The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Zamasu55]

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Gotenks attacks were literally tanked. That requires no skill.

He actually was the first to damage him. And Hit was stomped instantly after his strongest attack failed, 17 was not.

You forget the very important reason that Jiren was off guard.

Thinking about it, Hit actually managed to hit Jiren head on. That's way more impressive.

Yeah but Jiren wasn't nearly as strong as he was against 17...

[ssj3kakarot]

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Gotenks attacks were literally tanked. That requires no skill.

He actually was the first to damage him. And Hit was stomped instantly after his strongest attack failed, 17 was not.

You forget the very important reason that Jiren was off guard.

Thinking about it, Hit actually managed to hit Jiren head on. That's way more impressive.

Yeah but Jiren wasn't nearly as strong as he was against 17...

Hit should definitely be stronger and more well versed than 17 but the show does demonstrate a more powerful Jiren vs 17 and that 17 seemingly does better than Hit. I like to think of it like when Jiren vs Vegeta. Vegeta was "doing" better than Goku but we have a line from Vegeta stating Jiren was sandbagging, then proceeds to stomp vegeta.

Ultimately, I don't think the intent was to show 17 is stronger than Hit. It was to show the immense hax-growth that 17 obtained for no apparent reason other than, plot. Perfect Cell is obsolete if 17 can surpass his power by an astronomical margin. Anyway. I think we are to take away that Jiren is one OP boss who takes out anyone he wants, and that 17 has gotten drastically stronger. I personally believe that Hit would take 17 to the junk-yard.

[zarmack]

Gotenks attacks were literally tanked. That requires no skill.


You forget the very important reason that Jiren was off guard.

Thinking about it, Hit actually managed to hit Jiren head on. That's way more impressive.

Yeah but Jiren wasn't nearly as strong as he was against 17...

Hit should definitely be stronger and more well versed than 17 but the show does demonstrate a more powerful Jiren vs 17 and that 17 seemingly does better than Hit. I like to think of it like when Jiren vs Vegeta. Vegeta was "doing" better than Goku but we have a line from Vegeta stating Jiren was sandbagging, then proceeds to stomp vegeta.

Ultimately, I don't think the intent was to show 17 is stronger than Hit. It was to show the immense hax-growth that 17 obtained for no apparent reason other than, plot. Perfect Cell is obsolete if 17 can surpass his power by an astronomical margin. Anyway. I think we are to take away that Jiren is one OP boss who takes out anyone he wants, and that 17 has gotten drastically stronger. I personally believe that Hit would take 17 to the junk-yard.

That line was actually a mistranslation according to Herms98. Jiren wasn't sandbagging, Vegeta simply taunted him, which got Jiren mad and caused him to try harder against Vegeta (which fits in with feats such as Vegeta creating a Final Flash stronger than the U7 Spirit Bomb).

[Hugo Boss]

Broly vs. Jiren

Both are said to be stronger than the God of Destruction of their respective universes, but which one would win? I honestly think Broly is a bit stronger but Jiren is far more experienced in combat.

[p-hyvo]

Broly vs. Jiren

Both are said to be stronger than the God of Destruction of their respective universes, but which one would win? I honestly think Broly is a bit stronger but Jiren is far more experienced in combat.

I saw an interview of toyotaro where he said that jiren is stronger but not by much.
Anyway, I have to verify if it is official or fake, so for now broly should be stronger

[RecolorSaiyan]

Anime Jiren beats Broly

Broly beats Manga Jiren


I have no idea overall cause Toriyama's draft is a huge mystery

[ZombieVito]

Broly vs. Jiren

Both are said to be stronger than the God of Destruction of their respective universes, but which one would win? I honestly think Broly is a bit stronger but Jiren is far more experienced in combat.

Broly was said to maybe be stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is stronger than Beerus so he wins.

[PFM18]

Broly vs. Jiren

Both are said to be stronger than the God of Destruction of their respective universes, but which one would win? I honestly think Broly is a bit stronger but Jiren is far more experienced in combat.

Broly was said to maybe be stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is stronger than Beerus so he wins.

Broly was said to be probably stronger than Beerus, not maybe. Broly was said to be the strongest foe they have ever faced in the promotional material, and Freeza says in the Light Novel that Broly is the strongest, too.

So he wins.

Broly vs. Jiren

Both are said to be stronger than the God of Destruction of their respective universes, but which one would win? I honestly think Broly is a bit stronger but Jiren is far more experienced in combat.

I saw an interview of toyotaro where he said that jiren is stronger but not by much.
Anyway, I have to verify if it is official or fake, so for now broly should be stronger

You're going to have to post a source if you are going to make claims about Toyotaro making a statement in an interview. Even if you haven't verified it, you should provide the source if you are going to make such a claim. I've never heard of Toyotaro saying such a thing.

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Why would we believe that Gotenks isn't that good? What reason do we have to believe that's the case? We never get any indication that he got weaker from the Buu arc or anything like that. Goku fights Final Form Freeza who dominated everybody in his first form, is Freeza not that good? Beerus(albeit suppressed) fought Base Goku and was entertained by the fight, is he also not that good? What about Goku being impressed that Buu was able to improve enough from training to compete with his Base form? Does Goku suddenly have no idea how to sense ki? Goku's SSJ was stated to be as strong as SSG during BoG, and all of this is an extension of that.

Obviously ToP Gohan is astronomically stronger than he was in the Buu arc. What does Basil have to do with Super characters not being vastly stronger than their Z counterparts? Just because Basil had fought Base Goku and didn't instantly die?

3. Base Kale was under a lot of anxiety and nervousness when she fought Napapa. She was later shown (when she gains more confidence) to have a stronger base than Caulifla (who has a higher base than Cabba, who's base was equal to U6 arc Vegeta's, who's base was stronger than BoG SSG Goku), since Kale's SSJ1 > Cauifla's SSJ2.

I'm baffled that you continue to perpetuate this incredibly unsupported notion that Base Goku>BoG SSG Goku. Oh, and Kale's base is obviously not stronger than Caulifla's. You make a false equivalency as though Kale and Caulifla's SSJ forms are equivalent. Kale's SSJ is clearly superior, being it is that "Broly" type SSJ, and officially called "Berserker SSJ." Completely different from normal SSJ.

[zarmack]

I'm baffled that you continue to perpetuate this incredibly unsupported notion that Base Goku>BoG SSG Goku. Oh, and Kale's base is obviously not stronger than Caulifla's. You make a false equivalency as though Kale and Caulifla's SSJ forms are equivalent. Kale's SSJ is clearly superior, being it is that "Broly" type SSJ, and officially called "Berserker SSJ." Completely different from normal SSJ.

1. You have never given any counter evidence for Post-BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

2. Kale and Broly's yellow haired forms in Super are literally just normal SSJ1, not some special unique form like Berzerk or Rage. So that means that Kale's base is greater than Caulfila's (and arguably Goku's & Vegeta's too before ep.122).

[p-hyvo]

I'm baffled that you continue to perpetuate this incredibly unsupported notion that Base Goku>BoG SSG Goku. Oh, and Kale's base is obviously not stronger than Caulifla's. You make a false equivalency as though Kale and Caulifla's SSJ forms are equivalent. Kale's SSJ is clearly superior, being it is that "Broly" type SSJ, and officially called "Berserker SSJ." Completely different from normal SSJ.

1. You have never given any counter evidence for Post-BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

2. Kale and Broly's yellow haired forms in Super are literally just normal SSJ1, not some special unique form like Berzerk or Rage. So that means that Kale's base is greater than Caulfila's (and arguably Goku's & Vegeta's too before ep.122).

Ssj Kale was on par with ssj2 caulifla, basing on the reaction caulifla had seeing ssj2 kale.
So yes, kale>caulifla in base. But not stronger than goku/Vegeta, never

[Tai Lung]

Next Battle
Zamasu of Present VS Supreme Kais of U7
Frost VS Katopesla
Cocotte VS Kaseral
Pan (GT) VS Hop and Sorrel
Trio de Dangers VS Goku SSJ4

[ZombieVito]

Broly was said to be probably stronger than Beerus, not maybe. Broly was said to be the strongest foe they have ever faced in the promotional material, and Freeza says in the Light Novel that Broly is the strongest, too.

So he wins.

Maybe or probably. It's semantics.

This is a rare occurrence of the promotional material directly contradicting both the film and other mediums. Broly was not confirmed to be stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is confirmed to have surpassed the GoD tier.

Next Battle
Zamasu of Present VS Supreme Kais of U7
Frost VS Katopesla
Cocotte VS Kaseral
Pan (GT) VS Hop and Sorrel
Trio de Dangers VS Goku SSJ4

Zamasu literally doesn't even need to use 1% of his full power to kill them all. Throw all the other Kaioshins from all the other universes and it would still not matter.
Katopesla with his Ultimate form gave SS Vegeta more of a fight so he wins.
Kaseral wins this unless Cocotte traps him in a dimension or something.
Hop and Sorrel.
Trío de Dangers.

[PFM18]

I'm baffled that you continue to perpetuate this incredibly unsupported notion that Base Goku>BoG SSG Goku. Oh, and Kale's base is obviously not stronger than Caulifla's. You make a false equivalency as though Kale and Caulifla's SSJ forms are equivalent. Kale's SSJ is clearly superior, being it is that "Broly" type SSJ, and officially called "Berserker SSJ." Completely different from normal SSJ.

1. You have never given any counter evidence for Post-BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

2. Kale and Broly's yellow haired forms in Super are literally just normal SSJ1, not some special unique form like Berzerk or Rage. So that means that Kale's base is greater than Caulfila's (and arguably Goku's & Vegeta's too before ep.122).

Oh I've given plenty of "counter" evidence. You just never have any evidence of it in the first place. Why? Because there is none. There's a grand total of 0 statements that corroborate this claim. None. And I don't even need evidence, because the burden of proof IS ON YOU, because you're making the claim.

Don't bring DBS Broly into this. But if you insist, it's a terrible example because his "Full-power SSJ" is completely different from his normal SSJ. So your own example disproves your premise. I was referring to the form clearly emulating LSSJ Broly from DBZ.

And Kale's BSSJ was presented as something different than normal SSJ every single time she used the form. The greener hair, the huge musculature, the loss of control. None of that is characteristic of normal SSJ. Or if it is, it's too a MUCH lesser extent.

[Kataphrut]

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Why would we believe that Gotenks isn't that good? What reason do we have to believe that's the case? We never get any indication that he got weaker from the Buu arc or anything like that. Goku fights Final Form Freeza who dominated everybody in his first form, is Freeza not that good? Beerus(albeit suppressed) fought Base Goku and was entertained by the fight, is he also not that good? What about Goku being impressed that Buu was able to improve enough from training to compete with his Base form? Does Goku suddenly have no idea how to sense ki? Goku's SSJ was stated to be as strong as SSG during BoG, and all of this is an extension of that.

Obviously ToP Gohan is astronomically stronger than he was in the Buu arc. What does Basil have to do with Super characters not being vastly stronger than their Z counterparts? Just because Basil had fought Base Goku and didn't instantly die?

Buu fought Basil before he started training and wiped the floor with him- unlike Gohan, he'd never trained up to that point and was never stated to have received a boost between Z and the Zen Expo. I mean why would he, he has no reason to.

My whole argument is trying to disprove the idea that even the weakest fighters in Super are stronger than all of Z because reasons. The original what-if, everyone was arguing Caulifla and Kale could beat Buuhan without transforming, despite the fact that untransformed Kale is barely a fighter, while Caulifla needed to transform to beat Napapa (a jobber if ever there was one), who in turn was evenly matched with Basil in an earlier encounter. If Basil is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have been weaker than Buuhan since he hadn't trained at that point, then so are untransformed Caulifla and Kale. Obviously if they could transform it would be a different story, especially Kale, but that's not what was being talked about.

As for Gotenks, I'm being more meta there than anything. So long as he continues to be an underused and ineffective joke character, I'm not going to take power scaling arguments that hinge around him seriously. As far as fights worth taking seriously go, Base Goku and Vegeta have definitely gotten stronger, but the series has also proved numerous times that they hardly fight to their fullest in Base. I'd call Base Goku vs Final Form Freeza a serious fight (and bare in mind, Goku, Vegeta and Freeza where the only ones who'd been training in Resurrection F, hence why the others were so useless), but Base Vegeta vs Cabba was over before it began, if you know what I mean. Cabba not immediately dying to Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean he could have wandered onto the set of the Buu arc and solved everything with his scrawny limbs.

[Hugo Boss]

Maybe or probably. It's semantics.

This is a rare occurrence of the promotional material directly contradicting both the film and other mediums. Broly was not confirmed to be stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is confirmed to have surpassed the GoD tier.

I usually don’t care about promotional stuff. But, to be fair, “probably” is much closer to a certainty than “maybe” (like 90% of certainty). Goku could still be wrong, since Beerus never showed his full capacity, but we can infer at least, from Goku’s current perspective, that the God of Destruction level is something Broly can exceed to an unknown extent.

Interestingly, the Chou Senshi Wafer Stickers have Broly at 9,600, the same number of Blue Gogeta and Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren has 9,500.

[zarmack]

I'm baffled that you continue to perpetuate this incredibly unsupported notion that Base Goku>BoG SSG Goku. Oh, and Kale's base is obviously not stronger than Caulifla's. You make a false equivalency as though Kale and Caulifla's SSJ forms are equivalent. Kale's SSJ is clearly superior, being it is that "Broly" type SSJ, and officially called "Berserker SSJ." Completely different from normal SSJ.

1. You have never given any counter evidence for Post-BoG Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

2. Kale and Broly's yellow haired forms in Super are literally just normal SSJ1, not some special unique form like Berzerk or Rage. So that means that Kale's base is greater than Caulfila's (and arguably Goku's & Vegeta's too before ep.122).

Oh I've given plenty of "counter" evidence. You just never have any evidence of it in the first place. Why? Because there is none. There's a grand total of 0 statements that corroborate this claim. None. And I don't even need evidence, because the burden of proof IS ON YOU, because you're making the claim.

Don't bring DBS Broly into this. But if you insist, it's a terrible example because his "Full-power SSJ" is completely different from his normal SSJ. So your own example disproves your premise. I was referring to the form clearly emulating LSSJ Broly from DBZ.

And Kale's BSSJ was presented as something different than normal SSJ every single time she used the form. The greener hair, the huge musculature, the loss of control. None of that is characteristic of normal SSJ. Or if it is, it's too a MUCH lesser extent.

1. Then how do you explain feats like Base Vegeta casually stomping SSJ3 Gotenks, Base Goku matching Fit Buu (who is way stronger than Buuhan), Beerus' statement early in the RoF arc while Goku & Vegea were training on his planet that the were admitting more than they had a year ago (he said this while they were in base), etc.

2. Nobody was comparing Kale & Broly's special green haired forms. I was talking about their normal, yellow haired SSJ1 forms (which were never stated to be different from everyone else's, so their multipliers are the same)


both of which where shown be above Goku's and Vegeta's (Broly's being much stronger than Goku & Vegeta's SSB forms, and Kale's being stronger than Caulfila's SSJ2 and near-equal to Goku's SSJ2 in the ToP). So their bases are obviously stronger too.

[zarmack]

The Gotenks thing is what everybody brings up to try and argue that everyone in Super is a billion squillion times stronger than Z. Has it ever occurred to them that Gotenks just isn't very good? He's a joke of a character who's never won a fight and only fought seriously against Super Buu, who he still wasn't able to beat. I don't even need to dismiss that scene as being from a bad filler arc to say him losing doesn't mean anything. If nothing else, you can say it's Vegeta and Goku's relative skill and experience that makes the difference. They used the same argument to justify Krillin vs Gohan and SS Goku, Base Goku vs SS2 Caulifla and most of Roshi's fights in the Tournament of Power. It's fine.

I'll give you that Ultimate Gohan in the TOP is stronger, they make that very clear. However I can't buy it with Buu, they never give any indication that he had to train or get some sort of boost between Z and his fight with Basil. He won because of his own unique abilities (abilities shared with and exceeded by Buuhan incidentally) and yes, his raw power advantage.

Basically, don't sleep on any of the Buus, they were the biggest threat in the original series for a reason, with feats like depopulating words and breaking through dimensional walls. That's why I'm arguing this- I like the Universe 6 Saiyans, but I don't think being introduced later should let a timid space cop, a street punk and her shy girlfriend stomp the genie destroyer of worlds, especially not when it's the weakest versions of them versus the strongest version of him.

Why would we believe that Gotenks isn't that good? What reason do we have to believe that's the case? We never get any indication that he got weaker from the Buu arc or anything like that. Goku fights Final Form Freeza who dominated everybody in his first form, is Freeza not that good? Beerus(albeit suppressed) fought Base Goku and was entertained by the fight, is he also not that good? What about Goku being impressed that Buu was able to improve enough from training to compete with his Base form? Does Goku suddenly have no idea how to sense ki? Goku's SSJ was stated to be as strong as SSG during BoG, and all of this is an extension of that.

Obviously ToP Gohan is astronomically stronger than he was in the Buu arc. What does Basil have to do with Super characters not being vastly stronger than their Z counterparts? Just because Basil had fought Base Goku and didn't instantly die?

Buu fought Basil before he started training and wiped the floor with him- unlike Gohan, he'd never trained up to that point and was never stated to have received a boost between Z and the Zen Expo. I mean why would he, he has no reason to.

My whole argument is trying to disprove the idea that even the weakest fighters in Super are stronger than all of Z because reasons. The original what-if, everyone was arguing Caulifla and Kale could beat Buuhan without transforming, despite the fact that untransformed Kale is barely a fighter, while Caulifla needed to transform to beat Napapa (a jobber if ever there was one), who in turn was evenly matched with Basil in an earlier encounter. If Basil is weaker than Fat Buu, who had to have been weaker than Buuhan since he hadn't trained at that point, then so are untransformed Caulifla and Kale. Obviously if they could transform it would be a different story, especially Kale, but that's not what was being talked about.

As for Gotenks, I'm being more meta there than anything. So long as he continues to be an underused and ineffective joke character, I'm not going to take power scaling arguments that hinge around him seriously. As far as fights worth taking seriously go, Base Goku and Vegeta have definitely gotten stronger, but the series has also proved numerous times that they hardly fight to their fullest in Base. I'd call Base Goku vs Final Form Freeza a serious fight (and bare in mind, Goku, Vegeta and Freeza where the only ones who'd been training in Resurrection F, hence why the others were so useless), but Base Vegeta vs Cabba was over before it began, if you know what I mean. Cabba not immediately dying to Vegeta doesn't necessarily mean he could have wandered onto the set of the Buu arc and solved everything with his scrawny limbs.

1. Kale was merely feeling a lot of anxiety at the time of her fight with Napapa (Kid Gohan use to have the same problem when not enraged). The fact that her SSJ1 was shown to be stronger than Caulifla's SSJ2 (and near Goku's) in ep113. shows that her base as greater than Caulifla's (and arguably Goku's & Vegeta's at the time).

2. Good Buu's fight with Basil was after Buu's training and gaining his FIt appearance (Good Buu's upgraded power was never stated to be exclusive to his Fit form, and it isn't presented as a transformation). So Fat Buu in the ToP arc is by no means equal to his Buu arc self.

3. Gotenk's is not a gag character like Arale. He powerscales normally just like most of the other fighters. Your argument is just a bad attempt at dismissing Base Copy-Vegeta's feat (in fact, Copy Vegeta beating SSJ3 Gotenks' ass wasn't even portrayed in a comedic light in that episode, so your joke character argument falls flat.)

4. Vegeta himself flat-out states to himself that his and Cabba's bases were equal in power:


He says this in the manga too:


Also, Vegeta said this before he found out that Cabba didn't know how to go SSJ. So he had no reason to lie to Cabba (let alone himself).

People only deny these facts because they hate the idea of Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base U6 Saiyans and even most ToP fodder like Magetta being strong enough to solo all of Z (even though there's nothing to suggest its false). Its no different from the fact that Raditz could easily solo all of Early DB.

[ZombieVito]

Interestingly, the Chou Senshi Wafer Stickers have Broly at 9,600, the same number of Blue Gogeta and Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren has 9,500.

Interesting indeed.

Is the Jiren sticker his normal form though? Is there one for when he breaks his limits?

It would be amazing if someone could gather all the power levels on these stickers and post them.

[p-hyvo]

Next Battle
Zamasu of Present VS Supreme Kais of U7
Frost VS Katopesla
Cocotte VS Kaseral
Pan (GT) VS Hop and Sorrel
Trio de Dangers VS Goku SSJ4

Zamasu,frost,khasenal,pan and goku ssj4 wins that

Present zamasu gave a similar sensation to the one bills gave to goku, frost is arguably stronger than ssj Vegeta at the ToP , while catopesla couldn't hit base vegeta,hop/sorrel are below good buu tier like the other u9 fighters and pan is in a much higher tier, goku ssj4 beats the 3 dogs cause they are all good buu tier

[Hugo Boss]

Interestingly, the Chou Senshi Wafer Stickers have Broly at 9,600, the same number of Blue Gogeta and Ultra Instinct Goku. Jiren has 9,500.

Interesting indeed.

Is the Jiren sticker his normal form though? Is there one for when he breaks his limits?

It would be amazing if someone could gather all the power levels on these stickers and post them.

Until today, all Jiren’s stickers reprinted the 9,500 figure, he always had the uniform intact though.

Unfortunately, the prices of those stickers are very high, so I can’t collect all, but at least I will try to gather what I can find.