The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:44 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:14 pm Was that stated anywhere?
No, but it can be inferred. Vegeta watched Goku battle at his best via Super Saiyan Blue and doesn't believe he's been surpassed until Goku whips out the Kaioken.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:24 am

Goku9001 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:44 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:14 pm Was that stated anywhere?
No, but it can be inferred. Vegeta watched Goku battle at his best via Super Saiyan Blue and doesn't believe he's been surpassed until Goku whips out the Kaioken.
Eh, I don't see it like that. Vegeta can be a 9.9 to Goku's 10 and still have that reaction to Goku using Kaioken. After all Goku ends up being a 100 and Vegeta a 9.9 so it makes sense he gets angry.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:35 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:24 am
Eh, I don't see it like that. Vegeta can be a 9.9 to Goku's 10 and still have that reaction to Goku using Kaioken. After all Goku ends up being a 100 and Vegeta a 9.9 so it makes sense he gets angry.
Then Copy Vegeta would have been stronger than Goku was.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:53 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:22 pm
Goku9001 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:50 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:46 pm He did? Mind giving the episode where it's said?
Certainly. I believe it's stated in episode 45 or 46 where Goku battles Copy Vegeta. He confirms that Vegeta had been training after the tournament and had grown even stronger.
I see. He mentions Vegeta as gotten stronger. Nothing about himself which fits what I always thought of Vegeta not being equal to him at the U6 tournament and caught up to him in before the Commeson arc. Making them equals when Black shows up.
The way it’s stated makes it sound like both had powered up.
Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
Gohan should take this fairly easily if it’s Pre Majin Vegeta. A fully powered Gohan should be hardly below even Majin Vegeta at the very least.

Assuming this is Vegeta’s FF that ripped Cell’s arm off, Goku’s Kamehameha is going to steamroll over it pretty easily.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2393
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:10 pm

Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc): Vegeta expressed eagerness to challenge Gohan to a fight at the tournament before he was even fully aware of how much the Saiyan hybrid had deteriorated from lack of training. I see these two as being near equal with Gohan perhaps having a small lead but nothing substantial. Vegeta should win thanks to more experience or whatever.

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga): Make it Vegeta's Final Flash and SSJ Grade 3 Trunks' Buster Cannon together and they're still significantly outmatched here. Goku was substantially ahead of everyone in his group sans Gohan at the time.

User avatar
ZombieVito
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:47 pm

Goku9001 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:35 am
ZombieVito wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 2:24 am
Eh, I don't see it like that. Vegeta can be a 9.9 to Goku's 10 and still have that reaction to Goku using Kaioken. After all Goku ends up being a 100 and Vegeta a 9.9 so it makes sense he gets angry.
Then Copy Vegeta would have been stronger than Goku was.
Why? Vegeta improved but not by much. They should be equals by episode 45.

The time frame between the U6 and Zamasu arcs are like a month at the most so any improvement was minimal.

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Korru » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:25 pm

Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
1). Vegeta wins
2). Vegeta's Final Flash
Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:09 pm

Korru wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:25 pm
Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
1). Vegeta wins
2). Vegeta's Final Flash
Goku and Vegeta were only a little above CG Gohan according to Piccolo and the majin boost is large. Buu saga gohan would be a closer match. CG wins.

Vegeta had to narrow the beam width to hurt cell and this was a supressed cell.
Goku blew away the top half of perfect cell ez.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:24 am

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 1:47 pm
Why? Vegeta improved but not by much. They should be equals by episode 45.

The time frame between the U6 and Zamasu arcs are like a month at the most so any improvement was minimal.
Then why mention it? Goku wouldn't compliment Vegeta over such a miniscule boost. The series establishes a consistent trend in which Goku and Vegeta remain equal in their equivalent forms. We would need something substantial conveyed to us that this trend was broken during the U6 Tournament. However, nothing points us to that direction. Vegeta doesn't even believe Goku is stronger than him after watching him in Blue until after Goku whips out the Kaioken. This is the same person who made it such a big deal to surpass Goku by a slim margin in the Android saga as well as Goku surpassing Kid Gohan despite it being a minimal boost.

You're giving me nothing to work with here.

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Korru » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:43 am

TobyS wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:09 pm
Korru wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:25 pm
Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
1). Vegeta wins
2). Vegeta's Final Flash
Goku and Vegeta were only a little above CG Gohan according to Piccolo and the majin boost is large. Buu saga gohan would be a closer match. CG wins.

Vegeta had to narrow the beam width to hurt cell and this was a supressed cell.
Goku blew away the top half of perfect cell ez.
I do agree that SSJ2 Teen Gohan from Cell Saga is stronger, but Vegeta's Final Flash is far stronger than Gohan's best Ki-attack. Its solely because of the Final Flash amp is why Vegeta wins. No, unknown if Gohan would let Vegeta charge-up his Ki-attack, tho

The Final Flash should outweigh the difference between a [Suppressed Final Form Cell to Powered-Up Cell (via Grade 4 rough-equivalent)] ... Vs. ... [Final Flash and a Kamehameha]

In other words, I do feel that SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Cell Saga) would win in a fist-fight against SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, but when it comes to Ki-attacks, the Final Flash succeeds.
Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Korru » Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:52 am

NEXT FIGHT




Mouma ( or Swarm of Mouma ) Vs. Dercori


Round 1: Fight takes place at Planet Beehay
Round 2: Fight takes place at T.O.P. Stage
Round 3: Fight takes place at damaged T.O.P. Stage


For those of you who can't fathom this fight ...
this is basically a very vicious game of Hide-&-Seek + Peek-a-boo
Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:13 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:39 am Freeza vs Frost. Both from the ToP, no golden form or dirty tricks.

Did Freeza really need to trick Frost into trusting him, or was he just being a dick? I mean, Frost fighting SSJ Vegeta in the ToP is a pretty impressive feat.
I think Freeza. Frost was losing to a SS, and needing trickery to defeat Piccolo, while Freeza was fighting SS Caulifla, who in base was above Cabba (and Vegeta from the U6 arc). I doubt Frost closed that gap, in any case he is not incredibly weaker, but still below Freeza.
Peach wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:59 pm Full Powered SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Saga) vs. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc)

Vegeta's Final Flash (Cell saga) vs. SSJ1 Goku's Kamehameha (Cell Caga)
1) It could go either way. I think Gohan still has the edge, barely. But I could see Vegeta not selling his defeat short.

2) If Geet's attack was stronger than Goku's, Cell would've died. It was nothing but a joke to Cell; while he lost a lot of power after regeneration himself after Goku's attack.

RE: U6 arc Goku and Vegeta. I never got any hints that they weren't equals, and I got from it that Goku was one step ahead with KK, not without it.

MrGohanks
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:51 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by MrGohanks » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm

False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:38 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)
1) Vegito should take it, imo.

2) GT is a clusterfuck with it's own power scaling - if we take it seriously, Goten in base should be stronger than Buuhan.

3) By Base Moro you mean... What? Moro when he arrived on Earth, or elderly Moro with no life force absorbed? In the first case, then Prime Moro wins. On the second, Kefla should take this very easily if she doesn't fuck around with him.

4) Semi-Perfect Cell wins handily. Said Gogeta would only be, at best, as strong as Goku's SSj. If he were to turn SSj, tho, he could actually put up a good fight against Perfect Cell's full power, IMO.

5) No idea, but I think even a rusty Gohan would still be stronger than Piccolo - no indication he powered up between arcs, after all.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:02 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)
1) While Goku, according to the rest, got a helluva boost, and everybody, including himself, believed it was SSG, I think at best he was at SS Vegito's level, well above it, I guess. He was a SS, though, so probably SS3 Goku >> SS3 Vegito. But as he was, I think he could only take on Super Vegito.

2) As SS, Gohan teamed up with Goten and they couldn't even make base Goku budge. And that Goku was somewhere around SS3 from Z. Buuhan eats Gohan alive.

3) Kefla is not fast enough to avoid Moro's absorption. On top of that, her personality is ideal for Moro's technique: just standing there, boasting and hyping herself up. Great meal for Moro.

4) I'm not sure if you mean 1st or 2nd form Cell.
It is implied that a base fusion is as strong as their strongest fusee's form. Base Gogeta would be equal or slightly stronger than SS Goku. And without the ROSAT, he cannot even stand up to the androids, much less so against Cell after absorbing one of them. Nor against the 1st form Cell that was strong enough not to explode on impact against Kamiccolo. Base Gogeta probably can only take 19 and 20.

5) Gohan.
Piccolo, by RoF, has gotten incredibly weak, weaker than jumpsuit Gohan, who should be the weakest adult Gohan we've ever seen. So, by BoG, Piccolo should be somewhat stronger than his RoF self, so at best on par with RoF SS Gohan, who should be weaker than Buu arc SS Gohan.

User avatar
Korru
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Korru » Tue Apr 26, 2022 2:23 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)

1). Invalid Question. Vegetto never used the SSJ3 transformation in the Buu Saga
2). GT Gohan easily wins - even Base GT Gohan easily wins. Mismatch, very one-sided
3). Moro wins due to Magic hax

4). Semi-Cell is in between SSJ and ASSJ ( or Grade 2 ). Meanwhile Metamoran Fusion provides a higher amp than the difference between SSJ (Grade 1) and ASSJ (Grade 2). In other words ... [Metamoran Fusion] > [the gap between Grade 1 - Grade 2] . However ...
Full Power Vegeta (Namek saga) is not comparable to Full Power Goku (Namek Saga) ... . So ... [a] if this hypothetical Gogeta is with a version of Vegeta is more comparable to Goku, this Base Gogeta is favorable to win. However, if Goku needs to lower his battle power considerably and/or noticably just for this Metamoran Fusion to work ... Base Gogeta should still win, but with needing to use Ki-attacks ( mainly Stardust Breaker )

5). Gohan
Liked what you liked ... before it was cool

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2393
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:42 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)
False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga): Basically he just accumulated the power of all his companions who were involved in the ritual. I could see him surpassing the first, perhaps even the second level of Super Saiyan for Vegetto but the transition from two to three seems like all too great of a leap for just Goten, Trunks and Vegeta to compensate for when much of the power is likely coming from Gohan. Maybe if Gotenks was providing his energy in tandem with Tarble it could allow him to close the gap to challenge SSJ3 but as it stands in the film I don't see Goku winning here.

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan Didn't base Gohan shrug off Rilldo's attacks? I believe that's a year or so after his possessed form was forced into battling his own untransformed father. Now if you consider Goku's observation of Rilldo's power being in reference to Kid Buu and the discrepancy between Kid/Fat Buu/SSJ3 Goku (Buu arc) and Gotenks/Gohan/Super Buu to be in the realm of several hundred times over then Super Saiyan 2 probably isn't going to be enough here for SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Buuhan.

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro: I have to agree with the others. Moro is a rare outlier where if you're not preemptively aware of his abilities then it can be a detriment for you. Kefla will likely be depleted of her ki here thanks to her own arrogance and lack of foreknowledge of Moro's sorcery.

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell: It's left up to speculation on how powerful this fused Saiyan warrior would become. I've heard it be explained that the fusion is greater than individual fusee's ability to transform. So perhaps this hypothetical Gogeta would emerge stronger than SSJ Goku from Namek? Now under normal circumstances that would be dismissed as grossly unprepared but don't forget that Gogeta should logically have knowledge of the Kaioken through Goku. I don't think Semi-Cell is over ten times superior to the standards of post Namek arc. Now if Gogeta isn't able to decisively wipe out his opponent with a projectile then he could wind up inadvertently causing Cell to improve in strength thanks to his Saiyan cells and being near the point of death. So I could see this going either way depending on Gogeta's effectiveness.

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga): We have nothing to gauge Piccolo's strength at the time except for his habit of training continuously regardless of there being a menace or not. Based on my arbitrary opinion, I could see this Piccolo having reached Cell Games MSSJ Goku or perhaps MSSJ Gohan level. How does that coincide with events from ROF? Residual but waning power from the Ultimate power up. Gohan emitted strength during an outburst that astonished his father and that was when the ritual wasn't complete. Note how he appeared to be in a transitional stage to Super Saiyan with his eyes whitened out. Something akin to that I could see being used as an explanation for Gohan's deteriorating yet superior power to the likes of Piccolo during ROF.

I guess in this match up I would have Piccolo winning.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:33 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)
Not sure. Could go either way since Goku is just vaguely stronger. It’s also unclear how Vegetto would compare to SSJ3

Gohan. Gohan-Boo probably isn’t even twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan, and even SSJ2 Gohan would be multiple times above that.

Moro wins thanks to his magic.

Cell destroys Gogeta, probably even SSJ Gogeta.

Piccolo was weaker than Base Gohan in RoF. Not I’m not sure how RoF Gohan compares to Boo Saga, but they might be so far apart.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:29 pm

MrGohanks wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:25 pm False SSG Goku (when they tried doing the ritual without Videl) vs SSJ3 Vegito (Buu saga)

SSJ2 Gohan (GT) vs Buuhan

SSJ2 Kefla vs Base Moro

Base Gogeta (End of Namek arc) vs Semi-Cell

Piccolo (BoG) vs SSJ1 Gohan (Buu saga)
In the manga we don't see this and thus it's not stated to be anything special. Just that it's a strong Goku.

If ss2 stacks with mystic and he kept training I give it to Gohan. Buus thing is additive. If gohans just a little stronger than z then Buu.

Kefla but only if she speed blitzes. I have Gohan about ssg here. Kefla was a match at ss2 she's double.

I can't recall old Moro needing blue to beat before he absorbed anything.

Base gogeta is namek as Goku level. Cell thrashes. He needs ss1.

Piccolo wins but bit that easily.

I'm not sure why people are working backwards from RoF where they overstate Gohan. Gohan is considered useful alongside Buu before he reveals he might not be able to turn ss anymore.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2393
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:32 pm

Surprised more people haven't mentioned Gogeta potentially using the Kaioken. Is even a twenty times amplification not enough to match or overcome Semi-Cell here?

Post Reply