The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ganma 3 (hypothetical fusion of the androids) vs LSSJ Broly

That’s a good one. I tend to argue fusion is based on the fusers’ strongest forms, but Gogeta wasn’t that much better than SSJB Goku and Vegeta. Gamma 1 and 2 are SSJB level, but their fusion is absolutely not Base Gogeta level. It should be Gogeta Blue level, and destroy Broly.

Gas vs. The Pride Troopers

He fights all them at once. Can they win?

Gas. Merus doesn’t have his Angel powers anymore, and Gas was almost as strong as the ever feared 1st form Freeza even before the wish.

Base Vegito (Granolah arc) vs SSB Kaioken x20 Goku (ToP arc)

SSG Goku (Buu Saga) vs Great Ape Baby

Beast Gohan (Cell Games) vs Golden Freeza (ToP arc)

Base Vegetto, easily. From what we’ve seen should give a hypothetical current KKx20 Goku a good fight, and if he ever feels threatened he can just use Kaio-Ken too.

I don’t think Goku is that much stronger going into BoGs, so this is just a somewhat weaker SSJG Goku destroying Baby.

Freeza, maybe even in his normal form. Gohan would be Super Vegetto level from the Boo Saga I think, maybe SSJ2 Vegetto.

[TobyS]

Put it in the what if but yeah GT orange piccolo at the time baby thinks he managed to kill him and goten but fucked it up outta arrogance presumably he gets the earth DBs right after the event and baby doesn't know to stop him till it's too late.

[FeatsofPower]

Kaioshin vs Pui Pui


Kaioshin is much weaker than people think. He is weaker than Piccolo as well as the Base Saiyans.

[Lionel]

Kaioshin vs Pui Pui


Kaioshin is much weaker than people think. He is weaker than Piccolo as well as the Base Saiyans.

Shin is a paranoid amateur with a traumatised psyche brought on by Majin Buu. I wouldn't put it past him to suffer from some type of vexiphobia when it comes to Majins. Mind you his cautiousness wasn't limited entirely to himself as Gohan at one point suggested they work together to defeat Yakon. I believe he's weaker than the Super Saiyans but not the untransformed Saiyans. Now with his telekinetic powers you could make the argument that he's up to SSJ2 standard strictly in that respect.

To answer your question I think Shin would easily win the match. You could make it Yakon and I believe the outcome is the same. it isn't until you get to Dabura that I believe he starts to flounder.

[FeatsofPower]

Let's start from the top. Kaioshin runs into the Saiyans at the tournament and claims inferiority to them immediately.

Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Then Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all seem to agree that Pui Pui appears to be too much for even the group of Saiyans, let alone Kaioshin, a far inferior fighter to the expected Saiyans. Kaioshin is a complete afterthought, not expected to do anything in battle to help the Saiyans.

Pui Pui >> Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

After Pui Pui's defeat, Kaioshin, Babidi, and Dabura are all in complete shock, these Saiyans are no joke. Now remember, nothing ever changes for their expectations of Kaioshin, this is a familiar foe, one Babidi knows all too well.

So next we get this chain.


Expected Saiyans >> Pui Pui >> Previously Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Babidi acknowledges how effortlessly Vegeta dispatched of Pui Pui and sends out Yakon, a being considered overkill.

Yakon >> Expected Saiyans >> Pui Pui >> Previously Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin


The Base Saiyans end up being a match for Yakon. But notice how nothing ever changes for Kaioshin. Kaioshin was and always will be fodder to Babidi and his men, without Yakon, and without Dabura.

[Lionel]

Let's start from the top. Kaioshin runs into the Saiyans at the tournament and claims inferiority to them immediately.

Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Then Babidi, Dabura, and Kaioshin all seem to agree that Pui Pui appears to be too much for even the group of Saiyans, let alone Kaioshin, a far inferior fighter to the expected Saiyans. Kaioshin is a complete afterthought, not expected to do anything in battle to help the Saiyans.

Pui Pui >> Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

After Pui Pui's defeat, Kaioshin, Babidi, and Dabura are all in complete shock, these Saiyans are no joke. Now remember, nothing ever changes for their expectations of Kaioshin, this is a familiar foe, one Babidi knows all too well.

So next we get this chain.


Expected Saiyans >> Pui Pui >> Previously Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Babidi acknowledges how effortlessly Vegeta dispatched of Pui Pui and sends out Yakon, a being considered overkill.

Yakon >> Expected Saiyans >> Pui Pui >> Previously Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin


The Base Saiyans end up being a match for Yakon. But notice how nothing ever changes for Kaioshin. Kaioshin was and always will be fodder to Babidi and his men, without Yakon, and without Dabura.

Shin's power was dismissed from the get go due to its unusability according to Dabura. The reasons for his inclusion within the group that was to be kept alive were personal in nature to Babidi; he wanted to be the one to kill Kaioshin.

The rationale of Babidi and Dabura seems suspect at various points. They believe that Pui-Pui is capable of handling three opponents simultaneously with reserves of power that will, in their minds, be enough to supply half of Buu's needed stores for his release. Considering how they must have had intimate familiarity with its operability and its carrying capacity for ki I can't imagine those two not having some idea of the amount of power required to release Buu; power which entailed draining almost completely a Super Saiyan 2 just to furnish it with half of its needed amounts. But somehow Pui-Pui can conceivably handle these three men with collective strength equivalent to an SSJ2's all on his own?

Goku and the others didn't appear capable of sensing the ki of the magically entrapped fighters Babidi had. Shin's statements at the beginning in regards to Pui Pui were concerned with reputation moreso than direct tangible interaction with Babidi's men. Notice how even Goku and Gohan were initially put off by the speed and abilities of Yakon. The Saiyans proved to be too much for Pui Pui and Yakon but that had more to do with the fortuity of their fighting careers in general putting them far ahead instead of any foresight on their part. Shin didn't have that luxury because he apparently doesn't train much.

[ZombieVito]

Kaioshin vs Pui Pui


Kaioshin is much weaker than people think. He is weaker than Piccolo as well as the Base Saiyans.

Shin blinks and Pui Pui disintegrates.

[FeatsofPower]

Shin's power was dismissed from the get go due to its unusability according to Dabura. The reasons for his inclusion within the group that was to be kept alive were personal in nature to Babidi; he wanted to be the one to kill Kaioshin.

Yes, exactly. Babidi personally tells Dabura to lay off Shin so he can handle him, Pui Pui no doubt heard this command.

Think about how your interpretation doesn't make sense. Babidi is encouraged that Kaioshin has entered the fray, Kaioshin does not make Babidi worried about Pui Pui completing his task. He expects Pui Pui to defeat the Saiyans, who Kaioshin has acknowledged as his superiors, in spite of Kaioshin's resistance.

From your interpretation, all of Babidi's plans would be foiled if Kaioshin decided to pitch in. As we see, Kaioshin intends to go help out, but at the behest of the Saiyans does not.

The narrative is clear, Pui Pui vs the Saiyans goes unaffected by Kaioshin's help. Kaioshin is a total nothing, he cannot affect the battle at all.

[Thani]

Shin's power was dismissed from the get go due to its unusability according to Dabura. The reasons for his inclusion within the group that was to be kept alive were personal in nature to Babidi; he wanted to be the one to kill Kaioshin.

Yes, exactly. Babidi personally tells Dabura to lay off Shin so he can handle him, Pui Pui no doubt heard this command.

Think about how your interpretation doesn't make sense. Babidi is encouraged that Kaioshin has entered the fray, Kaioshin does not make Babidi worried about Pui Pui completing his task. He expects Pui Pui to defeat the Saiyans, who Kaioshin has acknowledged as his superiors, in spite of Kaioshin's resistance.

From your interpretation, all of Babidi's plans would be foiled if Kaioshin decided to pitch in. As we see, Kaioshin intends to go help out, but at the behest of the Saiyans does not.

The narrative is clear, Pui Pui vs the Saiyans goes unaffected by Kaioshin's help. Kaioshin is a total nothing, he cannot affect the battle at all.

Consider this though.

Shin saw, felt and contained the power of Gohan's SS2 for a little while. He then suggests they all fight Pui-Pui together. And then freaks out about Yakon. Same with Dabura.

So, in Shin's mind, wouldn't Pui-Pui be as strong, if not stronger, than Gohan's SS2? Which ended up not being the case at all, but you see where I'm going with this. Shin was flat out wrong about the strength of Babidi's men, save only for Dabura.

In fact, Shin containing Gohan and pushing Buu's head back a little are actually impressive feats of power for Shin.

[Lionel]

Shin's power was dismissed from the get go due to its unusability according to Dabura. The reasons for his inclusion within the group that was to be kept alive were personal in nature to Babidi; he wanted to be the one to kill Kaioshin.

Yes, exactly. Babidi personally tells Dabura to lay off Shin so he can handle him, Pui Pui no doubt heard this command.

Think about how your interpretation doesn't make sense. Babidi is encouraged that Kaioshin has entered the fray, Kaioshin does not make Babidi worried about Pui Pui completing his task. He expects Pui Pui to defeat the Saiyans, who Kaioshin has acknowledged as his superiors, in spite of Kaioshin's resistance.

From your interpretation, all of Babidi's plans would be foiled if Kaioshin decided to pitch in. As we see, Kaioshin intends to go help out, but at the behest of the Saiyans does not.

The narrative is clear, Pui Pui vs the Saiyans goes unaffected by Kaioshin's help. Kaioshin is a total nothing, he cannot affect the battle at all.

From what we've seen of Shin which Thani acknowledged in his post concerning the Kaioshin's telekinetic powers he should have been regarded as a greater concern than how he was portrayed. Come to think of it his original portrayal at the tournament was less degrading than what we saw in Babidi's ship. The Kiaigan he used destroyed a projectile that left SSJ Gohan in a critical state. How is that not a utilisable technique that would put him over Babidi's weaker subordinates?

The context of what Shin should be aware of regarding Freeza when he read Vegeta's mind coupled with BOG's statement of the base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza would implicitly put him above them anyway. Yes Vegeta would have sensed Freeza at around his maximum strength in the brief window when he was resurrected by Porunga and before he was teleported to Earth.

[Koitsukai]

Shin destroys Pui Pui even easier than Vegeta did.
Shin can oneshot Freeza, and by BoG we know Goku cannot even beat Freeza in base, so there's no way Shin struggles where base Vegeta didn't. I don't think Shin is a benchmark of strenght, but Pui Pui is fodder.

There's a lot of inconsistencies during that part of the arc, Shin is all over the place, he doesn't make sense. Pui Pui and Yakon are fodder, yet he is scared like if they were Beerus and Champa, even though he subdued SS2 Gohan before with his magic, so he knows the saiyans are fucking strong.
The only explanation I can come up with is that for some reason, Shin wasn't able to read their PL (maybe the Majin symbol or something), so he had no idea who they were against and thought the Majin unlock was greater than what it really was. The guys, however, could read their ki with no problems.

[Goku9001]

Shin doesn't even recall Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 until after Goku defeated Yakon so it was never a factor in how he viewed the Saiyans prior. Otherwise, he would have already known that the Saiyans had far surpassed his level beforehand. I don't see the issue with Kaioshin being weaker than both Pui Pui and Yakon. The Daizenshuu clearly makes the case that Kaioshin was afraid of Yakon and he watched him battle Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I don't see the issue with Kaioshin being weaker than both Pui Pui and Yakon. The Daizenshuu clearly makes the case that Kaioshin was afraid of Yakon and he watched him battle Goku.

Really? Shin is stronger than Piccolo who is multiple times stronger than Freeza who in turn is stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Shin flat out can't be weaker than Pui Pui and Yakon. Not even close.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Put it in the what if but yeah GT orange piccolo at the time baby thinks he managed to kill him and goten but fucked it up outta arrogance presumably he gets the earth DBs right after the event and baby doesn't know to stop him till it's too late.

Piccolo went to HFIL so he could keep fighting villains after dying, so I think he’s stronger than General Rildo here. Orange is somewhere above Ultimate but weaker than fusion, which SSJ4 is comparable to in terms of boost. Sounds more or less where SBV2 was before fusion. I actually like the idea of them being equals, I can see Gogeta Blue punking Orange Piccolo like SSJ4 Goku punked Baby. Ultimate Piccolo might SBV1. He can’t do anything against Golden Oozaru Baby though, but he might repeat the events of Super Hero and go giant to buy time for Goku (or maybe a GT Beast Gohan?) to blast Baby.

Kaioshin vs Pui Pui


Kaioshin is much weaker than people think. He is weaker than Piccolo as well as the Base Saiyans.

Sorry man but I’m on Kaioshin’s side now. Pui Pui isn’t doing the stuff Shin did against Boo. Same with Yakon.

[FeatsofPower]

If Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui and Yakon, the entire Babidi ship segment makes absolutely zero sense. The only way the ship segment makes sense is if Kaioshin is only as strong as he's suggested to be. Kaioshin has strong psychic attacks, that allow him to do some amazing stuff, but that's really all.

And perhaps Majin Buu held back on him due to him being a Kaisohin. No doubt Dai Kaioshin's influence could have been a factor there.



Base Gotenks (BoG) vs Majin Boo (BoG)

[Goku9001]

I don't see the issue with Kaioshin being weaker than both Pui Pui and Yakon. The Daizenshuu clearly makes the case that Kaioshin was afraid of Yakon and he watched him battle Goku.

Really? Shin is stronger than Piccolo who is multiple times stronger than Freeza who in turn is stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.

Shin flat out can't be weaker than Pui Pui and Yakon. Not even close.

I think Pui Pui is debatable but I don't really think Yakon is that debatable considering the same guide states that Kaioshin is both scared of Yakon and that he is stronger than Piccolo. It should have been clear based on Yakon's movements that Yakon wasn't up to snuff but that's not the implication you would get from Kaioshin's reaction. Just by watching Goku clear Yakon with ease made it clear to Kaioshin that the Saiyans were much stronger than him.

It wasn't apparent with Pui Pui but trouncing Yakon really sparked a lightbulb for Kaioshin. Had the Daizenshuu suggested that Yakon was inferior to Kaioshin, I would reconsider but the fact that both the manga and Daizenshuu clarify that Kaioshin was terrified of Yakon and Yakon's swift defeat gave Kaioshin an epiphany on the Saiyan's power really cements it I feel.

Sorry man but I’m on Kaioshin’s side now. Pui Pui isn’t doing the stuff Shin did against Boo. Same with Yakon.

Is this because of Beerus' statement made about Base Goku in the Battle of Gods?

[FinalPilaf]

Cell Max vs Jiren (full power)

Potential Unleashed Piccolo (not Orange) vs GoD Toppo

Beast Gohan vs Beerus

[TobyS]

There's 0 chance Shin is weaker than Pui Pui and Yakon.

He is stronger then piccolo. Working backwards from BoG we know Goku isn't stronger then Freeza.

Piccolo is far stronger then Freeza.

Shin is stronger than Piccolo.

Even if you ignore bog because it comes later you can prove this from the other direction.

Piccolo was faaar stronger then the base Saiyans in the cell games.
SS forms are a multiplier.
SS2 Goku and vegeta are only a little bit above Cell games Gohan. Piccolo doesn't stop training, even if his gains shrunk here he's at least retaining the base Saiyan lead, especially when vegeta said he'd never fight again for at least a while after Goku dies.
And shin is stronger than Freeza and piccolo.

I don't think they can sense the majins ki, at least not accurately. Shin is operating of of their reputation, PTSD, a desire to save stamina, and not trusting babidi to switch stuff up mid fight or anything he just wants this shit done.

Dabra can sense the Saiyans are stronger but they clearly aren't in base but this is while they are already supressed to 0 hiding.

Clearly his ability to gauge isn't accurate as he isn't sensing super Saiyan 2/3 and pissing his pants. Kuririn of all people could tell Trunks and Cell were hiding power. It's all over the place as the plot dictates. They can't use shins energy and they want to kill him straight up.

Goku goes on to put up a decent fight against Yakon with his bloody eyes closed.

I suspect a lot of the people who wank the buu arc base Saiyans are the same that say the kids are stronger than Piccolo and 18 and Gohan pre training.

The narrow gap between the base kids and adult bases, slotting in Piccolo ( as buu takes on his form when gotenks ends) and Shin is ridiculous.

[Berserker1921]

Cell Max vs Jiren (full power)

Potential Unleashed Piccolo (not Orange) vs GoD Toppo

Beast Gohan vs Beerus

1. Jiren. While, cell max is probably stronger than him. He is a stupid creature who was able to get hurt by lesser warriors. Jiren, is a strong and skillful warrior. I am sure he could pick up on cell’s weakness sooner or later and go for the kill.

2. God Toppo has the edge. I doubt ultimate piccolo is blue or blue+ tier, he would need to be orange to be as strong or stronger than toppo.

3. Beerus. He is a moving goal post. He wins just on hype alone.

[Koitsukai]

If Shin was weaker than Pui Pui, then his future self wouldn't have survived a blast from Future Dabura and still have power left to hold him down so Future Trunks could kill him, if Shin took that and lived, he can take whatever Pui Pui can throw his way.
Pui Pui is not even base level and Dabura is SS2 level. Not to mention Shin surviving Kid Buu, and present Shin surviving Fat Buu, while Pui Pui couldn't even live past a non-serious base Vegeta, he couldn't even TOUCH base Vegeta, while Shin actually can oneshot Freeza.
Two of the most impressive races of U7 were shown in DBS to be far from Namek Freeza, the universe isn't filled with stronger-than-Freeza goons.

Base Gotenks (BoG) vs Majin Boo (BoG)

Boo takes it. He is still considered to be somewhat of a good addition to the team, so base Gotenks shouldn't be a problem. SS Gotenks would be needed.

Cell Max vs Jiren (full power)

Potential Unleashed Piccolo (not Orange) vs GoD Toppo

Beast Gohan vs Beerus

1- The powercreep puts Jiren way down the line, but his inclusion and discussion about his efficiency implies he is not old news. So, against a mindless creature, even if he is overpowered, I think he can find a way to defeat it, specially with a weakspot as visible as Cell Max's.

2- I see Piccolo putting up a good fight with base Toppo, but having nothing to do against GoD Toppo, he needs his orange form.

3- Beerus, probably with both of his arms on his back.