The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:12 am

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:11 pm 22nd TB Krilin vs RRA army. Can he take them all just like Goku did one arc prior? 3 years have passed, does he have what it takes?
Yes. By that point, Krillin was confident in being capable of battling Goku after watching him battle at the Fortune Teller Baba gauntlet and knowing that Goku had gotten considerably stronger over the 3 years as well. Krillin should be capable of clearing with no problems.

23rd TB Krilin vs RRA arc Tao Pai Pai and Sargent Metallic at the same time.
Krillin is much stronger than Old Piccolo Daimao at this moment in time, so he should have no problems clearing.
23rd TB Krilin vs Roshi.
Roshi confirmed that Krillin, Yamcha, and co. have all surpassed him hence why Roshi refrains from participating in the tournament. Krillin is definitely stronger than him.

Raditz arc Krilin vs Cyborg Tao Pai Pai, Sargent Metallic, and 22nd TB Tenshinhan.
This one is interesting. I'd still give it to Krillin considering the only major threat here is Cyborg Tao Pai Pai and Krillin performed very well against Piccolo who was presumably using more power than Tenshinhan did against Cyborg Tao Pai Pai. Krillin was also capable of following TB23rd Tenshinhan's movements. Unless Cyborg Tao Pai Pai tags him with a Dodonpa, Krillin should take this.
Saiyan saga Krilin vs 23rd TB Piccolo Jr, 23rd TB Goku, Piccolo Daimao.
Saiyan Saga Krillin is many times stronger than all of those three. He should clear with no problems.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:00 am

Buuhan absorbs Hirudegan final form, Super Perfect Cell, Dabura, Z Freeza, and manages to absorb SS3 Gotenks (no time limit)... can he take BoG SSG Goku?

Now, this Buu with every Z villain absorbed, gets ahold of the movie timeline and absorbs Bojack, Android 13, Janemba, Metal Cooler and Z Vegito... who from DBS can take this Buu?

And what if this Super Z Buu absorbs the Shadow Dragons, Super 17 and Ohzaru Vegeta Baby... who can defeat him from DBS?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:19 pm

SONIC VS GOKU


SONIC HAS BEATEN AN INTERDIMENSIONAL GOD IN HIS SUPER FORM AND WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HYPER SONIC CAN DO GUYS

LET'S HAVE A CLEAN, HEALTHY, CONSTRUCTIVE BATTLE TO THE DEATH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:42 pm

BeaBumby wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:19 pm SONIC VS GOKU


SONIC HAS BEATEN AN INTERDIMENSIONAL GOD IN HIS SUPER FORM AND WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HYPER SONIC CAN DO GUYS

LET'S HAVE A CLEAN, HEALTHY, CONSTRUCTIVE BATTLE TO THE DEATH
With my very limited knowledge of Sonic, I'm pretty sure at his most powerful he could beat Goku.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BeaBumby » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:50 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:42 pm
BeaBumby wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:19 pm SONIC VS GOKU


SONIC HAS BEATEN AN INTERDIMENSIONAL GOD IN HIS SUPER FORM AND WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT HYPER SONIC CAN DO GUYS

LET'S HAVE A CLEAN, HEALTHY, CONSTRUCTIVE BATTLE TO THE DEATH
With my very limited knowledge of Sonic, I'm pretty sure at his most powerful he could beat Goku.
holy crap really? I wasn't expected someone to say Sonic would win
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:05 am

BeaBumby wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:50 pm holy crap really? I wasn't expected someone to say Sonic would win
Lol I just think it's a safe bet. :)
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:49 pm

Who is the strongest character that a ultimate fusion of every human on Earth can beat? I'm talking about every human that is not Mr. Satan, Roshi, Kurillin, etc was able to fused into one warrior.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:16 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:40 am 1- Final Form Cooler vs Mecha Freeza

2- 1st form Cell absorbs 19 and 20, how strong does he get? can he beat Super Vegeta or the Broly-ish Super Trunks?

3- Dabura vs 8 Cell Jrs.

4- Namek Vegeta (can go Ohzaru) vs Reecoome, Burta and Jeece.
---what if Ginyu joins the fight?

5- Kid Piccolo Jr. vs Kid Goku (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)
---- what about against 22nd TB Goku?

6- Janemba vs SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta, but on Earth (much more drain for Goku, not everything is magically turned into a weapon for Janny)

7- Hoi vs Babidi (one has Hirudegan, the other one has Fat Boo)

8- King Vegeta III vs Saiyan arc Goku (no KK)

9- Buu arc Tenshinhan and Chaozu vs Abo and Kado (they can fuse if they survive)

10- Buu arc Yamcha vs Saiyan arc Vegeta and Nappa
1. Both are portrayed as being stronger than Namek Frieza. I believe Cooler wins though, given that I have Mecha Frieza somewhat equal to Namek SSJ Goku while Cooler is probably above.

2. Those two androids are far weaker than 17 and 18, so I don't think it will be enough against Super Vegeta and Super Trunks.

3. Dabura is as strong as Super Perfect Cell, who is far above a Cell Jr. Yeah, Dabura kills them all.

4. If it's the 24K Vegeta then I'm sure he could easily beat the Ginyu Force with a power level of 240K. That's twice as strong as Ginyu.

5. I'm sure Kid Piccolo Jr. takes this easily against even 22nd Budokai Goku.

6. This one is obvious. Janemba easily dominates them both. He did it to a superior SSJ3 Goku, an inferior SSJ3 Goku that can't use his full power will get beaten worse.

7. Not sure about this one. Maybe Babidi?

8. King Vegeta wins. He should be somewhere around or slightly above 10K, whereas Goku was only slightly above 8K. Of course, this is Goku without Kaioken so he has that disadvantage.

9. If Tien and Chiaotzu do everything they can to fight them (including Neo Tri Beam), then they might pull it off. Abo and Kado fusing would be an instant defeat for the two.

10. Yamcha should stomp them easily. There's no way he is that weak. Even if they go Oozaru, Yamcha should win.

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:11 pm 22nd TB Krilin vs RRA army. Can he take them all just like Goku did one arc prior? 3 years have passed, does he have what it takes?

23rd TB Krilin vs RRA arc Tao Pai Pai and Sargent Metallic at the same time.

23rd TB Krilin vs Roshi.

Raditz arc Krilin vs Cyborg Tao Pai Pai, Sargent Metallic, and 22nd TB Tenshinhan.

Saiyan saga Krilin vs 23rd TB Piccolo Jr, 23rd TB Goku, Piccolo Daimao.
1. 22nd TB Krillin was implied to be Goku's strongest opponent at the time (given how Goku said he had never enjoyed such a good fight), which means Krillin was at least stronger than Tao and Grandpa Gohan, which also means he possibly reached Post Korin Goku level or even surpassing it, which would make sense since Krillin and Yamcha were at least confident to win the tournament not counting whatever big gains Goku could have received during the previous 3 years. Based on this, I'm sure Krillin can easily take the RRA army just like Post Korin Goku did.

2. Krillin stomps this easily. He was implied to be below King Piccolo and Post Ultra Divine Water Kid Goku level, based on him being amazed at Weighted Goku's speed, which was the same speed as Post Ultra Divine Water Kid Goku's. But he was also able to see his movements against Tien, while Cyborg Tao couldn't. Cyborg Tao was clearly implied to be above 22nd Budokai Tien and Goku, and those two could also win this match with ease. Even 22nd TB Roshi should take this with ease given that he was confirmed to be way above Post Korin Goku.

3. This one was confirmed in the story by Roshi himself. Krillin wins with ease.

4. If this was 23rd TB Krillin, this might have been a victory for a team if Cyborg Tao aims his Super Dodonpa at him with 22nd Tien as support (Sargent Metallic is fodder at this point). But since this is Raditz Arc Krillin, and logically he got stronger during those 5 years, then I think Krillin could take this.

5. Krillin was already above Raditz, and has more skill. 23rd TB Piccolo doesn't have Makankosappo, and it was because of that technique plus Enraged Gohan's help that they could kill Raditz. Not only Piccolo doesn't have this technique here, but he and Goku are also far weaker since these are their 23rd TB versions. No way they could touch this Krillin, and Piccolo Daimao is complete fodder that would just be in the way.

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:09 am Seen on another thread: Chaozu vs Chichi at the 23rd TB. Who wins?
Chichi probaly is stronger physically but Chaozu has some techniques even Goku struggled with.
I believe Chiaotzu wins this. I have Chi Chi somewhere between Tsuru and Roshi's level just like their official power levels (120 for Tsuru, 130 for Chi Chi and 139 for Roshi respectively), while I have this Chiaotzu slightly above Roshi. It's not a one sided fight at all, but Chiaotzu still has his special techniques so I think these could give him an easier win.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Moro vs. Super 17

Rules:
Blance power levels
Moro can absorb Super 17 like he did with 7-3
No outside help

Who wins?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:29 pm

Kaioken 20x + SSGSS3 Vegetto (no stamina drain) runs the gauntlet:

- Jiren
- Broly
- Moro
- Granola
- Beerus & Champa
- Whis
- Vados
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:21 pm

Noah wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:29 pm Kaioken 20x + SSGSS3 Vegetto (no stamina drain) runs the gauntlet:

- Jiren
- Broly
- Moro
- Granola
- Beerus & Champa
- Whis
- Vados
All of these go down at the same time:
- Jiren
- Broly
- Moro
- Granola

The rest are still out of his league, probably.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:24 am

22nd Budokai Tenshinhan vs King Piccolo saga Yajirobe

Goku remarked that he'd never met anyone who could withstand as much from him during their fight, and this was just after fighting Tenshinhan not long before. That said, I doubt Yajirobe could match Tenshinhan's techniques.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:51 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:24 am 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan vs King Piccolo saga Yajirobe

Goku remarked that he'd never met anyone who could withstand as much from him during their fight, and this was just after fighting Tenshinhan not long before. That said, I doubt Yajirobe could match Tenshinhan's techniques.
Probably, Yajirobe.
I don't rememeber the exact circumstances of their first -and only- fight, Goku was pretty battered and hadn't eaten in a while I think. Anyway, he was quite impressive and he also has his sword. It wouldn't be a stomp either way. Not long after he climbed Karin's tower, right? so he was indeed very much capable. I like the guy so maybe I'm biased.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:54 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:51 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:24 am 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan vs King Piccolo saga Yajirobe

Goku remarked that he'd never met anyone who could withstand as much from him during their fight, and this was just after fighting Tenshinhan not long before. That said, I doubt Yajirobe could match Tenshinhan's techniques.
Probably, Yajirobe.
I don't rememeber the exact circumstances of their first -and only- fight, Goku was pretty battered and hadn't eaten in a while I think. Anyway, he was quite impressive and he also has his sword. It wouldn't be a stomp either way. Not long after he climbed Karin's tower, right? so he was indeed very much capable. I like the guy so maybe I'm biased.
I had forgotten just how cool of a character Yajirobe was back then. If he had the drive, he could've gone on to be an even greater martial artist. I could see this one going either way, although I'd probably still say Tenshinhan in a close match. btw Goku at this point had eaten; that's what the fight was about in the first place, Goku had eaten Yajirobe's fish.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:47 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:54 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:51 am
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:24 am 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan vs King Piccolo saga Yajirobe

Goku remarked that he'd never met anyone who could withstand as much from him during their fight, and this was just after fighting Tenshinhan not long before. That said, I doubt Yajirobe could match Tenshinhan's techniques.
Probably, Yajirobe.
I don't rememeber the exact circumstances of their first -and only- fight, Goku was pretty battered and hadn't eaten in a while I think. Anyway, he was quite impressive and he also has his sword. It wouldn't be a stomp either way. Not long after he climbed Karin's tower, right? so he was indeed very much capable. I like the guy so maybe I'm biased.
I had forgotten just how cool of a character Yajirobe was back then. If he had the drive, he could've gone on to be an even greater martial artist. I could see this one going either way, although I'd probably still say Tenshinhan in a close match. btw Goku at this point had eaten; that's what the fight was about in the first place, Goku had eaten Yajirobe's fish.
Oh right, then hands down Yajiboy for me... the zenkai received after the TB and Tambourine's sneaky attack should be enough to beat Tenshinhan fair and square, and Yaji left quite an impression on that Goku.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:04 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:24 am 22nd Budokai Tenshinhan vs King Piccolo saga Yajirobe

Goku remarked that he'd never met anyone who could withstand as much from him during their fight, and this was just after fighting Tenshinhan not long before. That said, I doubt Yajirobe could match Tenshinhan's techniques.
Yajirobe is very tank but Tien is much more skilled and has powerful tecnhniques.
Tien wins after a tough battle.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:23 am

So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

This is gonna be a bit long so TL:DR at the bottom.

Now I reeeaally don't wanna get in to the whole Grade 4 debate and whether it's equal to Grade 1 or Grade 3 though I feel like it might be inevitable considering what I think working best in line with Grade 4 = Grade 1. (I'll leave a link for the things I sight at the bottom of the post.) See I always considered Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than (regular/non-buff) Perfect Cell, even at full power but recently I've seen a lot people seem to believe opposite. So why do I think Trunks is stronger? This is simply because Trunks is pretty much stated to be stronger than Cell by himself, Piccolo and even Cell by his own admission.

In the chapter "The Balance of Power" it's pretty much explained with Goku's words mirroring Trunks' battle that the problem is that While Trunks is stronger, he has no speed, which is why Trunks can't win. (In other words the writing/narrative is telling us Grade 3 (Trunks) is stronger than Cell until Cell assumes the same form. The confusion comes in when Trunks is awed by Grade 4 Goku's power up and Krillin states that he's surpassed all of them. I thought it was already forgone conclusion that Grade 3 wasn't be considered here because it was useless power and practically a renounced form. Everyone would know about it since Trunks exposited everything to Goku and Gohan when they came out of the Time Chamber in front of everyone. Isn't it most consistent if they're just that awed that Goku's that strong in just his SSJ (Grade 4) state rather than his power surpassing that of Grade 3 Trunks' (because he can now use the constantly output the full power of the form like he never could before due to achieving Grade 4)?

I say this because Grade 3 Trunks being weaker than Cell really doesn't make any sense in the full context of the story because 1, it would contradict the narrative for the message of "being stronger than the opponent means nothing if you can't hit them" if Trunks was both weaker AND slower making it no different than Vegeta's match in reality. 2, This is never depicted to ever be a lie or a suspicious statement considering the story (not just in DB's but in general) will normally make sure that it's either clearly or subtly spelled out for the audience rather than just breezing right passed it and not being mentioned or referenced by a character or narrator when a previous statement is later proven false.

3, It would already kind of be out of character for Cell to lie like this. Sure he's been deceptive to 18 in order to absorb her with the 17 illusion but other than that he's literally never lied and definitely never had a reason to either. Especially if he was already stronger than his opponent. 4, it's really inconsistent with the depictions in the story since Cell is actually shocked when Trunks goes Grade 3 (as we see in the story and is stated in El Manga Legendario 37 and the Trunks TV anime comic that gives us SSJ Grades 1-5) which he never reacts to like that again aside from Gohan who did surpass him; not even Goku. Daizenshuu 2 even states that the only reason Trunks lost was because of his lack of speed too.

So what I would like to know is if there are any clear(er)-cut statements in any guidebooks that say either Trunks was stronger than Cell or that Cell was stronger than Trunks? I know there's a Dragon Book guide series that came out with the Dragon Box sets. Does anyone have Volume 4 or 5 (or any volume) since I'm pretty sure those would cover Vegeta's Grade 2 (ep155), Trunks Grade 3 (ep162) and fight withing Cell (ep163-164) along with Grade 4 Goku and Gohan coming out (ep186) in Volume 4, then Goku going "Full Power" against Cell (ep177-179) and then quitting (ep180) in Volume 5 when it comes to the episode descriptions. That's mainly what I'm looking for since I don't know about any other obscure guides or V-Jump statements or anything that might've been missed in a main guide. Even If they don't say anything on it, it'd be at least good to confirm that. Grade 2, 3, 4, and SSJFP stuff might be related to it which is why I ask.


(These next two paragraphs can be skipped if you don't care about the Grade 4 power thing.)

I know it'll probably be a thing so I guess I'll address the whole Grade 4 power thing now. So there's still the whole "Grade 3 is 10x stronger" statement from EML which I honestly thing is (and is more consistent as) a hyperbolic statement though if we were to take that literally I'm pretty sure we'd have to take Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times" would contradict that. There's
DBS and the whole Cabba vs Vegeta fight that makes it seem like Grade > Grade 1 at face value but considering Vegeta was actually sweating and gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba it just meant Grade 1 ran out quickly. I also think that (Future Trunk's and mainly) Caulifla's usage of Grade 3 in Super already prove it Grade 4 to be weaker than Grade 3. There is that one guide that one Spanish guide that says Grade 4 = Grade 3 in terms of power too but it also states that SSJ is Oozaru power without transforming so it's a 10x boost too and depicts and describes LSSJ Broly as a Grade 3 so I don't think it's too reliable.

Plus it also states Goku first transformed into when fighting Cell, not leaving the time chamber. This is similar to D2 saying SSJ Full Power debuted in Volume 34 when that's when Goku fought Cell and not Volume 33 when Goku and Gohan came out of the time chamber. So clearly those definitions of "Super Saiyan Full Power" are something different than the concept of Grade 4 though D10 seems to retcon that. Plus if we consider it that by the time D7 came out Grade 4 wasn't acknowledged as another SSJ form just like Grades 2 and 3 then it can be assumed it wasn't any different than SSJ just like how the story depicted it since D7 doesn't really miss the tiniest detail, making Grade 4 part of SSJ and thus a 50x boost as repeated in Perfect Files and the Super Exciting Guide. Though as far as the original story goes, Goku only states that the goal of Grade 4 is to remove the strain of Grade 1 and when Trunks asks if there's so new (stronger) transformation Vegeta calls him an idiot for even thinking that and what the form is is later reiterated to be what Goku said it would be and what most of the guide books say about Grade 4 (and SSJFP when it refers to Grade 4 and not it's own thing).


List of Pictures in Order:

1. Trunks TV Anime Comic and Herms translation, EML 37
- Trunks esconde un poder que sorprender al propio Cell. Sin embargo, es una transformación imperfecta cuya falta de velocidad da al traste con su fuerza. Vegeta lo sabia y por eso le prohibió que se transformara.
"Trunks hides a power that will surprise Cell himself. However, it is an imperfect transformation whose lack of speed destroys its strength. Vegeta knew it and that's why he forbade it to be transformed."
https://imgur.com/gallery/q7bVovZ

2. Daizenshuu 2 adventure history Volume 33 Trunks lost to Cell because of speed deficiency
https://imgur.com/gallery/biEkoFM

3. Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times"
https://imgur.com/gallery/fpfBxxm

4. Vegeta being Cabba's equal and actually sweating then gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba
https://imgur.com/gallery/XECkFUy

5. Spanish Guide that says SSJ = 10x, Broly was a Grade 3, SSJFP = G3
- Todo el poder saiyan se multiplica por diez (sin tener que convertirse en Ohzaru)
"All saiyan power is multiplied by ten (without having to turn into Oozaru)."
- Cuando Broly se enfrentó a Gokuh por primera vez, también estaba en este estado de poder.
"When Broly first faced Goku, he was also in this state of power."
- Por fin llegmamos al último estadio antes del segundo nivel. Para poder aumentar el nivel de super saiyan y no menguar en ninguna habilidad, se necesita concentrar toda la energía. Para lograrlo hay que entrenar no sólo el cuerpo, sino también la mente. Así, obtenemos todo el poder del super saiyan san daikai sin deformaciones, consiguiendo más fuerza, agilidad, rapidez y reflejos. Este estado fue alcanzado por Goku cuando se enfrentó con Perfect Cell en su particular torneo.
"We finally reached the last stage before the second level. In order to increase the level of Super Saiyan and not decrease in any skill, it is necessary to concentrate all the energy. To achieve this you have to train not only the body, but also the mind. Thus, we obtain all the power of the Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, achieving more strength, agility, speed and reflexes. This state was reached by Goku when he faced Perfect Cell in his particular tournament."
https://imgur.com/gallery/uhj1s5c

6. Daizenshuu 2 SSJFP entry
https://imgur.com/gallery/bbYffgi

7. Daizenshuu 10 SSJFP retcon(? or context addition?)
https://imgur.com/gallery/GYGhXw8

8. Herms strength checker original dialogue
https://imgur.com/gallery/JqTD4VE


TL:DR: What do we think about G3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell. I think it makes the most sense (in the context of the story). Are there any direct/definitive guidebook statements on this (other than Daizenshuu 2)? What does the Dragon Book guide series (or any other guide) say anything on it?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BLAST!PROCESSOR » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:49 am

BLAST!PROCESSOR wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:23 am So what's the fandom's consensus on Grade 3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell?

This is gonna be a bit long so TL:DR at the bottom.

Now I reeeaally don't wanna get in to the whole Grade 4 debate and whether it's equal to Grade 1 or Grade 3 though I feel like it might be inevitable considering what I think working best in line with Grade 4 = Grade 1. (I'll leave a link for the things I sight at the bottom of the post.) See I always considered Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than (regular/non-buff) Perfect Cell, even at full power but recently I've seen a lot people seem to believe opposite. So why do I think Trunks is stronger? This is simply because Trunks is pretty much stated to be stronger than Cell by himself, Piccolo and even Cell by his own admission.

In the chapter "The Balance of Power" it's pretty much explained with Goku's words mirroring Trunks' battle that the problem is that While Trunks is stronger, he has no speed, which is why Trunks can't win. (In other words the writing/narrative is telling us Grade 3 (Trunks) is stronger than Cell until Cell assumes the same form. The confusion comes in when Trunks is awed by Grade 4 Goku's power up and Krillin states that he's surpassed all of them. I thought it was already forgone conclusion that Grade 3 wasn't be considered here because it was useless power and practically a renounced form. Everyone would know about it since Trunks exposited everything to Goku and Gohan when they came out of the Time Chamber in front of everyone. Isn't it most consistent if they're just that awed that Goku's that strong in just his SSJ (Grade 4) state rather than his power surpassing that of Grade 3 Trunks' (because he can now use the constantly output the full power of the form like he never could before due to achieving Grade 4)?

I say this because Grade 3 Trunks being weaker than Cell really doesn't make any sense in the full context of the story because 1, it would contradict the narrative for the message of "being stronger than the opponent means nothing if you can't hit them" if Trunks was both weaker AND slower making it no different than Vegeta's match in reality. 2, This is never depicted to ever be a lie or a suspicious statement considering the story (not just in DB's but in general) will normally make sure that it's either clearly or subtly spelled out for the audience rather than just breezing right passed it and not being mentioned or referenced by a character or narrator when a previous statement is later proven false.

3, It would already kind of be out of character for Cell to lie like this. Sure he's been deceptive to 18 in order to absorb her with the 17 illusion but other than that he's literally never lied and definitely never had a reason to either. Especially if he was already stronger than his opponent. 4, it's really inconsistent with the depictions in the story since Cell is actually shocked when Trunks goes Grade 3 (as we see in the story and is stated in El Manga Legendario 37 and the Trunks TV anime comic that gives us SSJ Grades 1-5) which he never reacts to like that again aside from Gohan who did surpass him; not even Goku. Daizenshuu 2 even states that the only reason Trunks lost was because of his lack of speed too.

So what I would like to know is if there are any clear(er)-cut statements in any guidebooks that say either Trunks was stronger than Cell or that Cell was stronger than Trunks? I know there's a Dragon Book guide series that came out with the Dragon Box sets. Does anyone have Volume 4 or 5 (or any volume) since I'm pretty sure those would cover Vegeta's Grade 2 (ep155), Trunks Grade 3 (ep162) and fight withing Cell (ep163-164) along with Grade 4 Goku and Gohan coming out (ep186) in Volume 4, then Goku going "Full Power" against Cell (ep177-179) and then quitting (ep180) in Volume 5 when it comes to the episode descriptions. That's mainly what I'm looking for since I don't know about any other obscure guides or V-Jump statements or anything that might've been missed in a main guide. Even If they don't say anything on it, it'd be at least good to confirm that. Grade 2, 3, 4, and SSJFP stuff might be related to it which is why I ask.


(These next two paragraphs can be skipped if you don't care about the Grade 4 power thing.)

I know it'll probably be a thing so I guess I'll address the whole Grade 4 power thing now. So there's still the whole "Grade 3 is 10x stronger" statement from EML which I honestly thing is (and is more consistent as) a hyperbolic statement though if we were to take that literally I'm pretty sure we'd have to take Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times" would contradict that. There's
DBS and the whole Cabba vs Vegeta fight that makes it seem like Grade > Grade 1 at face value but considering Vegeta was actually sweating and gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba it just meant Grade 1 ran out quickly. I also think that (Future Trunk's and mainly) Caulifla's usage of Grade 3 in Super already prove it Grade 4 to be weaker than Grade 3. There is that one guide that one Spanish guide that says Grade 4 = Grade 3 in terms of power too but it also states that SSJ is Oozaru power without transforming so it's a 10x boost too and depicts and describes LSSJ Broly as a Grade 3 so I don't think it's too reliable.

Plus it also states Goku first transformed into when fighting Cell, not leaving the time chamber. This is similar to D2 saying SSJ Full Power debuted in Volume 34 when that's when Goku fought Cell and not Volume 33 when Goku and Gohan came out of the time chamber. So clearly those definitions of "Super Saiyan Full Power" are something different than the concept of Grade 4 though D10 seems to retcon that. Plus if we consider it that by the time D7 came out Grade 4 wasn't acknowledged as another SSJ form just like Grades 2 and 3 then it can be assumed it wasn't any different than SSJ just like how the story depicted it since D7 doesn't really miss the tiniest detail, making Grade 4 part of SSJ and thus a 50x boost as repeated in Perfect Files and the Super Exciting Guide. Though as far as the original story goes, Goku only states that the goal of Grade 4 is to remove the strain of Grade 1 and when Trunks asks if there's so new (stronger) transformation Vegeta calls him an idiot for even thinking that and what the form is is later reiterated to be what Goku said it would be and what most of the guide books say about Grade 4 (and SSJFP when it refers to Grade 4 and not it's own thing).


List of Pictures in Order:

1. Trunks TV Anime Comic and Herms translation, EML 37
- Trunks esconde un poder que sorprender al propio Cell. Sin embargo, es una transformación imperfecta cuya falta de velocidad da al traste con su fuerza. Vegeta lo sabia y por eso le prohibió que se transformara.
"Trunks hides a power that will surprise Cell himself. However, it is an imperfect transformation whose lack of speed destroys its strength. Vegeta knew it and that's why he forbade it to be transformed."
https://imgur.com/gallery/q7bVovZ

2. Daizenshuu 2 adventure history Volume 33 Trunks lost to Cell because of speed deficiency
https://imgur.com/gallery/biEkoFM

3. Zamasu saying SSJ2 Goku increasing his power by "tens of times"
https://imgur.com/gallery/fpfBxxm

4. Vegeta being Cabba's equal and actually sweating then gradually putting less effort into fighting Cabba
https://imgur.com/gallery/XECkFUy

5. Spanish Guide that says SSJ = 10x, Broly was a Grade 3, SSJFP = G3
- Todo el poder saiyan se multiplica por diez (sin tener que convertirse en Ohzaru)
"All saiyan power is multiplied by ten (without having to turn into Oozaru)."
- Cuando Broly se enfrentó a Gokuh por primera vez, también estaba en este estado de poder.
"When Broly first faced Goku, he was also in this state of power."
- Por fin llegmamos al último estadio antes del segundo nivel. Para poder aumentar el nivel de super saiyan y no menguar en ninguna habilidad, se necesita concentrar toda la energía. Para lograrlo hay que entrenar no sólo el cuerpo, sino también la mente. Así, obtenemos todo el poder del super saiyan san daikai sin deformaciones, consiguiendo más fuerza, agilidad, rapidez y reflejos. Este estado fue alcanzado por Goku cuando se enfrentó con Perfect Cell en su particular torneo.
"We finally reached the last stage before the second level. In order to increase the level of Super Saiyan and not decrease in any skill, it is necessary to concentrate all the energy. To achieve this you have to train not only the body, but also the mind. Thus, we obtain all the power of the Super Saiyan Grade 3 without deformations, achieving more strength, agility, speed and reflexes. This state was reached by Goku when he faced Perfect Cell in his particular tournament."
https://imgur.com/gallery/uhj1s5c

6. Daizenshuu 2 SSJFP entry
https://imgur.com/gallery/bbYffgi

7. Daizenshuu 10 SSJFP retcon(? or context addition?)
https://imgur.com/gallery/GYGhXw8

8. Herms strength checker original dialogue
https://imgur.com/gallery/JqTD4VE


TL:DR: What do we think about G3 Trunks being stronger than Perfect Cell. I think it makes the most sense (in the context of the story). Are there any direct/definitive guidebook statements on this (other than Daizenshuu 2)? What does the Dragon Book guide series (or any other guide) say anything on it?
Quick addition: It makes no sense for Cell's "stronger than me" statement to apply to only his suppressed version because that's not neither how words, context or logic works at all. If he meant that, he either would've said that or alluded to it. No body in Dragon Ball has ever said somebody was stronger than them and had that not actually be true unless they had another transformation (a.k.a. literally another state of being in which their power has a new ceiling). Frieza doesn't say that Piccolo's stronger than him when Piccolo starts winning against Frieza. Frieza says that Piccolo's been underestimating him (because he was holding back). It's juts not consistent for Dragon Ball or in terms for normal speech for a statement to be made like that. Plus, Cell never really does that nor did he ever have a reason to each time he had the opportunity. Like, if I say "that person is faster than me" while I'm walking, does that mean they're only faster than me when I'm walking because I said it while I was walking? No. Obviously not. That's just logic.

So again, I think it makes more sense if every at the Cell Games was just shocked because Grade 4 Goku was that strong but just as a SSJ and the closest to Cell's full power at the time and because Grade 3 wasn't taken into consideration being ruled out as a renounced and inefficient form with a lot more power that can't be used. Just look at the consistency of Cell's reactions. Completely unphased by Grade 4 Goku's full power, a little weary of Grade 4 Gohan's power, surprised by Grade 3 Trunks' power upon transforming (before further powering up) and then shocked and trembling at SSJ2 Gohan's power. Not to mention again the multiple guidebooks stating the reaction of Cell to Trunks being genuine and enough to surprised/startled. Contextually and logically it makes more sense for Grade 3 Trunks to be stronger than Cell unless you cherry-pick the context (with you do it seriously or just for the fun of another interpretation of the story in a "death of the author" sort of way.

9. Cell's power reactions: Grade 4 Goku < Grade 4 Gohan < Perfect Cell < Grade 3 Trunks < SSJ2 Gohan
https://imgur.com/gallery/T4s28Lr

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TobyS
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:14 am

Strongest person Moro arc Yamhan can beat? Assuming Yamcha never stopped training after Cell or at least is already training again by “Yo son Goku”.
Normally.
With kikoho
With kaioken x20
With kkx20 and kikoho assuming shin kikoho isn't doing kaioken shit already.

Put this in what if but also vs.

What if Gohan never stopped training after Buu. And trained with Piccolo giving piccolo a slight boost.

So going into RoF kuririn is confident he or Buu (could be him AND Buu, but given the gap between the two I think it's either or) are enough to beat Freeza (they don't know he's in his first form.)

So give that Buu can take first form Freeza, and Gohan is muuuch stronger than Buu.

What form does Freeza needs.

Going by DBS manga standards and ignoring base Goku Vs Freeza in Rof.

What happens if they use Bulmas shrinking watches and him and Piccolo go to the future trunks time?

Basically fights from then on.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

jamiljamtheman
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by jamiljamtheman » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:55 pm

I was browsing the dragon ball subreddit, and this is the first time I’ve heard the concept of “DBS Anime Goku and Vegeta are stronger than DBS Manga Goku and Vegeta” (only while the stories are parallel, like ToP vs ToP).

Where does this come from? I know the anime has a few more forms and asspulls (for lack of a better term), but I don’t see what would make, say, anime ToP Goku significantly more powerful than his manga counterpart?

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