi nerfing yakon down to ez mode. They may even not wanna fight anymore.

As Gotenks is about on par with SS3 Goku imo. It's fusions massive multiplier and the ss x50 one. Goku think they can beat him and doesn't know they will ever get SS2 or 3. So he beats them.

The two SS2s or SS3 and SS2 might put up a better fight.

It's hard to swallow but he's implied to be stronger post. There's lots of threads on this. My thinking is I lowball em before they go in and don't think they are great compared to adult Saiyans so they can gain a lot individually and that pays dividends with the fusion multiplier.

So the next fight is weird. Added together Gohan and Gotenks are stronger then Gotenks buu by a lot. By as much as Gohan was stronger than super buu. Sans piccolo.

However buu doesn't tire the normal way so the other fighters can't jump in to help Gohan as he drops to his level.

Their only chance is fusion dance or a spirit bomb or something. I think even a failed gohanks could take it in SS3. So I actually think they could do it if Goku uses IT and especially if vegeta is willing to do it

I don't know how it being the anime affects it. Vegetto is more powerful in base then in the manga due to Toei bullshit so perhaps this would carry over to Gogeta or gohanks. and Goku and geets aren't as easily instantly murdered by buu as they should have been so I guess it works in their favour.

[Grimlock]

Since Movie 14 doesn't confirm anything about "base Saiyans and Freeza", surely Goten and Trunks can manage that one.

[TobyS]

Since Movie 14 doesn't confirm anything about "base Saiyans and Freeza", surely Goten and Trunks can manage that one.

Beerus states Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza

"Whis here tells me, you're the one who slayed that bastard Frieza?... It doesn't seem possible that you could defeat him as you are, but I understand that you are capable of transformation, into one of these so-called "Super Saiyans" "

Goku doesn't contradict this.

SS is a whopping x50 multiplier, he needed kaioken x20 to fight 50% freeza.

Goku could still have gotten like x40 stronger since Namek and his SS1-3 forms exponentially more so and still be weaker than Freeza.
Nothing contradicts this outside of other non canon movies and filler.

Together and with Freeza at 50% it is perhaps possible depending on how you rate the kids in relation to the adults.

[ZombieVito]

No but Goku fighting 4th form freeza in base who was simultaneously stronger than ss gohan in his first form is
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... continuity and been quietly retconned out.

This is bullshit and headcanon.

Base Goku is shown to be strong in the preparation for the ToP by fighting evenly with a stronger Boo and resisting Piccolo's charged shockwave.

Nothing has been retconned.

One faithful day, Goten and Trunks are brought to a different dimension, in which a god-like figure puts them through insane circumstances and challenges their ability. They must go through a series of battles one after another, each with varying restrictions. They are informed that the fighters they're going up against aren't real, so they can let loose and go for the kill. After each battle, their strength is returned to normal. How many wins do they get?

First Battle:
Base Goten and Trunks (25th Budokai) VS. Final Form Freeza (Namek, 50%)

Second Battle:
Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Spopovitch, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon and Babidi
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Third Battle:
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta (Fat Boo Saga)
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Fourth Battle:
Base Gotenks (Post Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat)
(Infinite Fusion Time for both versions of Gotenks)

Fifth Battle:
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Potential Unleashed Gohan (Fusion Saga) VS. Bootenks
(No energy consumption for Gotenks, Goku and Vegeta. Unlimited Fusion Time for Gotenks. Bootenks is going for the kill.)

Not expecting many to think they'd get mostly wins... almost forgot to mention that this is anime.

Freza kills them easily.
Gotenks gets killed by Babidi's magic.
Gotenks is stronger but a complete noob at fighting. He loses.
SS Gotenks finger flicks.
Piccolo put it best. Boo isn't the fighter to go down by people ganging up on him.

[TobyS]

No but Goku fighting 4th form freeza in base who was simultaneously stronger than ss gohan in his first form is
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... continuity and been quietly retconned out.

This is bullshit and headcanon.

Base Goku is shown to be strong in the preparation for the ToP by fighting evenly with a stronger Boo and resisting Piccolo's charged shockwave.

Nothing has been retconned.

]

Which again, didn't appear in the shared Toriyama outline nor as a result in the more-supervised-by toriyama manga.

The anime is canon in that it's "an" "official" product, and each episode is in "continuity" with the last, like how episode 1 of GT is Canon to episode 2 despite the whole thing being a side story.

But it's not meaningfully canon in that it's not the idea of the original author.

[Grimlock]

Beerus states Goku couldn't have defeated Freeza

No. Beerus heard Goku couldn't defeat Freeza and had to transform back in Freeza saga. Also, Beerus didn't know Goku's power to say if at that moment he could or couldn't defeat Freeza.

It doesn't seem possible that you could defeat him as you are, but I understand that you are capable of transformation, into one of these so-called "Super Saiyans" "

Keyword here is "seem". It's Beerus' first impressions on Goku. And then he proceeds to state what was a fact back in Freeza saga period.

Goku doesn't contradict this.

There's nothing to contradict.

Goku could still have gotten like x40 stronger since Namek and his SS1-3 forms exponentially more so and still be weaker than Freeza.

That's not how Dragon Ball works. Getting stronger also means surpassing those who are stagnant. Movie 14 base Goku is strong enough to defeat Freeza from Freeza saga, who was stagnant and would only become stronger years later.

[SupremeKai25]

No but Goku fighting 4th form freeza in base who was simultaneously stronger than ss gohan in his first form is
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... continuity and been quietly retconned out.

This is bullshit and headcanon.

Base Goku is shown to be strong in the preparation for the ToP by fighting evenly with a stronger Boo and resisting Piccolo's charged shockwave.

Nothing has been retconned.

]

Which again, didn't appear in the shared Toriyama outline nor as a result in the more-supervised-by toriyama manga.

The anime is canon in that it's "an" "official" product, and each episode is in "continuity" with the last, like how episode 1 of GT is Canon to episode 2 despite the whole thing being a side story.

But it's not meaningfully canon in that it's not the idea of the original author.

Then the manga is also not canon, since it also doesn't follow Toriyama's draft 100%.

[Sūpāsaiya]

One faithful day, Goten and Trunks are brought to a different dimension, in which a god-like figure puts them through insane circumstances and challenges their ability. They must go through a series of battles one after another, each with varying restrictions. They are informed that the fighters they're going up against aren't real, so they can let loose and go for the kill. After each battle, their strength is returned to normal. How many wins do they get?

First Battle:
Base Goten and Trunks (25th Budokai) VS. Final Form Freeza (Namek, 50%)

Second Battle:
Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Spopovitch, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon and Babidi
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Third Battle:
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta (Fat Boo Saga)
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Fourth Battle:
Base Gotenks (Post Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat)
(Infinite Fusion Time for both versions of Gotenks)

Fifth Battle:
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Potential Unleashed Gohan (Fusion Saga) VS. Bootenks
(No energy consumption for Gotenks, Goku and Vegeta. Unlimited Fusion Time for Gotenks. Bootenks is going for the kill.)

Not expecting many to think they'd get mostly wins... almost forgot to mention that this is anime.

BoG confirms base saiyans can't kill Freeza. Maybe two adult Saiyans could do it together, but they might need kaioken. but not the squirts... Ah 50% maybe the two of them can manage something...

For the second fight I'm not sure. It depends on if Gotenks is as strong as a SS1 adult based on his showing against fat buu which was half a gag or wether the fan theory about it being as strong as the strongest form of the individual fusees is. It depends on the gap between adult base saiyans and ss kids...

They can't get the light swallowed by Yakon but they can't light up the dark area. And babidis spells are an X factor. Puipui and the humans are a joke. He could probably kiai them to death.
If they aren't on the dark planet I think Gotenks can take it. Especially so if he's able to take out babidi nerfing yakon down to ez mode. They may even not wanna fight anymore.

As Gotenks is about on par with SS3 Goku imo. It's fusions massive multiplier and the ss x50 one. Goku think they can beat him and doesn't know they will ever get SS2 or 3. So he beats them.

The two SS2s or SS3 and SS2 might put up a better fight.

It's hard to swallow but he's implied to be stronger post. There's lots of threads on this. My thinking is I lowball em before they go in and don't think they are great compared to adult Saiyans so they can gain a lot individually and that pays dividends with the fusion multiplier.

So the next fight is weird. Added together Gohan and Gotenks are stronger then Gotenks buu by a lot. By as much as Gohan was stronger than super buu. Sans piccolo.

However buu doesn't tire the normal way so the other fighters can't jump in to help Gohan as he drops to his level.

Their only chance is fusion dance or a spirit bomb or something. I think even a failed gohanks could take it in SS3. So I actually think they could do it if Goku uses IT and especially if vegeta is willing to do it

I don't know how it being the anime affects it. Vegetto is more powerful in base then in the manga due to Toei bullshit so perhaps this would carry over to Gogeta or gohanks. and Goku and geets aren't as easily instantly murdered by buu as they should have been so I guess it works in their favour.

Regarding the "Freeza VS. Base Saiyans" thing, that was a completely casual Goku. To say he's at full power when introducing himself is kind of out there. It's also contradicted by the base Saiyans surpassing characters STRONGER than Freeza in the Boo arc. For example, Goku and Vegeta surpassing Shin is quite evident when Shin is shitting himself when Pui Pui shows up. Now, a lot of people sleep on Pui Pui simply because he got dominated by Vegeta, but that's just proof of Vegeta's strength. Even after receiving Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's energy back at the tournament, Babidi and Dabura were confident that Pui Pui could take them all on his own without trouble.

As for Trunks and Goten in comparison to Namek Freeza, they actually put up a good fight against Android #18 surprisingly. While restricted in the Mighty Mask costume, the both of them took turns swapping hands with her. There's nothing to imply #18 would be heavily suppressed against them when she appears to be completely serious, even taking damage and sweating. When they went Super Saiyan, Goten told Trunks to hold back, and he confirmed he would, and even so #18 barely avoided and was shitting herself.

Goten and Trunks could very well be beyond Namek Freeza.

[Grimlock]

It's also contradicted by Tarble OVA, where Goku shows disappointment upon learning Abo and Cado were at Freeza level.

There's no logic at all assuming characters don't get strong enough to not need a transformation just because at one point they needed it. Have they been watching/reading a different kind of Dragon Ball? That's the only explanation I can think of.

[Sūpāsaiya]

It's also contradicted by Tarble OVA, where Goku shows disappointment upon learning Abo and Cado were at Freeza level.

There's no logic at all assuming characters don't get strong enough to not need a transformation just because at one point they needed it. Have they been watching/reading a different kind of Dragon Ball? That's the only explanation I can think of.

Yeah, almost forgot about that. It's also canon to Super as shown when the bring up Tarble. Abo and Kado also resorted to cloning themselves to press Goten and Trunks who were earlier slapping them, and later slapped all the clones once Gohan coached them. It was implied they had forgotten basic fundamentals of combat and were still fighting several Freeza level fighters.

[TobyS]

This is bullshit and headcanon.

Base Goku is shown to be strong in the preparation for the ToP by fighting evenly with a stronger Boo and resisting Piccolo's charged shockwave.

Nothing has been retconned.

]

Which again, didn't appear in the shared Toriyama outline nor as a result in the more-supervised-by toriyama manga.

The anime is canon in that it's "an" "official" product, and each episode is in "continuity" with the last, like how episode 1 of GT is Canon to episode 2 despite the whole thing being a side story.

But it's not meaningfully canon in that it's not the idea of the original author.

Then the manga is also not canon, since it also doesn't follow Toriyama's draft 100%.

You could make a case that neither are canon only the outline is.

I'd be fine with this.

But unlike the anime toriyama works closely on the manga with Toyo, his hand picked successor, redraws entire pages sometimes and praises his original ideas. Whereas he has very little to do with the anime.

Shuiesha regularly advertise stuff using manga content, Toriyama involvement is always boasted when it happens.

Toriyama coming out and saying the manga is canon would only hurt the animes sales, and toriyama doesn't give a fuck about that sort of thing anyway.

You can say you prefer the anime, and well it's a free country I guess... but at this point to pretend the manga isn't clearly more in line with the original creators artistic vision for the franchise is borderline dishonesty based on personal bias.

When people say filler they often mean Toei invented bullshit, in addition to “original arcs or cutaway scenes to pad time”
When people say canon they often mean “not the original authors works or stated to be explicitly canon by the original author”

If Toriyama ever let's Toyo completely off on his own with no supervision, then I'd see them as being both equal interpretations of an outline. But even then his status as toriyamas successor would make his vision closer to toriyamas then toeis.

[TobyS]

It's also contradicted by Tarble OVA, where Goku shows disappointment upon learning Abo and Cado were at Freeza level.

There's no logic at all assuming characters don't get strong enough to not need a transformation just because at one point they needed it. Have they been watching/reading a different kind of Dragon Ball? That's the only explanation I can think of.

That's a mental assumption. Goku's implicitly disappointed they aren't a match for his SS 1-3/weaker then their enemies in the past.

He already has a tonne of people around him who can challenge him in base.

Obviously the characters get stronger without needing to transform.

Just that Goku hasn't got FIFTY TIMES STRONGER IN BASE since Namek. That's insanely unnecessarily large growth. When being like 20% stronger then someone allows you to dominate.

He could have got like x10 times stronger in the android arc, be x20 stronger coming out of the rosat and be x30 times stronger at Buu and still have wriggle room. You only need to be a bit stronger for it to make a massive difference in ss1 and 2. That's how multiplication work.

[UI Peter]

You beat me on posting that.

Is RoF also filler?

Someone pick up that phone I called it "it's not filler cause it's referenced in an arc which was based off the outline" pedantry.
The line of dialogue is toei filler.

Filler is shorthand for
"stupid Toei invented bullshit that isn't in the outline of the original author and thus not canon in any meaningful way and even though it doesn't fit the definition of filler you would full well know what someone meant when they called it filler unless your preference for the anime led you to being disingenuous and pedantic"

A but Goku fighting 4th form freeza in base who was simultaneously stronger than ss gohan in his first form is
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... continuity and been quietly retconned out.

No it hasn't. Just because something you don't like happens in the series doesn't mean its noncanon/filler. That's just you being biased in favor of the manga (which actually has even more BS than the anime, much of which was from Toyotaro, therefore not from Toriyama's mythical outline, therefore non-canon by your definition).

Base Goku/Vegeta were massively stronger than the rest of the Z fighters in RoF due to Whis training and the SSG into base amp. There's nothing against it, you just don't like it.

[UI Peter]

It's also contradicted by Tarble OVA, where Goku shows disappointment upon learning Abo and Cado were at Freeza level.

There's no logic at all assuming characters don't get strong enough to not need a transformation just because at one point they needed it. Have they been watching/reading a different kind of Dragon Ball? That's the only explanation I can think of.

That's a mental assumption. Goku's implicitly disappointed they aren't a match for his SS 1-3/weaker then their enemies in the past.

He already has a tonne of people around him who can challenge him in base.

Obviously the characters get stronger without needing to transform.

Just that Goku hasn't got FIFTY TIMES STRONGER IN BASE since Namek. That's insanely unnecessarily large growth. When being like 20% stronger then someone allows you to dominate.

He could have got like x10 times stronger in the android arc, be x20 stronger coming out of the rosat and be x30 times stronger at Buu and still have wriggle room. You only need to be a bit stronger for it to make a massive difference in ss1 and 2. That's how multiplication work.

There's nothing suggesting that you're right about this, and there's numerous feats and statements showing that if anything, that's downplay. You only deny it because you don't like the idea.

[TobyS]

Regarding the "Freeza VS. Base Saiyans" thing, that was a completely casual Goku. To say he's at full power when introducing himself is kind of out there. It's also contradicted by the base Saiyans surpassing characters STRONGER than Freeza in the Boo arc. For example, Goku and Vegeta surpassing Shin is quite evident when Shin is shitting himself when Pui Pui shows up. Now, a lot of people sleep on Pui Pui simply because he got dominated by Vegeta, but that's just proof of Vegeta's strength. Even after receiving Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's energy back at the tournament, Babidi and Dabura were confident that Pui Pui could take them all on his own without trouble.

As for Trunks and Goten in comparison to Namek Freeza, they actually put up a good fight against Android #18 surprisingly. While restricted in the Mighty Mask costume, the both of them took turns swapping hands with her. There's nothing to imply #18 would be heavily suppressed against them when she appears to be completely serious, even taking damage and sweating. When they went Super Saiyan, Goten told Trunks to hold back, and he confirmed he would, and even so #18 barely avoided and was shitting herself.

Goten and Trunks could very well be beyond Namek Freeza.

No one's saying Goku was at full power standing around kaiosamas.

Beerus can see Goku is chilling and not flaring up and aura and shit. He's not retarded.

Characters can sense what characters are holding in reserve sometimes.

Kuririn can sense Cell is holding back and that Trunks is hiding a transformation. Korin can tell Cells full power in relation to 50% of Goku's.

We know babidi and Dabra can tell the saiyans are hiding a lot of power when all of them are suppressed to 0. (But not all of it because they aren't like oh shit a SS3! Run!)

We know the ss forms are multipliers and we know SS2 Goku and vegeta at Buu are not much far ahead of SS2 Gohan. They state they are a bit stronger when fighting each other and later Piccolo puts em in the same ballpark so they aren't miles ahead of their cell games selves in equivilant forms.

So they can't be stronger then Piccolo and Kaioshin in base when they weren't before that.

We know from the guidebook that Kibito would be a good fight for Base Gohan. And that Kaioshin is tonnes stronger then him.

We know that Kaioshin can hold SS2 tier people (when mortally wounded as seen in super) down with his tk. While Chaozu couldn't hold Nappa due to the power difference.)

Piccolo is not scared of fighting base saiyans but is piss scared of Kaioshin. (And we know from the original Japanese translations it uses the same phrasing as earlier power comparisons not just talking about godly station)

I'm going off memory here but you can't sense majinised people's chi properly/at all right? Like the two dudes at the tournament.

Goku only makes a power statement about Dabra being like cell when he sees him move to blast Dabra and spit on the others. He then has to revise his estimate upwards when he sees him fight Gohan.

Kaioshin just has massive majin/buu related trauma. His feats, landing and tanking hits against fat Buu put him dimensions above pui pui.

[TobyS]

No it hasn't. Just because something you don't like happens in the series doesn't mean its noncanon/filler. That's just you being biased in favor of the manga (which actually has even more BS than the anime, much of which was from Toyotaro, therefore not from Toriyama's mythical outline, therefore non-canon by your definition).

Base Goku/Vegeta were massively stronger than the rest of the Z fighters in RoF due to Whis training and the SSG into base amp. There's nothing against it, you just don't like it.

Yes it has in the manga because the god absorption didn't happen. And the RoF fight wasn't shown.

There's incidences showing them being comparible to U6 saiyans and Trunks in equivalent forms.

Only the anime has massive inconsistencies with this like the Saiyaman and Trunks stuff matching the regular bases, but then the nonsense monaka-beerus and copy vegeta filler supporting pre retcon rof godly base. But the anime is now doing that less and less with the return of ss1 and red.

People had to invent the silly 2 base theory to justify it rather then admit the Toei writers just didn't have their shit together or bother to ask toriyama for clarification.

You have to say all u6 saiyans are godly tier without godly training for no reason AND Trunks for some reason who doesn't have that excuse.

And that Goku lied to Gohan to stop holding back and Gohan stopped being able to tell that he was or some nonsense.

[Koitsukai]

What is the evidence proving BoG base Goku can take Freeza, anyway? aside of assumptions, of course. BoG said something, Beerus thinks he can't, so what is there proving him wrong beyond doubt?

[Kakkaroto735]

One faithful day, Goten and Trunks are brought to a different dimension, in which a god-like figure puts them through insane circumstances and challenges their ability. They must go through a series of battles one after another, each with varying restrictions. They are informed that the fighters they're going up against aren't real, so they can let loose and go for the kill. After each battle, their strength is returned to normal. How many wins do they get?

First Battle:
Base Goten and Trunks (25th Budokai) VS. Final Form Freeza (Namek, 50%)

Second Battle:
Base Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Spopovitch, Yamu, Pui Pui, Yakon and Babidi
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Third Battle:
Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Goku and Super Saiyan Vegeta (Fat Boo Saga)
(Infinite Fusion Time for Gotenks)

Fourth Battle:
Base Gotenks (Post Rosat) VS. Super Saiyan Gotenks (Pre-Rosat)
(Infinite Fusion Time for both versions of Gotenks)

Fifth Battle:
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Potential Unleashed Gohan (Fusion Saga) VS. Bootenks
(No energy consumption for Gotenks, Goku and Vegeta. Unlimited Fusion Time for Gotenks. Bootenks is going for the kill.)

Not expecting many to think they'd get mostly wins... almost forgot to mention that this is anime.

Freza kills them easily.
Gotenks gets killed by Babidi's magic.
Gotenks is stronger but a complete noob at fighting. He loses.
SS Gotenks finger flicks.
Piccolo put it best. Boo isn't the fighter to go down by people ganging up on him.
[/quote]
I think Goten and Trunks would basically win the first fight but Frieza would wipe the planet out anyway. For the second fight it doesn't make sense that Babidi can kill Gotenks. Base Gotenks is more than enough to beat them. Third battle would end with a win for Gotenks.