The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Koitsukai]

1) 16, 17 and 18 vs Bojack's gang
That is Gokua, Bido, Zangya and Bujin, NOT Bojack. You can remove one of the Bojack team to make it a fair 3 vs 3.

2) Bojack's Gang (same as above) vs Vegeta, Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tenshinhan.
No Bojack. The Z senshi of the pre-ROSAT period, every technique is allowed.

3) Gokua vs 1nd form Cell

4) Bido vs 2nd form Cell

5) Bojack's gang vs 20 Metal Cooler
No Bojack. Metal Coolers as strong as the last one that gave Goku and Vegeta so much trouble, but with no cybernetic zenkai power.

6) 4 Big Gete Star mechas vs Nappa, Vegeta, Piccolo and Goku (Saiyan saga)
I'm talking about the robots that Piccolo, Krilin and Gohan were facing before Cooler showed up. If 4 is too much, then 2 mechas. Can a saiyan-earthling alliance of early Z take them out?

7) Base Z Broly vs Buu arc SS Goku
That's the purple-ish hair Broly that got angry the night before the fight, not the real base form that looks all depressed and shy.

Base Z Broly (same as above) vs the Bojack Gang

9) Base Z Broly (same as above) vs Shin

10) Shin vs Bojack's Gang

11) Shin vs Bojack

[Mad Swami]

1) 16, 17 and 18 vs Bojack's gang
That is Gokua, Bido, Zangya and Bujin, NOT Bojack. You can remove one of the Bojack team to make it a fair 3 vs 3.

2) Bojack's Gang (same as above) vs Vegeta, Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tenshinhan.
No Bojack. The Z senshi of the pre-ROSAT period, every technique is allowed.

3) Gokua vs 1st form Cell

4) Bido vs 2nd form Cell

5) Bojack's gang vs 20 Metal Cooler
No Bojack. Metal Coolers as strong as the last one that gave Goku and Vegeta so much trouble, but with no cybernetic zenkai power.

6) 4 Big Gete Star mechas vs Nappa, Vegeta, Piccolo and Goku (Saiyan saga)
I'm talking about the robots that Piccolo, Krilin and Gohan were facing before Cooler showed up. If 4 is too much, then 2 mechas. Can a saiyan-earthling alliance of early Z take them out?

7) Base Z Broly vs Buu arc SS Goku
That's the purple-ish hair Broly that got angry the night before the fight, not the real base form that looks all depressed and shy.

Base Z Broly (same as above) vs the Bojack Gang

9) Base Z Broly (same as above) vs Shin

10) Shin vs Bojack's Gang

11) Shin vs Bojack

1) In both cases, I go with Bojack's crew

2) Z fighters lose. I see it going as Kamicolo and Bido fight. Bido has the advantage but Piccolo's brillance helps him hold out. Trunks and Vegeta recive a beating from Zangya and Kogu teamed. Tien meanwhile attempts to hold out against Bujin. Like in the movie, Bujin wins and the others all fall.

3) Kogu. Kogu gets wrecked by Trunks SSJ, but that's Trunks in the mastered state so much stronger. That same Trunks one shots first form Cell much quicker. I think Kogu is more A18 level.

4) Cell. Bido was around 16's level maybe a bit stronger but I think Cell's brain and larger power would be too much. Could perform well, but not win.

5) Metal Cooler stomps. 20 was overkill. I think the squad could take maybe four of them, they each were around Kamicolo's debut fight with A17 IMO

6) Big Gette stars win in both. I don't know how strong they are supposed to be, but they should be around the level of Qui. I don't know, but due to when they appear I will give it to them.

7) Goku wrecks. Goku didn't get too much stronger between the sagas, but I think his skill will give him this. Plus Cell Games Goku could take him. Maybe wrecks was too strong.

Bojack's squad. Each one of Bojack's men I think are around SSJ Vegeta Cell Games level. Plus they have team work.

9) Shin. I think his mentality and tricks absolutley give him the edge and make this fairly easy

10) Shin takes them all down i'd say. It's a hard fight and Shin's gonna rely mostly on his odd abilities and magic. However, I could very well see Shin be out numbered and beaten, but he'll at least take two of them with him. Also they are probably stronger as a whole, but Shin is stronger than each and everyone of them.

11) Hmm tough, but due to Shin's magic I gotta go with Shin. Shin I think could take Perfect Cell and Bojack due to his fight with SSJ2 Gohan seems in that league.

[Koitsukai]

1) 16, 17 and 18 vs Bojack's gang
That is Gokua, Bido, Zangya and Bujin, NOT Bojack. You can remove one of the Bojack team to make it a fair 3 vs 3.

2) Bojack's Gang (same as above) vs Vegeta, Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tenshinhan.
No Bojack. The Z senshi of the pre-ROSAT period, every technique is allowed.

3) Gokua vs 1st form Cell

4) Bido vs 2nd form Cell

5) Bojack's gang vs 20 Metal Cooler
No Bojack. Metal Coolers as strong as the last one that gave Goku and Vegeta so much trouble, but with no cybernetic zenkai power.

6) 4 Big Gete Star mechas vs Nappa, Vegeta, Piccolo and Goku (Saiyan saga)
I'm talking about the robots that Piccolo, Krilin and Gohan were facing before Cooler showed up. If 4 is too much, then 2 mechas. Can a saiyan-earthling alliance of early Z take them out?

7) Base Z Broly vs Buu arc SS Goku
That's the purple-ish hair Broly that got angry the night before the fight, not the real base form that looks all depressed and shy.

Base Z Broly (same as above) vs the Bojack Gang

9) Base Z Broly (same as above) vs Shin

10) Shin vs Bojack's Gang

11) Shin vs Bojack

1) In both cases, I go with Bojack's crew

2) Z fighters lose. I see it going as Kamicolo and Bido fight. Bido has the advantage but Piccolo's brillance helps him hold out. Trunks and Vegeta recive a beating from Zangya and Kogu teamed. Tien meanwhile attempts to hold out against Bujin. Like in the movie, Bujin wins and the others all fall.

3) Kogu. Kogu gets wrecked by Trunks SSJ, but that's Trunks in the mastered state so much stronger. That same Trunks one shots first form Cell much quicker. I think Kogu is more A18 level.

4) Cell. Bido was around 16's level maybe a bit stronger but I think Cell's brain and larger power would be too much. Could perform well, but not win.

5) Metal Cooler stomps. 20 was overkill. I think the squad could take maybe four of them, they each were around Kamicolo's debut fight with A17 IMO

6) Big Gette stars win in both. I don't know how strong they are supposed to be, but they should be around the level of Qui. I don't know, but due to when they appear I will give it to them.

7) Goku wrecks. Goku didn't get too much stronger between the sagas, but I think his skill will give him this. Plus Cell Games Goku could take him. Maybe wrecks was too strong.

Bojack's squad. Each one of Bojack's men I think are around SSJ Vegeta Cell Games level. Plus they have team work.

9) Shin. I think his mentality and tricks absolutley give him the edge and make this fairly easy

10) Shin takes them all down i'd say. It's a hard fight and Shin's gonna rely mostly on his odd abilities and magic. However, I could very well see Shin be out numbered and beaten, but he'll at least take two of them with him. Also they are probably stronger as a whole, but Shin is stronger than each and everyone of them.

11) Hmm tough, but due to Shin's magic I gotta go with Shin. Shin I think could take Perfect Cell and Bojack due to his fight with SSJ2 Gohan seems in that league.

I agree, yes, although I think Base-ish Broly might not be as easy for the Bojack gang but we just have like two 15-second scene to go by, so it's fair.

[ZodiacBeast]

Moro Arc Vegito (SSB Evolved Kaio-Ken x20, after Vegeta's Yardrat training) versus Full Power Jiren, Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (new) and Moro-73 (each individually).

Man, I am soooooo original. But I just can't stop thinking about how broken SSB Evolved with KKx20 on top of Goku and Vegeta fusing would be.

[Koitsukai]

Moro Arc Vegito (SSB Evolved Kaio-Ken x20, after Vegeta's Yardrat training) versus Full Power Jiren, Legendary Super Saiyan Broly (new) and Moro-73 (each individually).

Man, I am soooooo original. But I just can't stop thinking about how broken SSB Evolved with KKx20 on top of Goku and Vegeta fusing would be.

Seeing how easy it was for Gogeta with just SSB to defeat Broly, and how outclassed Moro was by UI (assuming UI and blue fusion are somewhat relative to each other), then a 40x boost of the combination of the evolved forms should be enough to one-shot Broly and do the same to Jiren and Moro. We don't know how Moro compares to the others but even if he is much stronger than them, the 40x boost should at least guarantee Vegito's victory. I don't think there is even a need for Vegito to be post-Yadrat. Moro73 can even have Vegeta's new ability, but just like it happened to Vegeta with Moro73, he just can't touch SSBEKKx20 Vegito to defuse him. I'm thinking he can take them all at the same time too.

That is pretending the potara can sustain that kind of power, of course.

[BagetaSama]

I'm not a huge fan of the two base, as I said it was an *attempt* by fans to make the senseless anime make sense when it can't.

It can work and it does. The two base thing had arisen from people making a series of appeal to incredulity fallacies. "There's no way he could be that strong!" Rather than anything of substance. The way that the god-power up worked, it made it such that BoG SSJ(post-ritual)>BoG SSG. This is explicitly stated by Goku, the narrator, and Beerus. So anyone who competed with Goku's SSJ at that point forward was stronger than BoG SSG, and anyone that could compete with his Base, is above anything in Z aside from possibly SSJ Vegetto. THE ONLY arguments people use against it, are again, just appeal to incredulity fallacies, and they use this to justify their absolutely absurd "two base theory" being needed. Nobody actually expresses any legitimate inconsistencies, or evidence of a retcon, when they make arguments that there was a retcon or that two base theory is a thing.

[Mad Swami]

Goku base (Buu saga) vs Tien (Buu saga), Krillin (Cell Games), and Piccolo (Namek)
Hatchiyak vs M-2
Kamicolo (debut) vs Trunks SSJ (tournament)
Ledgic vs Majin Buu (the one that SSJ3 Goku fought)
Android 16 vs Kamicolo and A17 (at full power. I feel as though Cell dwarfed him due to how much power Piccolo used.)

[ZodiacBeast]

Say Goku Black and Baby Vegeta fuse. How strong would this new super evil fusion be? Would they be able to beat later heavy hitters like Kefla, Broly, Jiren and Moro, or would he merely pester them and get swatted away?

[Mad Swami]

Say Goku Black and Baby Vegeta fuse. How strong would this new super evil fusion be? Would they be able to beat later heavy hitters like Kefla, Broly, Jiren and Moro, or would he merely pester them and get swatted away?

Seeing as Baby Vegeta is soo weak compared to even base Goku, I would say it's a minimal boost. Super is wild with power scaling.

[ZodiacBeast]

Say Goku Black and Baby Vegeta fuse. How strong would this new super evil fusion be? Would they be able to beat later heavy hitters like Kefla, Broly, Jiren and Moro, or would he merely pester them and get swatted away?

Seeing as Baby Vegeta is soo weak compared to even base Goku, I would say it's a minimal boost. Super is wild with power scaling.

Even Super Baby Vegeta 2? I didn't think GT was that weak, but I've never really compared GT and Super.

[Mad Swami]

Say Goku Black and Baby Vegeta fuse. How strong would this new super evil fusion be? Would they be able to beat later heavy hitters like Kefla, Broly, Jiren and Moro, or would he merely pester them and get swatted away?

Seeing as Baby Vegeta is soo weak compared to even base Goku, I would say it's a minimal boost. Super is wild with power scaling.

Even Super Baby Vegeta 2? I didn't think GT was that weak, but I've never really compared GT and Super.

I mean I don't think GT ever got really universal. Maybe SSJ4 Gogeta was like SSG Goku BoG but thats about it IMO

[Koitsukai]

Goku base (Buu saga) vs Tien (Buu saga), Krillin (Cell Games), and Piccolo (Namek)
Hatchiyak vs M-2
Kamicolo (debut) vs Trunks SSJ (tournament)
Ledgic vs Majin Buu (the one that SSJ3 Goku fought)
Android 16 vs Kamicolo and A17 (at full power. I feel as though Cell dwarfed him due to how much power Piccolo used.)

1) I think Goku was around 70 M in that arc. Much more than any of his enemies, Piccolo was around 1,5 M, Krilin is not at all in the millions and Tenshinhan probably is stronger than Piccolo but not by that much. Buuuut, Shin Kikoho. 2nd form Cell couldn't get out of it on his own, Goku shouldn't survive as many attacks as Cell did.

2) IIRC, Hatchiyak was said to be stronger than Broly. M-2 (the planet I guess) was the ultimate form of a character that started as strong as Buu (no matter which one, the weakest iteration already beats Broly). M-2 wins.

3) The only tournament I can think of is the one from the Bojack movie. Any SS post-ROSAT defeats Kamiccolo.

4) I'm thinking Buu. Even if they are even in power, Buu has just more stuff up his sleeve.

5) Interesting. I don't think 16 was that much stronger than them, so a team effort might even the field. But I feel Kamiccolo will get tired before they deal serious damage, and then it's just 16 vs 17.

Say Goku Black and Baby Vegeta fuse. How strong would this new super evil fusion be? Would they be able to beat later heavy hitters like Kefla, Broly, Jiren and Moro, or would he merely pester them and get swatted away?

Baby couldn't harm SS4 which is comparable to SS fusion (weaker than SSG), so it would be like a SSB level guy fusing with a SSG level guy. Two blues = Vegito Blue; a blue and a SS2 = Merged Zamasu. A blue and a god = probably some SSBKKx20 or Initial SSBE.

They would be stronger than Merged Zamasu but weaker than Vegito Blue. Broly, Jiren and Moro are off the table. Kefla... it depends, manga Kefla is dead in the water, anime Kefla wins as SS2.

[TobyS]

1) 16, 17 and 18 vs Bojack's gang
That is Gokua, Bido, Zangya and Bujin, NOT Bojack. You can remove one of the Bojack team to make it a fair 3 vs 3.

2) Bojack's Gang (same as above) vs Vegeta, Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tenshinhan.
No Bojack. The Z senshi of the pre-ROSAT period, every technique is allowed.

3) Gokua vs 1nd form Cell

4) Bido vs 2nd form Cell

5) Bojack's gang vs 20 Metal Cooler
No Bojack. Metal Coolers as strong as the last one that gave Goku and Vegeta so much trouble, but with no cybernetic zenkai power.

6) 4 Big Gete Star mechas vs Nappa, Vegeta, Piccolo and Goku (Saiyan saga)
I'm talking about the robots that Piccolo, Krilin and Gohan were facing before Cooler showed up. If 4 is too much, then 2 mechas. Can a saiyan-earthling alliance of early Z take them out?

7) Base Z Broly vs Buu arc SS Goku
That's the purple-ish hair Broly that got angry the night before the fight, not the real base form that looks all depressed and shy.

Base Z Broly (same as above) vs the Bojack Gang

9) Base Z Broly (same as above) vs Shin

10) Shin vs Bojack's Gang

1) I thought the fan consensus was the Bojack Gang was around Cell Jr level. They needed a SS2 to one shot and the humans could do nothing to em.

Perhaps there's a bit more range with Gokua being the youngest/weakest which is why Trunks could beat him somewhat easily, (although he was even with Jr a year ago and these can't regenerate)

I think they lose.

2) Post RoSaT they could win, but pre they lose imo.

3) Gokua I think, Trunks seemed to take more time on Cell but I think he was looking more to avoid the tail and make sure he didn't regenerate.
I think the Bojack team are nearer Cell Jr Level, which is a lot above semi cell which is tonnes above 1st form.

4) Bido takes it I think the Bojack gang are around Jr level. And Bido is stronger then Gokua.

5) Metal coolers are around/above Android era Super saiyans not post rosat ones. I think the gang are Cell Jr Level so I think they thrash em.

6) It's really impossible to place these, we know they are weaker than Cooler, and weaker than android arc Gohan and Kuririn (PL 75,000 at namek + ? (dendes existence) and we know Roshi is too weak at like 100-300 and saiyan saga Vegeta is like 18,000.

Maybe Oozaru vegeta can manage something... There's not enough feats or PL's to say.

7) Base Saiyans aint shit, I think Broly might have been meant to be a regular SS there before going legendary but if not I think any SS takes it.

8-9) Broly owned.

10) Shin is deffo stronger than one of them even highballing them.
But can he take them all? Do the energy bonds work on him?
I think if it's post kibito merger and split where he now has KaiKai at the very least he could be cheap and retreat and full power one by one come back and blast em.

If he can't teleport I think he takes at least one before energy bonds. If the bonds can't hold him he perhaps takes them all or maybe like 3/4 before being overwhelmed.

[TobyS]

I'm not a huge fan of the two base, as I said it was an *attempt* by fans to make the senseless anime make sense when it can't.

It can work and it does. The two base thing had arisen from people making a series of appeal to incredulity fallacies. "There's no way he could be that strong!" Rather than anything of substance. The way that the god-power up worked, it made it such that BoG SSJ(post-ritual)>BoG SSG. This is explicitly stated by Goku, the narrator, and Beerus. So anyone who competed with Goku's SSJ at that point forward was stronger than BoG SSG, and anyone that could compete with his Base, is above anything in Z aside from possibly SSJ Vegetto. THE ONLY arguments people use against it, are again, just appeal to incredulity fallacies, and they use this to justify their absolutely absurd "two base theory" being needed. Nobody actually expresses any legitimate inconsistencies, or evidence of a retcon, when they make arguments that there was a retcon or that two base theory is a thing.

There's no way to explain the saiyaman spar, the Ultimate Gohan spar and Trunks getting that strong without God training when never showing that growth rate before. He didn't even surpass his dad at the cell games despite the fact gohan did and they were both hybrids. He didn't crack SS2 till Dabra forced it out of him.

You can say "the growth rate changed for no reason" Goku lied and kept holding back and for some reason Gohan stopped being able to tell that he was" and shit like that but because it's not stated that's just as much of a headcanon as the two base theory.

[TobyS]

Goku base (Buu saga) vs Tien (Buu saga), Krillin (Cell Games), and Piccolo (Namek)
Hatchiyak vs M-2
Kamicolo (debut) vs Trunks SSJ (tournament)
Ledgic vs Majin Buu (the one that SSJ3 Goku fought)
Android 16 vs Kamicolo and A17 (at full power. I feel as though Cell dwarfed him due to how much power Piccolo used.)

We know that BoG goku is still weaker then Freeza but he was using kaioken on Namek, so.

We know Piccolo on Namek was a bit above 2nd form Freeza, who was "Over a million"
We can work backwards and know BASE goku no kaioken was 3 million.
However BoG, and so working backwards, Buu Base goku could be between 3 million and 120 million. If he's closer to the latter range this Piccolo doesn't help much. Kuririn and Ten are weaker then base Goku in the same saga.

So it's a case of how much you think they closed the gap, if they closed it back to the potential gap of the saiyan saga proportions (but even closer because they've had Kami training too now) kinda gap.

Highballing the humans and lowballing Goku they can do it by ganging up on him.
Alternatively Ten can beat Goku with a kikoho.

I think you'd probably need like Moro arc humans to beat Buu arc base saiyans IMO. The gap between them and Goku was widened too much by things like the RoSaT. They need more time to close it back down to a level where ganging up would work.

Pass I know nothing about GT that was the android planet which would include the rildo guy that was compared to some form of Buu? Hatchy was Broly/Cell tier.

Is Ledgic before the guy Goku compares to Buu? And he only fights that guy in SS1?

I think Buu can take a SS1 Tier unless you really buy the base goku gt = z ss3, then he can't as this guy needed a SS1 on top of that to beat.

Even though I never liked Cell getting that much stronger then Piccolo in the same form that seems to be what's presented. 16 is equal.

I guess if Piccolo could do a Special beam canon type attack while 17 holds him or traps him in a field or something it'd be possible because 16 can't regenerate.

But otherwise 16 can manhandle both like Cell did to Piccolo with that Knockout punch and blast through the chest.

[BagetaSama]

I'm not a huge fan of the two base, as I said it was an *attempt* by fans to make the senseless anime make sense when it can't.

It can work and it does. The two base thing had arisen from people making a series of appeal to incredulity fallacies. "There's no way he could be that strong!" Rather than anything of substance. The way that the god-power up worked, it made it such that BoG SSJ(post-ritual)>BoG SSG. This is explicitly stated by Goku, the narrator, and Beerus. So anyone who competed with Goku's SSJ at that point forward was stronger than BoG SSG, and anyone that could compete with his Base, is above anything in Z aside from possibly SSJ Vegetto. THE ONLY arguments people use against it, are again, just appeal to incredulity fallacies, and they use this to justify their absolutely absurd "two base theory" being needed. Nobody actually expresses any legitimate inconsistencies, or evidence of a retcon, when they make arguments that there was a retcon or that two base theory is a thing.

There's no way to explain the saiyaman spar, the Ultimate Gohan spar and Trunks getting that strong without God training when never showing that growth rate before. He didn't even surpass his dad at the cell games despite the fact gohan did and they were both hybrids. He didn't crack SS2 till Dabra forced it out of him.

You can say "the growth rate changed for no reason" Goku lied and kept holding back and for some reason Gohan stopped being able to tell that he was" and shit like that but because it's not stated that's just as much of a headcanon as the two base theory.

The Saiyaman spar, Goku fights evenly with Gohan in Base, admits that he is suppressed, and then each goes SSJ and they continue fighting evenly. If they continued fighting evenly after he admitted to being suppressed, this implies that he was still suppressed. The only alternative is that if you arbitrarily assume that Gohan was ALSO suppressed at the beginning. Which there's no evidence for, and there's no need for you to examine that Gohan didn't make ANOTHER comment about Goku being suppressed, that's just strange/unnecessary. It's MORE head canon, to assume that Goku went full-power, with no indication that he did.

As for Future Trunks and the change in his growth rate, this happens all the time for the sake of plot convenience, all the time, with various characters. It's just plot induced stupidity that happens all the time. The humans, in their entire existence, had been straggling behind Goku, and had trained for many many years, and hadn't even come remotely close to Piccolo Jr in the 23rd TB. Goku always yielded superior growth from the same training, and in the 5 years training with Kami, he got massively inferior growth compared to the humans training with Kami for ONE year, that allowed them to leap frog, Piccolo Daimao, Popo, Kami, 23rd TB Piccolo Jr, and most importantly, Raditz. There's nothing from the series that suggested that the humans were capable of such massive growth, relative to what Goku achieved. Piccolo went from being a couple thousand, to being incredibly strong on Namek, stronger than Nail at the least, before fusing with him. This was from, quite literally just meditating for 6 days. There's nothing prior to this or after this that suggeested that he was capablel of such growth. Same shit with Trunks. Just plot induced stupidity. It isn't an explicit contradiction of anything. And even if this was something unprecedented and contradictory, it still wouldn't outweigh the numerous events that corroborate the "god boost" in the anime throughout the series.

[Koitsukai]

1) Broly's ultimate attack from his second coming vs Super Perfect Cell's Super Kamehameha (no distractions for either of them)

2) Broly's attack vs Cell Games Father-Son Kamehameha (that killed Cell)
(same as above for Broly)

3) Broly's attack vs SS2 Gohan's attack from above but with both arms fully functional
(same as above but Gohan is fit and doesn't need daddy holding his hand all the way)

4) Cell Games SS2 Gohan's Kamehameha (that killed Cell) vs Buu's egg.
(Can the winner from the Cell Games destroy the egg, erasing Buu for good before he wakes up?)

5) What if Gohan had both arms, would the egg endure still?

[Polyphase Avatron]

At what point in the manga would you say that Kid Goku and Jaco (at the strength he was in the Jaco manga) would be an even match?

[Mad Swami]

At what point in the manga would you say that Kid Goku and Jaco (at the strength he was in the Jaco manga) would be an even match?

Hmm. Tough. I have two ideas.

Lowball Jaco: Red Ribbon Army Saga Kid Goku

Highball: Goku just after Krillin dies but before drinking the super divine water

[Lionel]

Here's some fusion based matches. If you feel each fusion is too strong or too weak then give a name of the strongest fighter whom you believe they could challenge.

Buu arc Ultimate Tenshillin w/ maintainable Kaioken x100 (potential unlocked Krillin/Tenshinhan potara fusion with the Kaioken seen in the Lord Slug movie) vs #17, 18, and 16

Moro arc Piccolo (fused with Namekian saviour, anime Saonel, and anime Pirina) vs TOP arc SSJB Goku

25th tournament arc Gohaku (Fusion Dance of Goku and Gohan) vs Buutenks