The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:39 pm

dragon boss z wrote:A 2x strength difference isn’t enough to one shot. Like I said, if Ikari Broly can’t even one shot base Goku, there is no logical way ssj2 Caulifla is one shotting ssj Vegeta.
That's not true at all. Recoome was one shot by Goku with a ~1.5x gap, and Vegeta one shot Cui with a 1.33x gap.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:04 pm

Base Broly vs SSJ2 Gohan(ToP) and SSJ2 Cabba(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Ultimate Gohan(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Android 17(ToP)
SSJ1 Broly vs Hakai Toppo

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:08 pm

GatoF wrote:Base Broly vs SSJ2 Gohan(ToP) and SSJ2 Cabba(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Ultimate Gohan(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Android 17(ToP)
SSJ1 Broly vs Hakai Toppo
Broly wins everything
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Vegeta one shotted Cui with less of a gap.
PFM18 wrote: That's not true at all. Recoome was one shot by Goku with a ~1.5x gap, and Vegeta one shot Cui with a 1.33x gap.
Cui was trash who was killed while running away.
Recoome was damaged and tired already, Goku was over 2x stronger and attacked him in the middle of an attack and even said it was because he left himself wide open.

Goku and Piccolo were 3x weaker than Raditz and weren’t one shot. 50% Frieza was over 2x weaker than ssj Goku and wasn’t one shot, 70% Frieza (who was still more than 2x weaker than Goku) managed to push ssj Goku back.

In Super practically nobody in the ToP got one shot. Krillin was fighting people 18 was fighting. 18 was fighting people 17 was fighting. Krillin was not less than 2x weaker than Krillin.

However none of that is even relavent, as Ikari Broly not being able to shot ssj or even base Goku, outright proves ssj2 Caulifla can’t one shot ssj Vegeta from the Broly movie, unless you think Vegeta is much weaker than Goku or if you think ssj2 Caulifla is stronger than Ikari Broly.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:35 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
ruler9871 wrote: There were multiple feats and statements of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger throughout the ToP. You are being in denial. If their bases didn't get stronger then their transformations wouldn't have gotten stronger either (because they are multipliers of their bases). It that simple. Why else do you think each UI Omen was stronger than the last (despite the form itself never changing)? Hell, the fatigue SSJ2 Goku that fought Caulifla & Kale was stated and shown to be much stronger than the full stamina SSJ2 Goku from the 1st half of the ToP arc.

And where was it ever stated that SSB Gogeta in the Broly film = SSB Vegito in the Black arc (which doesn't make any sense and isnt supported by anything)? The only thing that guide said was that Metamorian Fusion & Potara are equally powerful.

Black arc SSB Vegito is weaker than any version of SSBE Vegeta & Current SSBKKx20 Goku, while Current SSB Gogeta is above Beerus and possibly Jiren too. Obviously not equal.
UIO got stronger beacuse Goku unlocked more and more power of the form until it reached the max and mastered it.

No statement was made they got stronger. Only that they got stronger forms. I suggest you watch E113 again because no such statement about Goku was said. He kept up with Caulifla by skill alone.

I never said SSB Gogeta = Vegetto Blue. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 can't be stronger than Vegetto Blue since they haven't surpassed Beerus with those forms.
dragon boss z wrote: 2x strength difference isn’t enough to one shot. Like I said, if Ikari Broly can’t even one shot base Goku, there is no logical way ssj2 Caulifla is one shotting ssj Vegeta.
Vegeta one shotted Cui with less of a gap.
1. The Omen never changed. Its the same form all 3 times until Goku Masters UI. Yet Goku was stronger each time he used it. That means Goku's base had to had get stronger in order for each Omen to be stronger, logically.

2. "No statement was made they got stronger", "I suggest you watch E113 again because no such statement about Goku was said"

Debunked here:
Image

3. Black arc Vegito is definitely NOT on par with Beerus in the anime (which has different scaling from the manga. And even with the manga, Toyotaro himself said that Shin's statement about SSB Vegito >= Beerus wasn't meant to be a definite fact). And SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku (since ep.123) ARE stronger than everything in the Black arc because:

A) They scale higher than 1st Omen Goku (who fought evenly with Suppressed Jiren in ep.110), who scales higher than everything in the Black arc.

B) Suppressed Jiren>Infinite Zamasu according to Shin, Vegeta and Goku themselves. Later, SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.123 both forced Jiren to pull out even more of his power than he did against the 1st Omen.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Nobody answered my question.
Caulifla best girl! :)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:53 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:New Hypothetical Question
How strong would a fusion between Gohan and Vegeta, otherwise known as Vegehan, be? (Buu Arc)
Most likely weaker than Vegito, due to a lack of a rival boost. There was a guide (forgot which one) that stated that a hypothetical Goku x Gohan fusion would be weaker than Vegito due to the same reason.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:30 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Recoome was damaged and tired already, Goku was over 2x stronger and attacked him in the middle of an attack and even said it was because he left himself wide open.
No, Goku was only using 60K of his power at the time, he didn't use his full-power of 90K until he fought Ginyu. It was a one shot at 1.5x definitively.
Cui was trash who was killed while running away.
He was stilll one shot with a 1.33x gap.
50% Frieza was over 2x weaker than ssj Goku and wasn’t one shot, 70% Frieza (who was still more than 2x weaker than Goku) managed to push ssj Goku back.
50% Freeza not being one shot was by design. Goku wanted to fight him at his full-power and he was playing with his food. 70% Freeza being 2x weaker than SSJ Goku is factually incorrect.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:45 pm

PFM18 wrote: No, Goku was only using 60K of his power at the time, he didn't use his full-power of 90K until he fought Ginyu. It was a one shot at 1.5x definitively.
You just made that up. It was Ginyu later guesstimating that Goku had a power level of 60,000 but he underestimated him. Which reminds me, Ginyu had trouble with Goku even though Goku's power level was 90,000 and his was 120,000.
He was stilll one shot with a 1.33x gap.
It's irrelevant to my argument though. A scrub getting one shot back in Z doesn't mean ssj2 Caulifla can one shot current ssj Vegeta or Goku, who can't even be one shot by Ikari Broly.
50% Freeza not being one shot was by design. Goku wanted to fight him at his full-power and he was playing with his food. 70% Freeza being 2x weaker than SSJ Goku is factually incorrect.
My bad on the 70% Frieza thing, I was thinking 70 million. 70% Frieza would be slightly stronger than 50% ssj Goku, so it would still be close to a 2x gap.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:46 pm

SSB Goku (Late Namek Arc) vs SSG Goku (BoG)
SSG Vegeta (DBS Broly) vs SSB Copy-Vegeta
SSJ3 Future Trunks (Cell Games) vs Fat Buu (Buu arc)
SSJ1 Goku (Start of BoG) vs Super Perfect Cell
Krillin & Tien (both Cell Games) vs Base Goku & Base Vegeta (both End of Namek arc)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) vs SSG Goku (End of ToP)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Ikari Broly
SSJ1 Gogeta (DBS Broly) vs God Toppo
SSJ1 Kefla vs SSBKKx20 Goku (when he fought her, full stamina) & SSB Vegeta (ep.122)
Piccolo (Buu arc) vs Semi-Perfect Cell & Android 16
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:33 pm

ruler9871 wrote:SSB Goku (Late Namek Arc) vs SSG Goku (BoG)
SSG Vegeta (DBS Broly) vs SSB Copy-Vegeta
SSJ3 Future Trunks (Cell Games) vs Fat Buu (Buu arc)
SSJ1 Goku (Start of BoG) vs Super Perfect Cell
Krillin & Tien (both Cell Games) vs Base Goku & Base Vegeta (both End of Namek arc)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) vs SSG Goku (End of ToP)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Ikari Broly
SSJ1 Gogeta (DBS Broly) vs God Toppo
SSJ1 Kefla vs SSBKKx20 Goku (when he fought her, full stamina) & SSB Vegeta (ep.122)
Piccolo (Buu arc) vs Semi-Perfect Cell & Android 16
-SSG Goku one shots
-either way
-Buu due to his regeneration, stamina, absorption, and candy beam
-Could go either way, but I'm leaning Goku.
-Goku and Vegeta
-Goku due to his skill
-Broly
-Gogeta
-Goku and Vegeta
-I'm leaning Cell and 16.
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:Nobody answered my question.
Nobody wanted to :)
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:New Hypothetical Question
How strong would a fusion between Gohan and Vegeta, otherwise known as Vegehan, be? (Buu Arc)
Weaker than Vegito, but stronger thane everyone else.
GatoF wrote:Base Broly vs SSJ2 Gohan(ToP) and SSJ2 Cabba(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Ultimate Gohan(ToP)
Ikari Broly vs Android 17(ToP)
SSJ1 Broly vs Hakai Toppo
Probably Broly every round, but none of them would be stomps.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:04 am

ruler9871 wrote:SSB Goku (Late Namek Arc) vs SSG Goku (BoG)
SSG Vegeta (DBS Broly) vs SSB Copy-Vegeta
SSJ3 Future Trunks (Cell Games) vs Fat Buu (Buu arc)
SSJ1 Goku (Start of BoG) vs Super Perfect Cell
Krillin & Tien (both Cell Games) vs Base Goku & Base Vegeta (both End of Namek arc)
Ultimate Gohan (ToP) vs SSG Goku (End of ToP)
Android 17 (ToP) vs Ikari Broly
SSJ1 Gogeta (DBS Broly) vs God Toppo
SSJ1 Kefla vs SSBKKx20 Goku (when he fought her, full stamina) & SSB Vegeta (ep.122)
Piccolo (Buu arc) vs Semi-Perfect Cell & Android 16
R1: god goku stomps due to base difference
R2: God vegeta stomps for the same reason of the earlier fight
R3: fat buu stomps due to base difference between buu saga goku and future trunks
R4: ssj goku from bog stomps due to zenkais taken during buu saga and after
R5: crillin and tenshinhan via kikoho
R6: God goku stomps due to the zenkai he took mid way in the top
R7: broly
R8: ssj gogeta
R9: ssj kefla stomps early top ssbkk20 goku and gets stomped by ssbE vegeta
R10 : piccolo easily
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:52 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Dragon Ball Gus wrote:New Hypothetical Question
How strong would a fusion between Gohan and Vegeta, otherwise known as Vegehan, be? (Buu Arc)
Most likely weaker than Vegito, due to a lack of a rival boost. There was a guide (forgot which one) that stated that a hypothetical Goku x Gohan fusion would be weaker than Vegito due to the same reason.
I'd be very interested to see this guide. I've never heard of it.

Gohan is worlds above Goku and Vegeta and the resultant fusion would be some amount of saiyan fusion hybrid which are stronger than either kind alone.

Yes there was a rival boost but that always read to me as an in universe justification for veggetto to be strong enough to do the job, whereas Gohan+saiyan wouldn't need the justification...

Hot take I even think Ten+Goku would be stronger than Vegetto, they'd get a bit of the rival boost but they could be as much stronger than Vegetto (less some rival boost) as Gohan was than Goku IMO. Because he'd be a half saiyan half human exactly like Gohan, where both fusees were trained to the max.

I think this didn't happen due to vegetas greater popularity and the half bald half not bald look is goofy AF.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TobyS » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:24 am

Strongest person potara Tencha could beat/runs a db gauntlet/can kill with a kikoho

1. {A} They are individually as weak as you say they are.
1. {B} The above but they can use the kaioken x20

2. {A} They are individually just behind BoG base Goku who's a bit behind 100% namek freeza
2. {B} The above but they can use the kaioken x20.

3. {A} 2A plus potentials unleashed by elder kai.
3. {B} The above but they can use the kaioken x20

4. {A} 3A plus training from Whis
4. {B} The above but they can use the kaioken x20
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:34 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
ruler9871 wrote: There were multiple feats and statements of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger throughout the ToP. You are being in denial. If their bases didn't get stronger then their transformations wouldn't have gotten stronger either (because they are multipliers of their bases). It that simple. Why else do you think each UI Omen was stronger than the last (despite the form itself never changing)? Hell, the fatigue SSJ2 Goku that fought Caulifla & Kale was stated and shown to be much stronger than the full stamina SSJ2 Goku from the 1st half of the ToP arc.

And where was it ever stated that SSB Gogeta in the Broly film = SSB Vegito in the Black arc (which doesn't make any sense and isnt supported by anything)? The only thing that guide said was that Metamorian Fusion & Potara are equally powerful.

Black arc SSB Vegito is weaker than any version of SSBE Vegeta & Current SSBKKx20 Goku, while Current SSB Gogeta is above Beerus and possibly Jiren too. Obviously not equal.
UIO got stronger beacuse Goku unlocked more and more power of the form until it reached the max and mastered it.

No statement was made they got stronger. Only that they got stronger forms. I suggest you watch E113 again because no such statement about Goku was said. He kept up with Caulifla by skill alone.

I never said SSB Gogeta = Vegetto Blue. SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKx20 can't be stronger than Vegetto Blue since they haven't surpassed Beerus with those forms.
dragon boss z wrote: 2x strength difference isn’t enough to one shot. Like I said, if Ikari Broly can’t even one shot base Goku, there is no logical way ssj2 Caulifla is one shotting ssj Vegeta.
Vegeta one shotted Cui with less of a gap.
1. The Omen never changed. Its the same form all 3 times until Goku Masters UI. Yet Goku was stronger each time he used it. That means Goku's base had to had get stronger in order for each Omen to be stronger, logically.

2. "No statement was made they got stronger", "I suggest you watch E113 again because no such statement about Goku was said"

Debunked here:
Image

3. Black arc Vegito is definitely NOT on par with Beerus in the anime (which has different scaling from the manga. And even with the manga, Toyotaro himself said that Shin's statement about SSB Vegito >= Beerus wasn't meant to be a definite fact). And SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku (since ep.123) ARE stronger than everything in the Black arc because:

A) They scale higher than 1st Omen Goku (who fought evenly with Suppressed Jiren in ep.110), who scales higher than everything in the Black arc.

B) Suppressed Jiren>Infinite Zamasu according to Shin, Vegeta and Goku themselves. Later, SSBE Vegeta & SSBKKx20 Goku in ep.123 both forced Jiren to pull out even more of his power than he did against the 1st Omen.
Goku was suppressed the entire time in E100...

And if something from the manga doesn't contradict the anime then it's fair game to use it since they come from the same source (Toriyama).

In any case we are going to go around in circles so just agree to disagree.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:09 pm

ZombieVito wrote:And if something from the manga doesn't contradict the anime then it's fair game to use it since they come from the same source (Toriyama).
If it came from Toriyama it would have appeared in both mediums. If it only appeared in the manga, it's a Toyotaro idea.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:00 am

PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:And if something from the manga doesn't contradict the anime then it's fair game to use it since they come from the same source (Toriyama).
If it came from Toriyama it would have appeared in both mediums. If it only appeared in the manga, it's a Toyotaro idea.
For the most part I agree, but ssj Black was in Toriyama's notes but was only in the manga.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:06 am

dragon boss z wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:And if something from the manga doesn't contradict the anime then it's fair game to use it since they come from the same source (Toriyama).
If it came from Toriyama it would have appeared in both mediums. If it only appeared in the manga, it's a Toyotaro idea.
For the most part I agree, but ssj Black was in Toriyama's notes but was only in the manga.
How do you know it was in his notes?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:22 am

PFM18 wrote: How do you know it was in his notes?
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/5 ... anga_ch19/

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:24 am

PFM18 wrote: If it came from Toriyama it would have appeared in both mediums. If it only appeared in the manga, it's a Toyotaro idea.
A Toyotaro idea that Toriyama didn't correct or dismiss.

Also we don't know if he asked Toriyama about Vegetto's power. If Toriyama goes out of his way to correct minor dialogue for Ribrianne then an it's a sure thing he looked on Vegetto's power statement.

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