The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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TobyS
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:44 pm

Yamhan Vs the dude they fought in the Moro arc.
Yamhan Vs the fusion of the girl Kuririn fought.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:12 pm

New matches:

- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta
context: Gero thought that if he absorbed the energy of the others he would defeat Vegeta, what ya think?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:02 am

Noah wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:12 pm New matches:

- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta
context: Gero thought that if he absorbed the energy of the others he would defeat Vegeta, what ya think?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu
20 wins if he can absorb everyone. The machine androids are pretty accurate about their own strength he just got bluffed by Vegetas reserves.

He says that goes for Piccolo and then piccolo breaks free, the story wants you to worry that his plan would work if piccolo didn't break out via Gohan.

Gogetas a bit weaker but can knock him around fine but defuses the same way veggetto does. No difference in outcome.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:55 am

TobyS wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:44 pm Yamhan Vs the dude they fought in the Moro arc.
Yamhan Vs the fusion of the girl Kuririn fought.
Yamhan Vs the dude they fought in the Moro arc.


Zauyogi? It seems like he had Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu on the ropes all at once. Any fusion between those three should dispense with their opponent just as easily as Goku managed. If anything I would be wondering whether Yamhan could take an unamplified Saganbo. You know, the one who was described as being defeatable for Trunks?

Yamhan Vs the fusion of the girl Kuririn fought.


It's the same as with Zauyogi. Yamhan easily dispenses with his opponent here too.
Noah wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:12 pm New matches:

- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta
context: Gero thought that if he absorbed the energy of the others he would defeat Vegeta, what ya think?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu
- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta

Oh I agree with TobyS that #20 would take Vegeta easily if he managed to absorb everyone else's energy. Vegeta was superior to them all but apparently not to the degree that their collective power wasn't sufficient to allow someone overwhelm him. Mind you, this is with a suppressed Piccolo whom Gero had no knowledge could increase his ki at will. What does that say for Piccolo and the humans if they're believed sufficient to allow the android to overpower Vegeta?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu

Wasn't it described how there was no difference between Gogeta and Vegetto during the Broly arc? It seems absurd but I believe that's the implication made. If so then Gogeta should perform as well as Vegetto did. Any differences in performance here would hinge on time availability, personality, and perhaps attire. Vegetto seems to be wearing Goku's resistant gi. Gogeta is wearing little more than a sleeveless open front vest. Gogeta may not be able to endure attacks as well as his Potara counterpart.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:31 pm

Noah wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:12 pm New matches:

- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta
context: Gero thought that if he absorbed the energy of the others he would defeat Vegeta, what ya think?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu
Gero was correct.

No difference at all on what happened in episode 66. Vegetto = Gogeta.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:58 pm

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:45 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:31 pm
Noah wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:12 pm New matches:

- Android #20 (having absorbed the energy of Piccolo, Gohan, Tien and Krillin) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta
context: Gero thought that if he absorbed the energy of the others he would defeat Vegeta, what ya think?

- SSGSS Gogeta (FT arc) vs. Merged Zamasu
Gero was correct.

No difference at all on what happened in episode 66. Vegetto = Gogeta.
Regarding that, do you believe that the gi Vegetto is wearing offers any protection? I know body armour doesn't typically amount to much unless the power levels are close but wouldn't Gogeta be hurting a bit more from Zamasu's attacks in the anime than if Vegetto were in the ring? Granted, I question if a detail like that would even get acknowledged in the story.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yellowhex616 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:36 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:04 am
Yellowhex616 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:33 am
Arondite wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:05 am Gohan (Potential Unlocked) VS Goku SSJ3
I actually think Super Saiyan 3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan back in Z after being brought back to life. There are some indications of it in the manga and far more in the anime. I think it's pretty obvious that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Super anime, as he was matching blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, before Goku added Kaioken ×20 on top of his Blue-haired Super Saiyan form and basically knocked Gohan unconscious!

However, I actually think that in the DBS manga, Ultimate Gohan was actually stronger than Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku! Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku, who in the manga, was as strong, arguably stronger than Fused Zamasu was beginning to lose ground against Legendary Super Saiyan Kale before Golden Frieza kicked him out of the way! Ultimate Gohan was fighting on equal terms with Super Saiyan Kefla, infact they were so evenly matched that they knocked each other off of the tournament stage!

Goku did stack Kaioken on top of his Perfected Blue form in the manga, but it was too strenuous for him to maintain control of! So until Goku used his Ultra Instinct Sign and Vegeta used his Super Saiyan God SS Evolved form, you could argue that Gohan was briefly the strongest fighter in Universe 7! But the power gap became even greater in the Moro arc as at this point Goku and Vegeta had previously joined forces to defeat Broly and had since got much stronger!
Goku wouldn't be scared of Super Boo if he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

Krillin straight up says Goku is stronger than Gohan during the ToP.
So why would Goku be losing ground against Berserk Kale in his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue form, Krillin doesn't have God ki so does that make him a reliable source? It was a straight up double KO between Ultimate Gohan and Super Saiyan Kefla, who was obviously far stronger than Berserk Kale, who was gaining ground on Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku!

Also, if you didn't already know, it's a well known fact that Goku and Vegeta were less than 1/100th of their full size and power inside Buu's body! The funimation dub where Goku says: "But he's still stronger either of us, if we go out there he's going to kill us!" That isn't in the manga where Goku actually says: "But he's still stronger than either of us, he'll kill us if we go out like this!"

It was a misinterpretation, because he is basically saying that in their depleted size they were no match for Super Buu, so no, Super Buu wasn't confirmed stronger SSJ3 Goku! Plus, when Buutenks fusion inside his body reverts him to Buuiccolo, Goku powers out of Super Saiyan 3 and says: "it's kinda disappointing... Gohan can handle you now..." plus in the manga, Goku thinks Vegeta wants to revive everyone on Earth, including Gohan, Goten and Trunks because he initially thinks Vegeta wants them to help out against Kid Buu, implying that they weren't so much stronger that they could kill Kid Buu! And even if you could argue that Kid Buu was toying with Goku, the previous statement about Buuiccolo and Gohan made by Goku clearly hints that his power is closer to Kid Buu's than theirs is and Goku only thinks they could help out, rather than obliterate Kid Buu!

So if Ultimate Gohan was so far above Goku in light of what was said, why would he at best only think they could help out?! Gotenks and Gohan together would obviously be able to take down Kid Buu if that was the case, but that isn't what Goku implies in the manga, so sorry but until you can counter those points you're wrong on both accounts, read the DBZ manga and you'll see what I'm talking about!

SSJ3 Goku scales above base Super Buu in both versions... infact the only reason Super Buu's miniature avatar was taking on both Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Vegeta in the anime is because Super Buu was putting more of his real power into the avatar and was immortal inside his own body! Why do you think Super Buu wasn't moving on the cliff, the Daizenshuu basically stated that the fake Ultimate Gohan Goku encounters in the anime was scalable to the real thing! But that is obviously false, as Super Saiyan Goku in his miniature size was out matching the fake Ultimate Gohan in Buu's body by himself! Whereas he had to team up with Vegeta against base Super Buu's avatar!

Which would make no sense because we all know that base Super Buu is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, meaning that the fake Ultimate Gohan was scalable to Ultimate Gohan at less than 1/100th of his full size and power in the anime! It's the only realistic explanation, but either way, Goku stomps base Super Buu in both the manga and anime!

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yellowhex616 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:26 am

Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:46 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:04 am
Yellowhex616 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:33 am

I actually think Super Saiyan 3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan back in Z after being brought back to life. There are some indications of it in the manga and far more in the anime. I think it's pretty obvious that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Super anime, as he was matching blows with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, before Goku added Kaioken ×20 on top of his Blue-haired Super Saiyan form and basically knocked Gohan unconscious!

However, I actually think that in the DBS manga, Ultimate Gohan was actually stronger than Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku! Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku, who in the manga, was as strong, arguably stronger than Fused Zamasu was beginning to lose ground against Legendary Super Saiyan Kale before Golden Frieza kicked him out of the way! Ultimate Gohan was fighting on equal terms with Super Saiyan Kefla, infact they were so evenly matched that they knocked each other off of the tournament stage!

Goku did stack Kaioken on top of his Perfected Blue form in the manga, but it was too strenuous for him to maintain control of! So until Goku used his Ultra Instinct Sign and Vegeta used his Super Saiyan God SS Evolved form, you could argue that Gohan was briefly the strongest fighter in Universe 7! But the power gap became even greater in the Moro arc as at this point Goku and Vegeta had previously joined forces to defeat Broly and had since got much stronger!
Goku wouldn't be scared of Super Boo if he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

Krillin straight up says Goku is stronger than Gohan during the ToP.
Image

This quotation from Vegeta which Goku didn't contradict also alludes to Gohan being stronger, at least during the Buu arc. At the time all of his potential was unleashed and then raised even more by who knows how many magnitudes thanks to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. Goku should have been left in the dust according to the internal lore. It isn't until Goku acquired god ki that he began to feasibly retake the lead.
Potential refers to how much power a fighter can gain versus what they already have with relation to another fighters capacity to multiply their own power! It doesn't necessarily mean that the fighter with more potential is stronger than the fighter with less, that's fallacious reasoning! The statement only means that Gohan can gain more power far more quickly than either Goku or Vegeta if he puts his mind to it and trains! People always use the argument that Super Buu was stronger than Goku during the Fusion Saga of the Buu arc, but here is the thing, he actually wasn't!

In the funimation dub while trapped inside Buu's body when Vegeta decides against using Potara to fight Buu, Goku says: "But he's still stronger than either of us, if we go out there, he's going to kill us!" But the manga adds more context to this statement, but what Goku actually says is: "But he's still stronger than either of us, he'll kill us if we go out like this!" While in Buu's body, both Goku and Vegeta's power had been reduced to less than 1/100th of what it was, along with their size!

Along with this, the Daizenshuu points out that the fake Ultimate Gohan that Goku fought inside Buu's body was scalable to the real thing in the anime! Personally I think it means scalable to Ultimate Gohan with his size and power similarly reduced! Why? Because Goku was outdoing the fake Ultimate Gohan as a Super Saiyan, but as Super Saiyan 2's both him and Vegeta had to team up on Super Buu's miniature avatar, meaning that the avatar was stronger than the fake Ultimate Gohan, even though the fake was supposedly scalable to the real thing! And we both know Ultimate Gohan is stronger than base Super Buu, so it would make no sense, unless everyone else except Super Buu's mini avatar form had been reduced in power!

The fact that Super Buu was standing immobile on the cliff clearly tells you that he was pouring more of his full-sized selfs power into the mini avatar! So in the anime, after fighting Buutenks, teaming up with Vegeta against Buuhan starting off in base while fused as Vegito and overpowering Buuhan's power spike when he was threatening to tear through multiple dimensions as Super Vegito, fighting against round worms and a fake Ultimate Gohan, it stands to reason that Goku's continued to increase!

Now none of this happened in the manga and Vegito went Super Saiyan against Buuhan from the start, so obviously Goku was less likely to gain as many significant zenkais! That being said, you can still make a case for SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Z manga! How? 2 clues actually, the first is when Gotenks fusion inside Buu's body comes apart and he reverts to Buuiccolo, Goku basically powers down from Super Saiyan 3 and is like "...it's kinda disappointing... Gohan can handle you now..."

The second clue is when Goku and Vegeta are fighting Kid Buu and Vegeta puts his plan forward to wish back everyone on Earth! Goku mistakenly believes Vegeta wants to wish everyone back so that Goten, Trunks and Gohan can help out against Kid Buu! Now, why would they only be able to help out if base Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu and presumably if they actually could help out either Gotenks or Gohan could obliterate Kid Buu on the spot, right?! Plus, Goku would be like 'yeah, if we could get them here we could win this!' But that was never once said was it? The most he said was that they could help out and considering SSJ3 Goku was putting up a reasonable defence against Kid Buu, it's only logical to conclude that he is closer to Kid Buu in terms of power than Gotenks and Gohan!

In the Super anime, Ultimate Gohan rivals SSB Goku in power, but can't beat him while using SSB Kaioken ×20! Whereas in the manga, Berserk Kale was slowly gaining ground against Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Ultimate Gohan was equal to Super Saiyan Kefla, who was obviously far stronger than Berserk Kale! So in the ToP arc of the anime, Goku is stronger than Gohan, but in the manga, it seems that until Goku unlocked Ultra Instinct, Gohan was stronger! Btw Krillin doesn't have God-ki, so how would he be a reliable source when it comes to measuring Gohan next to Goku?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:22 am

Lionel wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:45 pm Regarding that, do you believe that the gi Vegetto is wearing offers any protection? I know body armour doesn't typically amount to much unless the power levels are close but wouldn't Gogeta be hurting a bit more from Zamasu's attacks in the anime than if Vegetto were in the ring? Granted, I question if a detail like that would even get acknowledged in the story.
I suppose since Gogeta is more exposed he could take more damage but in the end Zamasu (even when bulking up) couldn't overpower Vegetto so I doubt Gogeta will get any serious injury in the short time the fusion lasts to make any difference.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:15 pm

Yellowhex616 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:26 am
Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:46 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:04 am
Goku wouldn't be scared of Super Boo if he was stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

Krillin straight up says Goku is stronger than Gohan during the ToP.
Image

This quotation from Vegeta which Goku didn't contradict also alludes to Gohan being stronger, at least during the Buu arc. At the time all of his potential was unleashed and then raised even more by who knows how many magnitudes thanks to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. Goku should have been left in the dust according to the internal lore. It isn't until Goku acquired god ki that he began to feasibly retake the lead.
*snip*
Do you mean the potential to grow powerful? Well if that's the nuance being inferred with respect to comparative growth then Toriyama could have certainly done a better job of conveying it. Gohan's uppermost limits for growth at the time of the Buu arc must have been woefully substandard or his decrease in power substantial since we're informed that Elder Kaioshin's ability releases all of a character's dormant potential while elevating it "wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits".

I'm trying to only keep the manga in perspective regarding original DBZ but I always found the idea of Goku and Vegeta being unable to accomplish anything against Buu due to their size bizarre. In other instances of a significant size discrepancy like that such as Goku fighting Piccolo Jr that wasn't noted to be of any benefit. In fact it was treated as though it were a liability for the larger character. Is it selectively inconsequential for certain fights but not others? I wouldn't put it past Toriyama to be so whimful in the mechanics of his own manga.
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:22 am
Lionel wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:45 pm Regarding that, do you believe that the gi Vegetto is wearing offers any protection? I know body armour doesn't typically amount to much unless the power levels are close but wouldn't Gogeta be hurting a bit more from Zamasu's attacks in the anime than if Vegetto were in the ring? Granted, I question if a detail like that would even get acknowledged in the story.
I suppose since Gogeta is more exposed he could take more damage but in the end Zamasu (even when bulking up) couldn't overpower Vegetto so I doubt Gogeta will get any serious injury in the short time the fusion lasts to make any difference.
True. Such a condition would only matter if the power levels were close enough. Jackie Chun fighting Goku in the 21st tournament is an example of this. Although in a hypothetical Gogeta vs Vegetto showdown with the presumption of both powers being equal, I think attire would play a role there albeit certainly not the only one.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:37 am

Elder Kai flat out says Potara is more powerful, and he's witnessed both, he's under the illusion potara is permanant so he'd at least consider metamoran if it'd help or be an easier sell to stubborn bastards like Vegeta.

Plus Buu has a rough idea how much metamoran made the kids and he knows how strong SS3 Goku is so cockiness factored in he still thinks he can't be beaten by their presumed metamoran fusion.

I don't care what toei movie promotion pamphlets put up especially when taken with the grain of salt that is "they are trying to hype the movie and raise the stakes".

If you want to be a pedant you could say FT Vegito = Broly Arc Gogeta. Because manga (Toriyama) wise Goku and Geets aren't worlds stronger by Broly and their improvement could just be equivilant to the gap between Vegito and Gogeta.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Yellowhex616 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:08 am

Lionel wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:15 pm
Yellowhex616 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:26 am
Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:46 am

Image

This quotation from Vegeta which Goku didn't contradict also alludes to Gohan being stronger, at least during the Buu arc. At the time all of his potential was unleashed and then raised even more by who knows how many magnitudes thanks to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. Goku should have been left in the dust according to the internal lore. It isn't until Goku acquired god ki that he began to feasibly retake the lead.
*snip*
Do you mean the potential to grow powerful? Well if that's the nuance being inferred with respect to comparative growth then Toriyama could have certainly done a better job of conveying it. Gohan's uppermost limits for growth at the time of the Buu arc must have been woefully substandard or his decrease in power substantial since we're informed that Elder Kaioshin's ability releases all of a character's dormant potential while elevating it "wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits".

I'm trying to only keep the manga in perspective regarding original DBZ but I always found the idea of Goku and Vegeta being unable to accomplish anything against Buu due to their size bizarre. In other instances of a significant size discrepancy like that such as Goku fighting Piccolo Jr that wasn't noted to be of any benefit. In fact it was treated as though it were a liability for the larger character. Is it selectively inconsequential for certain fights but not others? I wouldn't put it past Toriyama to be so whimful in the mechanics of his own manga.
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:22 am
Lionel wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:45 pm Regarding that, do you believe that the gi Vegetto is wearing offers any protection? I know body armour doesn't typically amount to much unless the power levels are close but wouldn't Gogeta be hurting a bit more from Zamasu's attacks in the anime than if Vegetto were in the ring? Granted, I question if a detail like that would even get acknowledged in the story.
I suppose since Gogeta is more exposed he could take more damage but in the end Zamasu (even when bulking up) couldn't overpower Vegetto so I doubt Gogeta will get any serious injury in the short time the fusion lasts to make any difference.
True. Such a condition would only matter if the power levels were close enough. Jackie Chun fighting Goku in the 21st tournament is an example of this. Although in a hypothetical Gogeta vs Vegetto showdown with the presumption of both powers being equal, I think attire would play a role there albeit certainly not the only one.
Tbh I get what you're saying, it made no sense to me either at first, especially since Gohan had gone years without training in Super! Yet after presumably some training after the Resurrection F arc and some additional training with Piccolo to re-unlock his dormant "potential" he's trading hands with Super Saiyan Blue Goku, who should be far above Gohan even with some training and regaining his Ultimate form! You'd think years of inactivity wouldn't be made up for with some training, I get that he's half-Saiyan and they're known for naturally having greater potential than regular Saiyans!

But the fact that I'm saying that tells you that when it comes to the Saiyans, potential can only ever really refer to growth rate and not so much of a set in stone upper limit to their power! In the manga, he was equal to Super Saiyan Kefla, who should be way stronger than Berserk form Kale on her own, who was starting to gain on Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku! Yes being the Legendary Saiyan, it was revealed by Cabba that when Kale rampaged she would gain power until she self-destructed, but it's also the case that with Potara her strongest self would still be added to Caulifla's power and multiplied when they fused!

But somehow, Ultimate Gohan was equal to her in power! It's entirely possible that Gohan going for years of inactivity and not training is headcanon, but it's not likely, considering the fact that he could barely go Super Saiyan and was helpless against first form Freeza (who had undergone 4 months of training to get stronger) during the Resurrection F arc! I'm aware that we only saw one scene from the arc in the manga where Blue Goku finishes off Freeza with a Kamehameha while he's at Blue Vegeta's feet, but that implies that the manga version of events was pretty much the same anyway!

And look at it this way, Gohan's emotions went from making him way over a thousand times stronger than he initially was against Raditz to getting roughly 50 to 100 times stronger against Freeza on Namek! What I'm saying is that since he's one half of an alien race that gets stronger every time they fight with severe opposition or coming close to death, we can't say that the upper limits of Gohan's potential remains consistent! It could change as he ages and his rate of growth e.g his potential and any training he does could influence that significantly!

As for the comparison you made when referring to the altered size and power of Goku and Vegeta in Buu's body compared to Piccolo's size increase against Goku during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, it's like comparing apples and oranges! Piccolo was using a size altering technique, whereas Buu was using his body to envelope a full-sized opponent and the magic in his body would then shrink them down when he pulled them into himself! Though I can understand it being confusing in light of the pods supposedly giving Buu far more power!

You would think that there was no power decrease, but Goku says to Vegeta: "But he's still stronger than either of us, he'll kill us if we go out like this!" It's actually in the manga, meaning it's originally sourced there! So as weird as it might be it's still credible, I mean Buu is some magical demonic entity who has existed since time immemorial, there is nothing normal about him! He gets weaker absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai, but stronger when he absorbs everyone else, so I get where you're coming from, it completely threw me off balance when it was pointed out to me!

The other thing is why would Goku be acting like Buuiccolo was a joke and that Gohan could handle him if he wasn't implying that he was stronger than Gohan and Buuiccolo wasn't a challenge for him? And why would he think Vegeta wanted to wish everyone back so that Gotenks and Gohan could help out? Sure, Vegeta revealed that he actually wanted Goku to create a Genki-Dama, but the point is Goku thought they could at least help out! It wasn't as if he was implying their combined effort could defeat Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku put up somewhat of a fight against him, so yeah, to me the implication is that Goku was actually the strongest between him and his son back then!

All the evidence I've seen points at it going like this in the DBZ manga:

Buuhan > Buutenks > Kid Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Buuiccolo > Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:21 pm

So, in the Android 13 movie, Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito instead of killing him with that SS genki dama. Who can that SS Vegito beat from Z?
SS Vegito vs LSS Broly
SS Vegito vs Majin Vegeta

What about SS Grade II Vegito?
SS grade II Vegito vs SS3 Goku (dead)
SS grade II Vegito vs Enraged Fat Buu

How strong would a mastered SS Vegito from that arc? can he beat SS3 Gotenks? can he beat Hirudegan?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:25 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:21 pm So, in the Android 13 movie, Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito instead of killing him with that SS genki dama. Who can that SS Vegito beat from Z?
SS Vegito vs LSS Broly
SS Vegito vs Majin Vegeta

What about SS Grade II Vegito?
SS grade II Vegito vs SS3 Goku (dead)
SS grade II Vegito vs Enraged Fat Buu

How strong would a mastered SS Vegito from that arc? can he beat SS3 Gotenks? can he beat Hirudegan?
Base Vegetto in the anime was stronger than Boohan. Assuming that a hypothetical Vegetto in M7 is 10-20x weaker than his Boo arc level then with SSJ, he'd still be the strongest character in DBZ.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:25 am

Future Android 17 and 18 vs the Future Z senshi that they killed but with the help of SS Future Trunks, the one that killed Mecha Freeza.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:33 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:25 am Future Android 17 and 18 vs the Future Z senshi that they killed but with the help of SS Future Trunks, the one that killed Mecha Freeza.
Before his first time travel trip he was stated by bulma to not be Any stronger then Gohan who lost to the same “no longer holding back” #17 that then beats up that trunks.

Later when he comes back during the fight with 19 he says he can fight both of them reasonably well.

So it'd take Android era trunks to seal the deal, the other future fighters could hold off 18 so he can concentrate on 17. Trunks era couldn't do it. We don't know Vegeta is even SS in the future only piccolo probably kept training as much as canon. Trunks saga trunks ain't enough.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Peach » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 pm

Pikkon vs. Broly

Mecha Frieza vs. Dr. Gero

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Alruneia » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:18 pm

Peach wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 pm Pikkon vs. Broly
(insert Dragon Ball AF logo here)
Peach wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 pm Mecha Frieza vs. Dr. Gero
I think that Mecha-Frieza would be able to beat 20 right away, but he'd be arrogant and... well, himself, and he would stretch things out, allowing 20 to get an opportunity to absorb his energy. I'm imagining Frieza being all grandiose and attempting to finish the battle with a supernova attack, and 20 simply grinning and waiting for it to come at him and then absorbing it. Afterwards he could start to turn the fight around, but it's not over just like that, because he has to be careful not to give Frieza the opportunity to blow up the planet. (I mean, his brain should still need oxygen, right?) So honestly, I think both characters could reasonably win this one.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:53 pm

Alruneia wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:18 pm
Peach wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 pm Pikkon vs. Broly
(insert Dragon Ball AF logo here)
Peach wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:51 pm Mecha Frieza vs. Dr. Gero
I think that Mecha-Frieza would be able to beat 20 right away, but he'd be arrogant and... well, himself, and he would stretch things out, allowing 20 to get an opportunity to absorb his energy. I'm imagining Frieza being all grandiose and attempting to finish the battle with a supernova attack, and 20 simply grinning and waiting for it to come at him and then absorbing it. Afterwards he could start to turn the fight around, but it's not over just like that, because he has to be careful not to give Frieza the opportunity to blow up the planet. (I mean, his brain should still need oxygen, right?) So honestly, I think both characters could reasonably win this one.
As others have pointed out, Piccolo was expecting foes stronger than mecha Freeza and was confident going in to battle. He has some trouble with the androids and gives equal odds to the idea they trained too much than that the androids are weak.

I think 19 and 20 are stronger already people just wank Freeza because they prefer him as a character
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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