GatoF wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:25 pm
1 - Ultimate Piccolo vs Post Rosat SSB Vegeta (Black arc)
2 - Android arc Piccolo (Pre Kami assimilation) vs Future SS Vegeta
1 - Ultimate Piccolo vs Post Rosat SSB Vegeta (Black arc): I want to side with Piccolo here. Gamma 2's strength was compared with Goku and Vegeta's. While you can make the argument that the Namekian wasn't taking into account Ultra Instinct I imagine he at least had enough understanding of the blue forms to make a proper assessment. The 'Ultimate' state Piccolo had was unable to defeat Gamma 2 as the android used his full power but it still speaks volumes to Piccolo's own growth that he's prompting his opponent into that full output in the first place. SSJB Vegeta from the Future Trunks arc shouldn't be an issue here.
2 - Android arc Piccolo (Pre Kami assimilation) vs Future SS Vegeta: Scarcely little information exists on how future Vegeta measured up to others. All we know is that the cyborgs easily dispensed with him. In the anime's rendering of the battle Vegeta could do little more than endure a number of attacks from #17 before he was killed off. What's more we hear from Gohan how he wanted to live up to the example of his father by emulating his choice in fighting wear, probably in a symbolic context too but verbally Gohan described how he hoped it would him as powerful as his father. Can we infer from this statement that Goku was the strongest of the group compared to the others who survived him? I would assume so.
By comparison Piccolo from the present timeline had strengthened himself through intensive training with a Super Saiyan that allowed him to be compared to Super Saiyans from the Android arc and he picked apart a cyborg whose power was arguably superior to Freeza. Once again I think the Namekian should win against the Saiyan Prince. It's not even fully known if future Vegeta surpassed SSJ Goku from the Namek arc.
Peach wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:34 pm
Krillin, 18, Tien, Roshi, Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu (Moro arc) vs. Base Black
Goku (Battle of Gods) and Future Trunks vs. Gohan (TOP) and 17 (TOP).
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks vs. Golden Frieza
Krillin, 18, Tien, Roshi, Piccolo, Yamcha, Chiaotzu (Moro arc) vs. Base Black: #18 is the only one who may be strong enough to threaten Black. She was shoulder-to-shoulder with her brother in the dogfight against Moro and demonstrated the same tolerance for his attacks as #17 did. You could make the inference here that she caught up with her brother in strength. What that implies is calling back to #17 brief altercation with Goku in the lead up to the Tournament of Power. The Saiyan was forced into transforming with SSJ3 and even felt it was clear that he was feeling the pressure of his opponent's ferocity. Keep in mind this is some time after the Future Trunks arc ended and Goku has had some time to better his strength. Hopefully she can carry the team here while the humans stand back and spectate.
Goku (Battle of Gods) and Future Trunks vs. Gohan (TOP) and 17 (TOP).: I assume you mean the manga otherwise this seems pretty obvious as Gohan and #17 appeared comparable to the blue fighters at the tournament. On paper we see that Gohan is equally matched with Super Saiyan Kefla; the same Kefla who overwhelmed Dyspo, a Pride Trooper that could tussle with Super Saiyan 3 and #17. On the other hand the progressive upswing in strength from SSJ3 to red has some implications due to the nature of red being superior than the output of what Vegetto could emit, presumably with a SSJ3 form available of his own.
I don't think the manga suggests fighters superior to SSJ3 at the time of the TOP are greater than the weakest iteration of the red form. It's still a humongous leap to make, in my opinion. No doubt the strength standards for the golden forms have elevated dramatically from the Buu arc to TOP but I don't believe it's to the tune of being multiplicatively hundreds of times stronger.
Future Trunks probably won't make much of a difference here but it shouldn't matter with Goku having SSJG available.
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks vs. Golden Frieza: I assume you mean in reference to the Tournament of Power because otherwise the outcome seems like it should be obvious.
Ikari Trunks is capable of handling himself efficiently against Rose Black; quite the power hike for the time travelling survivalist. Still, it's a notable transition between the Future Trunks arc and the Tournament of Power. I think Freeza would still boast an advantage here. After all we see in the anime how Goku went from needing his blue form to challenge Hit in the intermediate narrative post FT to keeping up a similar momentum with the assassin using just SSJG. What does that imply for growth in that period of time? Ikari Trunks won't be able to win here against an opponent who was able to stalemate against the blue form from the TOP.
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:51 am
Hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Future Trunks (DB Super) vs Zamasu and Hypothetical Super Saiyan Goku Black (anime)
Super Saiyan 3 isn't going to offer enough of an increase to compensate for the amplification coming from Super Saiyan; not for someone who was stronger than than Trunks with his SSJ2 form available. It's essentially a 4x multiplier compared with a 50x multiplier. The presence of Zamasu here helping his physical superior only makes this even more of an impossible battle for Trunks.
MrGohanks wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:36 pm
SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs Enraged Vegeta (BoG)
Piccolo (Buu saga) vs SSJ1 Trunks (Cell Games)
SSG Gogeta (End of Moro arc) vs 3rd UI Omen Goku (ToP anime)
Majuub (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Buuhan (Buu arc Vegito absorbed)
SSJ3 Future Gohan (both arms) vs 2nd Form Cell
SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga) vs Enraged Vegeta (BoG): We can probably discount the observation Beerus made of being forced into putting out 10% of his overall strength against Vegeta since his position on the food chain has ambiguously shifted during on the conditions of the present arc/saga. But that aside, the Saiyan Prince was in a hopeless situation that he couldn't possibly overcome on his own. Vegetto was dismissed as being unable to stand a chance either. Next to Vegeta the fusions in base seem to consistently be superior to the greatest output used by their fusees unless it's something fleeting and semi inaccessible like Ultra Instinct in the TOP or the enraged state in BOG. I think it can be concluded that Vegetto's strongest is better than enraged Vegeta so he should win.
Piccolo (Buu saga) vs SSJ1 Trunks (Cell Games): My own projections have Piccolo ranking somewhere from an equal of the Cell Jrs to being a moderately paced superior of theirs. I think that should speak for itself on how this battle unfolds, particularly with the discrepancies in technique and experience.
SSG Gogeta (End of Moro arc) vs 3rd UI Omen Goku (ToP anime): I don't consider there to be enough of a differential from UIO in the final portion of the TOP to compensate for what fusion in tandem with SSJG provides. Gogeta should win this, in my opinion.
Majuub (Shadow Dragon arc) vs Buuhan (Buu arc Vegito absorbed): Buugetto seems poised to win this fight. I'm not too familiar with the Shadow Dragon saga but Uub's status seemed to have wane from its peak in the latter part of the Baby saga. In his last outing it was all Uub could do to match the performance of the Saiyan youth with their regular Super Saiyan forms.
SSJ3 Future Gohan (both arms) vs 2nd Form Cell: At his strongest Future Gohan was still the weaker fighter against #17 who outpaced him even with half of his power. The power ladder has Semi-Cell as greatly superior to his imperfect counterpart that withstood an all out attack from an equal to the present timeline #17 who is stronger relative to his future counterpart. An eight fold amplification is nothing to scoff at but I'm not sure if it would be enough here. Future Gohan was already fairly unimpressive if you consider that he probably wasn't much better relative to his father from Namek. In addition Cell could rely on his tail to absorb some of Gohan's biomass and energy.
Tien (Cell Games) vs Base Goku (start of Android arc)
SSG Goku (start of ToP) vs SSJ1 Vegito (RoF arc)
SSB Vegeta (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Vegeta (Shadow Dragon arc)
SSJ Rage Trunks (Cell games) vs Base Gogeta (U6 arc)
Ultimate Gohan (end of Namek arc) vs Super Perfect Cell
Tien (Cell Games) vs Base Goku (start of Android arc): Interesting choice in opponents. My take is that Tenshinhan and Krillin firmly surpassed the base Saiyans from the Namek arc. We see him demonstrating the perception and reflexes needed to avoid a Bionic Punisher from Gero in tandem with Goku. I don't think Tenshinhan is equal to base Goku but he's perhaps good enough to put up a good fight. Unfortunately that's not going to be enough here and with the availability of the Kaioken, Goku should win this match. The only possibility for an upset lies in the Shin Kikoho. Good luck getting the trajectory of it right since Goku is all too familiar with that technique.
SSG Goku (start of ToP) vs SSJ1 Vegito (RoF arc): Probably Vegetto since I don't believe the Saiyans managed to increase their strength fifty fold to compensate here. Goku could always try the Mafuba but his fused counterpart should naturally be aware of it thanks to his own Goku fusee's knowledge and by extension how to counter it.
SSB Vegeta (Buu saga) vs SSJ4 Vegeta (Shadow Dragon arc): The blue form without a doubt grants Vegeta from his earlier years the victory. Super Saiyan 4 is impressive and Vegeta did train a good amount but the blue form is vast in its scope; greater than the form which is more assuring of its power than what Vegetto can offer at his own strongest.
SSJ Rage Trunks (Cell games) vs Base Gogeta (U6 arc): I don't know. The hypothetical here with Ikari Trunks seems farfetched. It's debatable if he's even on par with the blue form from ROF. When Goku transformed into SSJG for the first time his base state had improved a good amount from where it was during the Cell Games. When I think about it my first inclination is to side with Gogeta. The Kaioken amplifying the fusion's strength takes away any doubts I may have had here.
Ultimate Gohan (end of Namek arc) vs Super Perfect Cell: Does Gohan even have enough potential as a 5 year old to reap the benefits of what his 18 year old self inherently possessed in the Buu arc? I don't think so. Who knows how powerful Gohan would be here. Stronger than his father and the tyrant, Freeza, yes. Maybe the cyborgs would be defeatable here too. Anything further beyond that sounds far fetched at best. Keep in mind Gohan's power was only in the hundred thousands range while calm during the climax of the Freeza arc anyway. To go from that to surpassing his Super Saiyan father and Freeza at 100% is already a leap that arguably surpasses what Gohan in the Buu arc achieved.