Piccolo was full of confidence when he was saying these words (he even has a cocky smile in the manga), since he is kicking the ass of someone that was supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyans. Piccolo is known for coming in quick conclusions when his feeling get in the way. Remember when he thought that Cell killed Gohan, even though Gohan barely got any damage? Or when he thought that base Gotenks could beat Boo, even though Gotenks was nowhere near that level?SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:What I'm saying is, if Piccolo was nowhere near SSJ Trunks, he would've instantly came to the conclusion that the Androids were weaker than expected, but instead, he wonders if he had just became too strong.
The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
You're missing the key words:
It would make zero sense for Piccolo to ponder the possibility of 20 being stronger than Trunks if he was weaker than himself, who you're claiming is nowhere close to Trunks. That'd pretty much be turning Piccolo into an idiot.
Piccolo doesn't 100% doubt the Androids being stronger than Trunks.Piccolo wrote:"Does that mean you guys weren't as strong as you guys were supposed to be? Or maybe... ...we just became too strong for you?"
It would make zero sense for Piccolo to ponder the possibility of 20 being stronger than Trunks if he was weaker than himself, who you're claiming is nowhere close to Trunks. That'd pretty much be turning Piccolo into an idiot.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I didn't miss anything, I'm fully aware of what Piccolo is saying.
I'm not saying that Piccolo is stupid, but he can be an idiot sometimes, in the sense that he can come to quick conclusions without giving them much thought. Like I said, he has been proven to be far from correct before when his emotions (be it fear or overconfidence) get in his way. He was afraid for Gohan fighting Cell, and he thought that Cell killed Gohan with a blow, even though he should know that Gohan isn't that much weaker than Cell, and he thought that base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) may have a chance against Evil Boo, even though he was sure that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) didn't stand a chance against him.
That could be the same case here as well, he thinks he surpassed the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans, even though he is weaker than the Super Saiyan that couldn't beat them.
I'm not saying that Piccolo is stupid, but he can be an idiot sometimes, in the sense that he can come to quick conclusions without giving them much thought. Like I said, he has been proven to be far from correct before when his emotions (be it fear or overconfidence) get in his way. He was afraid for Gohan fighting Cell, and he thought that Cell killed Gohan with a blow, even though he should know that Gohan isn't that much weaker than Cell, and he thought that base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) may have a chance against Evil Boo, even though he was sure that SS Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) didn't stand a chance against him.
That could be the same case here as well, he thinks he surpassed the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans, even though he is weaker than the Super Saiyan that couldn't beat them.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Except in both of those cases, Piccolo was contradicted. Nothing contradicted Piccolo saying he became too strong, and we're given no reason to doubt what he says.
It would be completely pointless for the author to have this line from Piccolo to have it be doubted. If we were supposed to not believe it, it would've been contradicted.
Also, a character being wrong once or twice in the future can't be used to discredit a statement they made before hand, unless that statement is contradicting what a character has said before.
It would be completely pointless for the author to have this line from Piccolo to have it be doubted. If we were supposed to not believe it, it would've been contradicted.
Also, a character being wrong once or twice in the future can't be used to discredit a statement they made before hand, unless that statement is contradicting what a character has said before.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
It's extraordinarily likely that the wording is purposely vague, because Toriyama was about to reveal that 19 and 20 were NOT the spoken-of Androids, and weaker than the ones that could beat Trunks. Trying to insist that it HAS to mean one thing or another is pointless. Anyone can work out the 19/20-Piccolo-Trunks power relationship in a variety of valid ways.
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FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised [thread]
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Piccolo wondered: Are these weaker than we thought, or am I just got stronger than them? The answer turned out to be "these are weaker than we thought". There is literally nothing that places Piccolo anywhere close the Super Saiyans. His assumption that he surpassed the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans was solely based on the belief that #19 & #20 were the ones that killed Super Saiyans, but it was proven to be false, and it was proven that the actual Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans (#17 & #18) were much stronger than #19 & #20.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Yes they did turn out weaker than expected, but Piccolo didn't know that upon making his comment. There is nothing shown to suggest Piccolo was just overestimating himself, there's only Piccolo wondering if he became too strong, which as I said would be completely asinine if he was actually much weaker than Trunks.
There is nothing placing Piccolo as low as you say he is, all there is is Piccolo wondering if he had just became too strong instead of the Androids being weaker than expected, meaning in Piccolo's mind: Piccolo > Androids > Trunks.
There is nothing suggesting that chain to be wrong, you're only twisting his statement trying to he say Piccolo didn't put much thought into it and was being an idiot here, when that's not suggested at all. Piccolo's comments/reactions in the future being wrong doesn't now mean that this one was wrong.
There is nothing placing Piccolo as low as you say he is, all there is is Piccolo wondering if he had just became too strong instead of the Androids being weaker than expected, meaning in Piccolo's mind: Piccolo > Androids > Trunks.
There is nothing suggesting that chain to be wrong, you're only twisting his statement trying to he say Piccolo didn't put much thought into it and was being an idiot here, when that's not suggested at all. Piccolo's comments/reactions in the future being wrong doesn't now mean that this one was wrong.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
But this is contradicted, since SS Trunks is stronger than Piccolo. If Piccolo really was stronger than SS Trunks, he would have known it before his fight with the Artificial Humans.There is nothing placing Piccolo as low as you say he is, all there is is Piccolo wondering if he had just became too strong instead of the Androids being weaker than expected, meaning in Piccolo's mind: Piccolo > Androids > Trunks.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Trunks from the Android arc was stronger than Piccolo, not from the Mecha Freeza arc. Who said Piccolo didn't know he was stronger than Mecha arc Trunks? I don't see why Piccolo would want to even take on Android 20 if he was actually far weaker than Trunks.
It literally doesn't add up. Piccolo wonders if the Androids aren't actually weaker than expected and he became too strong.
It sounds completely ridiculous to just say "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize how weak he is compared to Trunks"
It literally doesn't add up. Piccolo wonders if the Androids aren't actually weaker than expected and he became too strong.
It sounds completely ridiculous to just say "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize how weak he is compared to Trunks"
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
But that's impossible, because Trunks' power hasn't changed much according to Kami.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Trunks from the Android arc was stronger than Piccolo, not from the Mecha Freeza arc.
He has seen how they fight, so he should have an idea of their power.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I don't see why Piccolo would want to even take on Android 20 if he was actually far weaker than Trunks.
No, he wonders if the Androids aren't actually weaker than expected or if he became too strong.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:It literally doesn't add up. Piccolo wonders if the Androids aren't actually weaker than expected and he became too strong.
Just like "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize that Gohan wasn't dead", or "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize how weak base Gotenks is compared to Boo"SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:It sounds completely ridiculous to just say "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize how weak he is compared to SSJ Trunks"
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Super Saiyan Turlast x4
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Kami's just acknowledging what Trunks did back then. It doesn't mean his power didn't change. Also, Tien says Goku isn't much different than Trunks or Vegeta, meaning they're pretty much in the same league.
I have Piccolo above Super Saiyan Goku on namek, but weaker than all of the Super Saiyans in the Android saga.
I have Piccolo above Super Saiyan Goku on namek, but weaker than all of the Super Saiyans in the Android saga.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
When does Kami say he hasn't changed much? I doubt a year of taking on the Androids and training leaves Trunks' power the same.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But that's impossible, because Trunks' power hasn't changed much according to Kami.
EDIT: Pretty much what Super Saiyan Turlast x4 said
He saw 19 fight (and make Vegeta bleed), not 20.He has seen how they fight, so he should have an idea of their power.
Yeah, and for him to even entertain the idea for him to actually have gotten too strong, he would have to be stronger than Trunks or be a moron.No, he wonders if the Androids aren't actually weaker than expected or if he became too strong.
Completely different situations.Just like "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize that Gohan wasn't dead", or "Piccolo wasn't actually putting thought into it and just being an idiot who forgot how to sense ki and realize how weak base Gotenks is compared to Boo"
1. Gohan wasn't fighting, and it's shown that when fighters aren't in action their ki is hard to sense. Like Goku not realizing how strong Vegeta is until Vegeta starts "charing(?)" up. (it's not a power up since Vegeta said he can't suppress, as he stated on Namek. Kaboom says it's more like "flexing"), or Trunks not realizing how strong Vegeta was until he was fighting 18.
2. With Gotenks, Piccolo was facing a desperate, life-or-death situation, whereas here with Gero, he was under no stress or pressure. (You could also argue that it's gag)
And as I repeatedly say, just because it happens later on, it doesn't apply to every situation before that.
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Super Saiyan Turlast x4
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
All you have to do is look at Piccolo's battle with #20 in comparison to Goku's battle with #19.
Goku wasn't at his best, but he still had enough power to defeat #19. He had to rush and put out full-effort to do it, though. Piccolo defeats a more powerful #20 much easier than Goku almost does a weaker #19. I don't see why Piccolo would be weaker than Freeza at this point.
Goku wasn't at his best, but he still had enough power to defeat #19. He had to rush and put out full-effort to do it, though. Piccolo defeats a more powerful #20 much easier than Goku almost does a weaker #19. I don't see why Piccolo would be weaker than Freeza at this point.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Because Goku was so weakened from the heart virus that he was having trouble keeping up with a flying speed the humans were easily and effortlessly maintaining?
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
That's stamina not power. He wasn't failing to keep up he was just out of breath. There's no reason for Goku to be weaker than his Yardrat self by this point based on Tenshinhan's reactions.
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Super Saiyan Turlast x4
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Goku was in the process of beating #19 dry. That means he still had enough power to win. The flight there doesn't change that. The only ones who noticed he wasn't at full-power were the guys (Piccolo and Gohan) who knew his full-power. Also, Goku wasn't stated to have a drastic decrease until after he used the Kamehameha.
I just want to know why Piccolo would be weaker than Freeza and still consider the possibility that he's gotten too strong. From a storytelling standpoint, it just doesn't make sense. Piccolo was never shown to be stupid in understanding his own power. Tien even hates how Vegeta and Piccolo have "powered-up extraordinarily" from their training. Piccolo is right behind the Android saga Super Saiyans. He's easily above Freeza.
I just want to know why Piccolo would be weaker than Freeza and still consider the possibility that he's gotten too strong. From a storytelling standpoint, it just doesn't make sense. Piccolo was never shown to be stupid in understanding his own power. Tien even hates how Vegeta and Piccolo have "powered-up extraordinarily" from their training. Piccolo is right behind the Android saga Super Saiyans. He's easily above Freeza.
Last edited by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 on Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: The All-Purpose Versus Thread
Also, sick SSJ Goku has to at least be stronger than SSJ Trunks from the Mecha Freeza saga, otherwise they would immediately know the Androids aren't the ones Trunks told them about.
Last edited by SSJ2FutureGohan on Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
I have Piccolo at 60~70 millions range. Maybe even Gohan alone can beat him.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Android arc Piccolo (pre-merge) vs. Mecha arc SSJ Trunks, 2 arm SSJ Future Gohan, and 100% Freeza
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Lord Beerus
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Piccolo gets stomped by SSJ Future Gohan and SSJ Trunks and Freeza piss on his ashes.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Android arc Piccolo (pre-merge) vs. Mecha arc SSJ Trunks, 2 arm SSJ Future Gohan, and 100% Freeza
Spoiler:
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread
Kami was talking about how Trunks' current power compares to Vegeta & the Artificial Humans in that statement. If Trunks had gotten significantly stronger than back then, then Kami would have said something like "Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father, and has now grown even stronger than he was back then…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…". Yet, he is treating Trunks as being at the same level as he was 3 years (6 months for Trunks) before.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Kami's just acknowledging what Trunks did back then. It doesn't mean his power didn't change.
They are both at around the same level. And #19 managed to make Vegeta bleed because Vegeta allowed him to, because he wanted to see his power. He couldn't do any real damage to him, and not to mention that #19 had absorbed power from SS Goku at that point.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:He saw 19 fight (and make Vegeta bleed), not 20.
But it is proven that he is now stronger than Trunks.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Yeah, and for him to even entertain the idea for him to actually have gotten too strong, he would have to be stronger than Trunks or be a moron.
With Gero, he was full of confidence, and like "shit, I'm fucking the robot that killed Super Saiyans, I'm awesome!". It's just like when Kuririn saw Goku beating the Ginyu Tokusentai and was like "wow, you must be stronger than Freeza!" even though he knows Freeza's power, and should know that he is weaker than Freeza.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Completely different situations.
1. Gohan wasn't fighting, and it's shown that when fighters aren't in action their ki is hard to sense. Like Goku not realizing how strong Vegeta is until Vegeta starts "charing(?)" up. (it's not a power up since Vegeta said he can't suppress, as he stated on Namek. Kaboom says it's more like "flexing"), or Trunks not realizing how strong Vegeta was until he was fighting 18.
2. With Gotenks, Piccolo was facing a desperate, life-or-death situation, whereas here with Gero, he was under no stress or pressure. (You could also argue that it's gag)
Sick Goku isn't a good comparison, because Goku didn't have just a lower battle power, he whole body was shit. It's not like a suppressed or weaker fighter.Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:All you have to do is look at Piccolo's battle with #20 in comparison to Goku's battle with #19.
Goku wasn't at his best, but he still had enough power to defeat #19. He had to rush and put out full-effort to do it, though. Piccolo defeats a more powerful #20 much easier than Goku almost does a weaker #19. I don't see why Piccolo would be weaker than Freeza at this point.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.