The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Thani]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

If he could, he would have done so, I think. He skipped even God and went straight to Blue. The jump in power from Broly's SS to FPSS was really that massive.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

If he could, he would have done so, I think.

I think Gogeta didn't use Super Saiyan 3 because it sucks up ki like a sponge, and as we all know, Metamoran fusion and Super Saiyan 3 don't mix well.

[Galan007]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

The fact that Gogeta went from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), suggests that FPSS Broly was operating at a level that Gogeta didn't think any of his other forms could handle.

[TobyS]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

The fact that Gogeta went from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), suggests that FPSS Broly was operating at a level that Gogeta didn't think any of his other forms could handle.

But this is why the whole movie had stupid Toei wank scaling, if Gogeta needed Blue, he should have been pasted in Base and SS1.

Given how much Blue dominated, I think God could do it, SS3, certainly not before the fusion ran out.

Would like to see a hypothetical Toyo verison of Broly.

[Thani]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

The fact that Gogeta went from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), suggests that FPSS Broly was operating at a level that Gogeta didn't think any of his other forms could handle.

But this is why the whole movie had stupid Toei wank scaling, if Gogeta needed Blue, he should have been pasted in Base and SS1.

Given how much Blue dominated, I think God could do it, SS3, certainly not before the fusion ran out.

Would like to see a hypothetical Toyo verison of Broly.

But we were kinda shown his version in the manga, however brief it was. Gogeta still used Blue to defeat him.

[Galan007]

But this is why the whole movie had stupid Toei wank scaling, if Gogeta needed Blue, he should have been pasted in Base and SS1.

Given how much Blue dominated, I think God could do it, SS3, certainly not before the fusion ran out.

Would like to see a hypothetical Toyo verison of Broly.

After Broly initially went FPSS, he and SS1 Gogeta only had a very brief exchange(wherein Broly was clearly superior), and then Gogeta transformed all the way up to SSB. Obviously Gogeta can very accurately sense ki, so it would make sense for him to assume a form that he felt was powerful enough to deal with Broly(hence SSB)... But that's just my two cents.

As for your other point: SSB Gogeta was indeed superior to FPSS Broly -- he was a much better all-around fighter, and also had far better control over his power. However, Broly still soaked everything SSB Gogeta dished out, and seemed to just keep getting more powerful the entire time. So far as we know, the only attack from Gogeta that would have put Broly down for sure was his final 'full-force' Kamehameha.

That being said, I'm not exactly convinced that Gogeta, wielding a far inferior power(like SS3 or SSG), would have been sufficient to handle FPSS Broly in the long run. SSG *might* have been enough for Gogeta to style on Broly for a bit(due to the aforementioned reasons)... But actually defeat him? I have my doubts. /shrug

[Hellspawn28]

SSj2 Cell Saga Vegeta vs. Super Perfect Cell

Would Vegeta be just as strong as Gohan, stronger, or weaker.

[p-hyvo]

SSj2 Cell Saga Vegeta vs. Super Perfect Cell

Would Vegeta be just as strong as Gohan, stronger, or weaker.

Way weaker.

Gohan was much stronger in base than Vegeta and Vegeta doesn't have the rageboost gimmick like Gohan

[PurestEvil]

Magenta vs. Commander Red

Sharpner vs. Jaco

Pilaf vs. Shuu

Who would win in a fist fight?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gas vs. Jiren, LSSj DBS Broli, and Cell Max

Can Gas take them down all at once?

Gas, easily. Jiren and Broly are fodder and I don’t think Cell Max is much stronger than them.

Let's say that somehow, instead of turning Super Saiyan 2, Gohan gains access to his Beast form after Android 16 is killed in the Cell Arc, with a rage boost as well. How far would he get in this gauntlet?

1. Super Saiyan 3 Goku (Buu Arc)

2. Ultimate Gohan (Buu Arc)

3. Buuhan

4. Super Vegito (Buu Arc)

5. Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (RoF Arc)

6. Hit (U6 Arc)

7. Goku Black (Scythe)



Keep in mind his experience (or lack thereof) compared to his adult form, his base power since its the Cell Arc, but also the sheer power of the Beast form, as well as a massive rage boost. I have Beast form slightly above UI and UE, so I think it's interesting to think about.

Beast form’s multiplier seems to be something comparable to UI, maybe greater since Gohan is probably stronger than UI Goku was. Obviously he beats SSJ3 Goku, Ultimate Gohan and Gohan-Boo. He might squeak by Vegetto, but then SSJB Vegeta is like a million stronger than Vegetto, so he stops there.

Vegeta [RoF arc; No transformations] vs SS3 Gotenks. Can Gotenks fare better against this Vegeta?
Gamma 1 vs Gamma 2.
Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs Base Toppo [No GoD form].
Orange Piccolo vs UIO Goku [ToP arc; EP 129].
Krillin vs Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan]. Both from the ToP arc.
SS Broly [No FPSS] vs SS2 Kefla.

Vegeta still wins easily, at worst he wouldn’t be as dominant but Gotenks is still a punching bag. It was believed Goku and Vegeta were nearing their limits, so I don’t think from RoF to the start of the Black Saga Goku and Vegeta improved much. Maybe 2x at best.

It’s a tie. I really can’t see anything that would give either android any edge. Gamma 1 may be more no nonsense, but Gamma 2 knows when to get serious.

I’ll take Gohan. He had the upperhand on guys about as strong as Goku and Vegeta 3 years after the ToP.

Goku, but it might be close. Piccolo rivals KKx20 SSJB Goku 3 years after the ToP and Broly, and UI Sign isn’t many times stronger than KKx20. Only reason I have Goku winning is because it’s UI, Piccolo could very well be stronger in raw power.

Kuririn. From what we’ve seen Trunks hasn’t even been training and is considered a lesser warrior on his own.

Even Ikari Broly wins.

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

Definitely not. Broly probably would’ve smashed any other lesser form.

[quote=Galan007 post_id=<a href="tel:1751948">1751948</a> time=<a href="tel:1662984160">1662984160</a> user_id=115243]
[quote=FPSSJ4_Goku post_id=<a href="tel:1751924">1751924</a> time=<a href="tel:1662938265">1662938265</a> user_id=125410]
Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

The fact that Gogeta went from SS1, all the way to SSB(bypassing SS2, SS3, and SSG), suggests that FPSS Broly was operating at a level that Gogeta didn't think any of his other forms could handle.
[/quote]

But this is why the whole movie had stupid Toei wank scaling, if Gogeta needed Blue, he should have been pasted in Base and SS1.

Given how much Blue dominated, I think God could do it, SS3, certainly not before the fusion ran out.

Would like to see a hypothetical Toyo verison of Broly.
[/quote]

Yeah that was so weird. Base Gogeta didn’t really do anything other than run away, but SSJ Gogeta was his equal. Broly then goes LSSJ yet doesn’t knock Gogeta’s head off with his first punch. I think Broly might have been just SSJ2-3 level at first but his power kept increasing. Gogeta could’ve been holding back in the beginning, but in the end he was clearly going all out and needing a Big Bang Kamehameha to finish Broly for good.

Given how Goku went through the same process vs Granola, I wouldn’t expect Toyotaro to be any different.

[TobyS]

Goku used lower forms at the start of the Gas fight because he was trying to use UI in them, I think Gogeta would not stay in base for more than a second just like Vegito in the black arc going straight to blue.

If he dicked around first I feel like it would be in God not ss1

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku used lower forms at the start of the Gas fight because he was trying to use UI in them, I think Gogeta would not stay in base for more than a second just like Vegito in the black arc going straight to blue.

If he dicked around first I feel like it would be in God not ss1

Goku also went through each one of his transformations fighting Toppo, and so did Vegeta vs Moro. I think going through most, if not all forms is like a common warm up trope regardless of the writer.

Vegetto does transform straight away in the anime doesn’t he? I remember he blasts Zamasu before fighting in the manga. If Gogeta is anything like him then he should definitely have gone straight to business, but then I don’t think Broly would’ve lived…

Which reminds me, I’ve seen an interview with AT saying SSJFP was Toei’s idea. In his original script it probably would’ve been just SSJB Gogeta vs SSJ Broly but they had to extend the fight and threw in other forms.

[Thani]

Goku used lower forms at the start of the Gas fight because he was trying to use UI in them, I think Gogeta would not stay in base for more than a second just like Vegito in the black arc going straight to blue.

If he dicked around first I feel like it would be in God not ss1

Goku also went through each one of his transformations fighting Toppo, and so did Vegeta vs Moro. I think going through most, if not all forms is like a common warm up trope regardless of the writer.

Vegetto does transform straight away in the anime doesn’t he? I remember he blasts Zamasu before fighting in the manga. If Gogeta is anything like him then he should definitely have gone straight to business, but then I don’t think Broly would’ve lived…

Which reminds me, I’ve seen an interview with AT saying SSJFP was Toei’s idea. In his original script it probably would’ve been just SSJB Gogeta vs SSJ Broly but they had to extend the fight and threw in other forms.

Broly going full power was on the script iirc, the addition was Broly's hair turning green. And it was from Shintani, who thought it would be a cool nod to Z Broly (and because Broly with green hair is as iconic as it gets), which Toriyama agreed and backed up.

[Goku9001]

I think Gogeta definitely needed Blue to defeat FPSSJ Broly. On top of using Stardust Breaker, Gogeta landed multiple critical blows by infusing ki within his fists, initiated an attack that exploded ki within Broly's body, and required a Full Power Kamehameha to ensure he was defeated. I don't see anything within the fight that suggests Gogeta didn't need Blue. He was decisively above Broly but that's really the extent of it.

Vegeta [RoF arc; No transformations] vs SS3 Gotenks. Can Gotenks fare better against this Vegeta?
Gamma 1 vs Gamma 2.
Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs Base Toppo [No GoD form].
Orange Piccolo vs UIO Goku [ToP arc; EP 129].
Krillin vs Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan]. Both from the ToP arc.
SS Broly [No FPSS] vs SS2 Kefla.

Base Vegeta [RoF] vs. SSJ3 Gotenks: I personally don't think it makes much of a difference. Vegeta was on par with Goku outside of Blue Kaioken and Base Goku was capable of fighting an Outraged Beerus so it's clear that the intention here is that Base Goku and Base Vegeta still retained their god-like base. Aside from that, nothing really suggests that Goku and Vegeta got that much stronger so Base Vegeta should still be much stronger here.

Gamma 1 vs. Gamma 2: I don't really know. Both seemed relatively equal to me. Gamma 2 had a good edge on Ultimate Piccolo whereas Gamma 1 was just slightly weaker than Ultimate Gohan. I would assume that since both know eachothers' weaknesses (if they have any) and they are equal, then it would end in a stalemate like Goku vs. Majin Vegeta did.

Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs. Base Toppo: Ultimate Gohan would win. As powerful as Toppo was, Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta advanced significantly during the tournament and the Gammas were somewhat comparable to Blue Goku/Blue Vegeta, which I'd assume would be a reference to their ToP powers. As such, Ultimate Gohan should win decisively.

Orange Piccolo vs. UI Omen Goku [Ep 129]: Orange Piccolo should be weaker. As powerful as Orange Piccolo was, Toriyama clarified that Orange Piccolo was catching up to Goku and Vegeta. I would assume in the anime continuity, this would be a reference to Kaioken x20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta. The narrative also implies that only Gohan had the power to be the "mightiest warrior" so only he would be capable of surpassing that level. UI Omen Goku is still considerably stronger than Kaioken x20 Blue Goku and Blue Evolved Vegeta so I would assume Piccolo would lose here.

Kuririn vs. Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan] Both ToP: Kuririn would likely win because of his battle experience and his tricks with Kienzan are pretty gnarly.

SSJ Broly vs. SSJ2 Kefla: The novelization implies that SSJ Broly was stronger than Jiren but even without that, the Blue Saiyans demonstrated power surpassing Kefla and SSJ Broly is clearly way above that. Broly wins.

[BagetaSama]

Awakened Jiren & Full Power Broly vs Cell Max

Base Goku (End of Granolah arc) vs SSG Goku (ToP arc)

Base Vegeta (End of Moro arc) vs SSJ2 Caulifla & SSJ2 Cabba

Ultimate Gohan (Superhero) vs SSJR Goku Black in his prime & Spirit Sword Trunks

Kaioken x10 Goku (Start of Z) vs Nappa (no tail)

Broly wins on his own, Toriyama said as much in the interview.

In the manga continuity, SSG is still a pretty massive power-up, and Goku did adapt to the SSG power so he didn't have that major way to "catch up" to that level of power. So I mean, Base Goku gets obliterated no contest.

Base Vegeta and SSJ2 Caulifla/Cabba aren't even part of the same continuity? One is anime only and one is manga only. Am I supposed to apply Vegeta's power-ups he received in the manga, to his anime incarnation? If so, then yeah I think Vegeta dominates considering how massive his power-up was at the end of the ToP in the anime, and how huge his power-up was with the Yardrat training finally resolving his major weakness mentioned during RoF. Assuming this composite iteration of Vegeta, then yeah he one shots.

Gohan beats Black pretty easily, Genki Sword Trunks is such a wild card, I have no idea how strong he's supposed to be so I can't even answer. Gohan seems to be on the level of SSB Goku/Vegeta at such a later time,

If we take the Guide's number of 4k, then I think it's a really close fight, if we ignore the guides and just go by the manga, then Nappa wins pretty easily imo.

Anime Z Vegetto vs Yellow-Green Piccolo from SuperHero

Anime Z Vegetto vs Super Saiyan Gohan from SuperHero

Filler Yamcha from Grand Supreme Kai Planet(when Kid Boo appeared) vs Base Kid Gohan from beginning of Android Saga

Vegetto gets one shot in both fights, Filler Yamcha obliterates the entirety of the Cell arc let alone Kid Gohan at the beginning of the arc lol.

The narrator's description of how the Saiyans were doing against Merged Zamasu definitely does make it clear that the Saiyans got stronger since it came directly from the horse's mouth.

Well but how much of that is that Goku is exerting enough power that the force of the KHH broke his arms, rather than his baseline power actually increasing?

Vegeta [RoF arc; No transformations] vs SS3 Gotenks. Can Gotenks fare better against this Vegeta?
Gamma 1 vs Gamma 2.
Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs Base Toppo [No GoD form].
Orange Piccolo vs UIO Goku [ToP arc; EP 129].
Krillin vs Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan]. Both from the ToP arc.
SS Broly [No FPSS] vs SS2 Kefla.

I mean, Vegeta didn't get much stronger between the RoF arc and the Universe 6/Copy Vegeta arcs. He only trained in the ROSAT in a time where he said the benefits were more or less marginal. We saw that strength one shot SSJ3 Gotenks, entertain Beerus in base, and be wayyyy above First Form Freeza who was above everyone else to that point, his Base is just on a different level from everyone that isn't Goku lol. First Form Freeza->Final Form should be a ~110x boost like it was on Namek from 530K->60M, and so the gap should be over a hundred times between Vegeta, and everyone else like SSJ Gotenks, who was relative to Tagoma, who was weaker than First Form Freeza.

Idk I always just assumed both Gammas were the same power.

Do we know that Gohan got any stronger since the ToP? I don't think we really know that, maybe since he's two years older, his Ultimate form which brings out his potential, made him stronger? It's impossible to know, but if I assume he hasn't gotten any stronger then obviously Base Toppo wins.

Goku one shots. Piccolo is relative to SSB Goku/Vegeta according to Toriyama.

Uhhhhh, Trunks as a SSJ is stronger, but I don't really know how his Base state compares to Krillin? if I assume Krillin is on 18's level, and Trunks needed SSJ to beat her, then I would maybe go with Krillin.

SSJ Broly wins no contest, assuming that Goku/Vegeta got a massive boost during the ToP, their SSB forms may have surpassed Kefla, and SSJ Broly was on a totally different level from Goku/Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

The narrator's description of how the Saiyans were doing against Merged Zamasu definitely does make it clear that the Saiyans got stronger since it came directly from the horse's mouth.

Well but how much of that is that Goku is exerting enough power that the force of the KHH broke his arms, rather than his baseline power actually increasing?

Most of it was a result of his Saiyan physiology allowing his own baseline to increase drastically. I think that is clear from the beginning when we are shown that none of their attacks could even threaten Merged Zamasu when he was just toying around with them initially. This is why both Goku and Vegeta make it a point that they need to break through their limits i.e grow stronger to fight him. It's also why we see that Blue Goku could kick Merged Zamasu around and quickly break out of his grasp with the Kaioken despite having already exhausted himself.

[TobyS]

Vegeta [RoF arc; No transformations] vs SS3 Gotenks. Can Gotenks fare better against this Vegeta?
Gamma 1 vs Gamma 2.
Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs Base Toppo [No GoD form].
Orange Piccolo vs UIO Goku [ToP arc; EP 129].
Krillin vs Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan]. Both from the ToP arc.
SS Broly [No FPSS] vs SS2 Kefla.

Gotenks ignoring beyond god anime filler.

The red one.

Gohan. Topo is on par with blue vegeta. Ultimate Gohan in the Moro arc is around Moro arc blue. Gohan might not be above evolved blue from the top but he's still above Toppo.

Orange Piccolo is around Goku and vegeta level now apparently. I think full current UI might be above him but uio is a notch below that and old top era uio lower still. Perhaps piccolo is current uio level but above the top one.

I maintain the base kids were never shit, it was super Saiyan that made them competitive and fusion after that.

They do then go in the ROSAT and make great gains.

However after that the kids stop training, presumably lose power like Gohan, yo! Seems to imply this. and Kuririn starts training again so it's hard to say.

I know the humans were chosen for the top and Moro arcs due to their experience but outside roshi I feel like they would need to be above the base kids to hang in.

I can't remember who ss1 Broly fought against.

[Koitsukai]

Could Gogeta have beaten Broly with Super Saiyan 3 alone?

Nah. Even though he wasn't destroyed by FPSS Broly as a regular SS, Broly kept getting stronger. I think SSG would've gotten the job done, but in a much more evenly-matched way, and a time-limited fusion cannot afford something like that.
Bonus thought: since Toriyama talked about SS being a form that could be mastered in such a manner that could utilize SS2 and SS3's power, and since Vegeta already can use a SS form that surpasses SS3 Goku, it wouldn't be crazy to think SS Gogeta was actually as strong as a SS3 Gogeta by the time SS Broly unlocked his FP.

SSj2 Cell Saga Vegeta vs. Super Perfect Cell

Would Vegeta be just as strong as Gohan, stronger, or weaker.

His base and SS forms were way below Gohan's, so his SS2 would be inferior too. We never saw a healthy Gohan fighting SPC, but if he managed to kill him with just one arm, I think SS2 Vegeta might lose to Cell but not without giving him a decent run for his money.

Magenta vs. Commander Red

Sharpner vs. Jaco

Pilaf vs. Shuu

Who would win in a fist fight?

1- Red seemed to be a little more aggressive than Magenta.

2- Jaco fought the Freeza forces, while Sharpner is not even fighting crime.

3- My money is on Shuu because he is a dog or fox or something.

Vegeta [RoF arc; No transformations] vs SS3 Gotenks. Can Gotenks fare better against this Vegeta?
Gamma 1 vs Gamma 2.
Ultimate Gohan [Super Hero] vs Base Toppo [No GoD form].
Orange Piccolo vs UIO Goku [ToP arc; EP 129].
Krillin vs Kid Trunks [No Super Saiyan]. Both from the ToP arc.
SS Broly [No FPSS] vs SS2 Kefla.

1- In RoF, the saiyan base forms are out of this world, enough to wipe the floor with a FF Freeza that should be above Buuhan. No matter what happens later, in RoF, only Super Vegito might be able to stand up to a base Vegeta. In the Potafu arc, Goku says Copy Geets is using the power of SSG or something like that vs Gotenks, so that seems to be how their fight in RoF would've turned out.

2- I'm going with G1. He seemed more collected to me.

3- Gohan should win here. He was a bit ahead of a character said to be on Goku's level. Gamma1 and Toppo should be damn close.

4- Unfortunately, I don't think Orange Piccolo is strong enough for Sign. Above SSBE and KKx20, strong enough to fight Kefla and Hakaishin Toppo, but 3rd Sign should be just a bit too much for him.

5- I'm not sure how strong base Trunks is supposed to be, like ever, in any given arc. He wasn't that far behind his father in the Buu arc, I cannot say the same about Krilin, who should've been way below him, but in DBS he kept training while Trunks disappeared. Pachinko head managed to outsmart Gohan prior to the ToP, I doubt Trunks could do much better than Gohan.

6- Broly seemed to be on a level between every other ToP participant and 3rd Sign and a dressed FP Jiren. I don't think Kefla is that much behind Broly, though.

[Champa The Destroyer]

To be honest Orange Piccolo is being huge underrated.

I think Superhero has to take into account the latest arcs, or at the very least, the Moro arc (if you don't want to include the granolah arc since it's ongoing), I can't see any reason at all why it would be a different continuity where the entire Moro arc never happened.

And Orange Piccolo isn't merely post Moro arc SSB level, the gammas were stated to be SSB level iirc. And Orange Piccolo one shotted one of the gammas, meaning, in my mind, he one shotted a post Moro arc SSB level fighter. Which is Goku after training with Merus, and Vegeta after training on Yardrat, where they both became MONUMENTALLY stronger

I just don't see the tournament of power as the gold standard of power scaling that it was in 2018, because of the new movies and the Manga, we've moved far past it.

In my mind Orange Piccolo is Jiren or T.O.P. MUI level, considering Vegeta in his blue form after yardrat training (and eventually goku ending up equal) was doing comparable to previous Goku's Moro arc UIO, which should be far above the UIO in the tournament.

And Piccolo dominated someone who was compared to that same goku and vegeta.

So it makes sense for me for Orange Piccolo to be on the level of the tournament of power top tiers, but solidly below the top tiers of the Moro arc or Granolah Arc. Whereas Beast Gohan would be at or slightly above the top tiers in those arcs (excluding Frieza)

[ZombieVito]

In my mind Orange Piccolo is Jiren or T.O.P. MUI level, considering Vegeta in his blue form after yardrat training (and eventually goku ending up equal) was doing comparable to previous Goku's Moro arc UIO, which should be far above the UIO in the tournament.

That was SSBE Vegeta.