The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Nokra » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:56 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:41 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:33 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:23 am


I think I get it. When you compare the two, you mean that in Super, Fusion should be around several tens of times stronger than the sum of both individuals power, whether on DBS: Broly, Base Gogeta is at least low SSJB level.

Seeing how Kefla in Base was above SSJG Goku (a Goku near his prime during the ToP), I guess that the statement means less than the actual proof. So, I wouldn't have the two differ (Super's logic with the movie's) but personally I would like to listen to your opinion on this.
Probably its just (A fp + B fp) x 20-190
Still, to me it count only the mortal transormations, that would be enough for base vegetto or gogeta to be stringere gohan Ssb Goku alone. Doing that with the god forms would be enough and it would be no se se, because certainly base gogeta is non tens of Times Goku ssjb
Perhaps. Still, even a hundred times of SSJ3 should be around mid-SSJB level. I guess that without us getting Base Gogeta's fighting performance against C-type Broly, we can't really have a clear view on the subject.

Nonetheless, for all those who say that Kefla can be stronger than Broly, just seeing Gogeta's reaction to Broly's power means a lot. I mean, come on....

Even SSJ3 Kefla would be stomped by Full Power SSJ Broly. That said, Blue Vegito or Gogeta would godstomp her. It isn't weird that even in SDBH Merged Zamasu toyed with SSJ2 Kefla.
Kefla would dominate any zamsu what do u mean?

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:55 am

Nokra wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:56 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:41 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:33 pm


Probably its just (A fp + B fp) x 20-190
Still, to me it count only the mortal transormations, that would be enough for base vegetto or gogeta to be stringere gohan Ssb Goku alone. Doing that with the god forms would be enough and it would be no se se, because certainly base gogeta is non tens of Times Goku ssjb
Perhaps. Still, even a hundred times of SSJ3 should be around mid-SSJB level. I guess that without us getting Base Gogeta's fighting performance against C-type Broly, we can't really have a clear view on the subject.

Nonetheless, for all those who say that Kefla can be stronger than Broly, just seeing Gogeta's reaction to Broly's power means a lot. I mean, come on....

Even SSJ3 Kefla would be stomped by Full Power SSJ Broly. That said, Blue Vegito or Gogeta would godstomp her. It isn't weird that even in SDBH Merged Zamasu toyed with SSJ2 Kefla.
Kefla would dominate any zamsu what do u mean?
I do not question her power, she is on a different level afterall, due to being a fused being.

However, with what we were presented with, Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc should be at the level of either 1st UIO Goku, or the Spirit Bomb. I am kinda lowballing Vegito here, however, Kefla as a SSJ2 was near that power and she was overwhelmed by 2nd UIO Goku, exactly for the reason that the Saiyan surpassed that power.

Ultimately, although Merged Zamasu in his giant, corrupted form is said to not be able to keep up with Vegito's speed (something thoroughly discussed in the DBS Strength Discussion Thread), he is somewhere near his power.

Do SSJ2 Kefla from the ToP should fight on par with Merged Zamasu from the Future Trunks arc. Notice how I indicate that. She could be slightly more powerful, but she would be incapable of killing him.

Ultimately, my last point is that SDBH wanted to keep it somewhat relevant, having "resurrected" Merged Zamasu above SSJ2 Kefla's level. Notbto mention the large span of time that passed since the ToP for Caulifla and Kale to get stronger.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:03 am

ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:18 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:41 pm
Perhaps. Still, even a hundred times of SSJ3 should be around mid-SSJB level.
And what do you base that on? There's no official multiplier for SSG.
I divide God's multiplier in 2 moments :
Ritual: it's very big, so big that God >>fusion ssj3

Post ritual : as shown in dbs, specially in the top and dbs broly, God doesn't appear to be exponentially stonger than ssj3. I personally have ssg post ritual as ssj3 x3,5 , but I used to have it as x1,25 or x2,5 ssj3
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:20 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:03 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:18 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:41 pm
Perhaps. Still, even a hundred times of SSJ3 should be around mid-SSJB level.
And what do you base that on? There's no official multiplier for SSG.
I divide God's multiplier in 2 moments :
Ritual: it's very big, so big that God >>fusion ssj3

Post ritual : as shown in dbs, specially in the top and dbs broly, God doesn't appear to be exponentially stonger than ssj3. I personally have ssg post ritual as ssj3 x3,5 , but I used to have it as x1,25 or x2,5 ssj3
Although I understand your logic, I kinda use the same multiplier for both. SSJG's original performance was something different from what we had seen that far, so it makes sense for the form to seem significantly weaker by the time more powerful forms were discovered.

As such, MY HEADCANNON on SSJG is that you multiply the 1 individual's SSJ multiplier (from the ritual) with the sum of the other 5 individuals' SSJ multiplier.

50×(5×50)=50×250=12500

That is my SSJG multiplier. I try to not use it in debates, but I guess I can show you what I think of it. Nearly 30 times stronger than SSJ3. Or roughly 10+ times stronger than SSJ4 (as a form).

Mmmm, I said something there... :shock:

Please don't kill me!
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:10 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:20 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:03 am
ruler9871 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:18 pm


And what do you base that on? There's no official multiplier for SSG.
I divide God's multiplier in 2 moments :
Ritual: it's very big, so big that God >>fusion ssj3

Post ritual : as shown in dbs, specially in the top and dbs broly, God doesn't appear to be exponentially stonger than ssj3. I personally have ssg post ritual as ssj3 x3,5 , but I used to have it as x1,25 or x2,5 ssj3
Although I understand your logic, I kinda use the same multiplier for both. SSJG's original performance was something different from what we had seen that far, so it makes sense for the form to seem significantly weaker by the time more powerful forms were discovered.

As such, MY HEADCANNON on SSJG is that you multiply the 1 individual's SSJ multiplier (from the ritual) with the sum of the other 5 individuals' SSJ multiplier.

50×(5×50)=50×250=12500

That is my SSJG multiplier. I try to not use it in debates, but I guess I can show you what I think of it. Nearly 30 times stronger than SSJ3. Or roughly 10+ times stronger than SSJ4 (as a form).

Mmmm, I said something there... :shock:

Please don't kill me!
10+ Times steonger of what, excuse me? C.C
Please, don't tell me that you think that ssj4 has a x1000 multiplier, that's awful

Returning to god, x12'500 is really a too small multiplier to have it Adobe ssj3 fusions... it is wrong by logic.
Plus, x12'500 is too much of a multiplier for post ritual God, nothing points out that,after bog it is so much stronger than ssj3, and everything points out that it is less than this, specially in dbs broly
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:33 am

Obviously, I'm now explaining why I say what I say :
Let's start from ritual God :
As I said, it is >>ssj3 fusion, because Goku said that he couldn't beat beerus not even fusing after fighting him only on king kai's planet.
So, let's lowball and use the multiplier from vados in this explaining : vegetto is (Goku + vegeta) x20-190 but, for a better comprehension of that, we know,from dbz that metamorphosis fusion gives birth to a fighter surely stronger than his part's ssj version , and at that time vegetto >>>gogeta.
So, always lowballing, if ssj is x50 , base gogeta is at least x60, and, with vadoses formula vegetto is at least (Goku + vegeta) x40.
So, Lowballing :
Goku =1
Vegetto = 2 x40 = 80
Ssj3 = 24'000
And we know that this vegetto isn't enough to beat bod beerus on king kai's planet.
Lowballing, let's say that beerus was at his 5% there, and put it at 35'000 in this scale. Too strong for even a ssj3 version of vegetto.
God Goku was 60% of beerus, so 35'000 x12 = 420'000.
This, lowballing to my limits, would be ritual God's multiplier.

Speaking about Broly movie, so about all of dbs after bog, vegeta (equal to Goku) as ssj dominates broly, then broly rages out with that oozaru thing, so it is a x10, and vegeta (successively Goku too), using God returns to dominate him.
Let's say that broly got more than a x10 just for a small rage boost, that's ok . So :

Goku/vegeta = 1
Ssj =50
Broly = 40
Oozaru power, rage = 450 to 800
Goku/ vegeta God = 500 to 1000

Then broly goes for other rage boosts an things changes again, but in the part that matters in this discussion it is like that
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:40 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:33 am
Obviously, I'm now explaining why I say what I say :
Let's start from ritual God :
As I said, it is >>ssj3 fusion, because Goku said that he couldn't beat beerus not even fusing after fighting him only on king kai's planet.
So, let's lowball and use the multiplier from vados in this explaining : vegetto is (Goku + vegeta) x20-190 but, for a better comprehension of that, we know,from dbz that metamorphosis fusion gives birth to a fighter surely stronger than his part's ssj version , and at that time vegetto >>>gogeta.
So, always lowballing, if ssj is x50 , base gogeta is at least x60, and, with vadoses formula vegetto is at least (Goku + vegeta) x40.
So, Lowballing :
Goku =1
Vegetto = 2 x40 = 80
Ssj3 = 24'000
And we know that this vegetto isn't enough to beat bod beerus on king kai's planet.
Lowballing, let's say that beerus was at his 5% there, and put it at 35'000 in this scale. Too strong for even a ssj3 version of vegetto.
God Goku was 60% of beerus, so 35'000 x12 = 420'000.
This, lowballing to my limits, would be ritual God's multiplier.

Speaking about Broly movie, so about all of dbs after bog, vegeta (equal to Goku) as ssj dominates broly, then broly rages out with that oozaru thing, so it is a x10, and vegeta (successively Goku too), using God returns to dominate him.
Let's say that broly got more than a x10 just for a small rage boost, that's ok . So :

Goku/vegeta = 1
Ssj =50
Broly = 40
Oozaru power, rage = 450 to 800
Goku/ vegeta God = 500 to 1000

Then broly goes for other rage boosts an things changes again, but in the part that matters in this discussion it is like that
I see. I mean it makes sense, so why not? To be honest though, I recently changed my SSJ4's multiplier from 500 to 1000. There is also the "unleashed potential" factro about the form, that many seem to forget. Rapid growth in power may require a lesser multiplier, with the results still being visible.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:00 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:40 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:33 am
Obviously, I'm now explaining why I say what I say :
Let's start from ritual God :
As I said, it is >>ssj3 fusion, because Goku said that he couldn't beat beerus not even fusing after fighting him only on king kai's planet.
So, let's lowball and use the multiplier from vados in this explaining : vegetto is (Goku + vegeta) x20-190 but, for a better comprehension of that, we know,from dbz that metamorphosis fusion gives birth to a fighter surely stronger than his part's ssj version , and at that time vegetto >>>gogeta.
So, always lowballing, if ssj is x50 , base gogeta is at least x60, and, with vadoses formula vegetto is at least (Goku + vegeta) x40.
So, Lowballing :
Goku =1
Vegetto = 2 x40 = 80
Ssj3 = 24'000
And we know that this vegetto isn't enough to beat bod beerus on king kai's planet.
Lowballing, let's say that beerus was at his 5% there, and put it at 35'000 in this scale. Too strong for even a ssj3 version of vegetto.
God Goku was 60% of beerus, so 35'000 x12 = 420'000.
This, lowballing to my limits, would be ritual God's multiplier.

Speaking about Broly movie, so about all of dbs after bog, vegeta (equal to Goku) as ssj dominates broly, then broly rages out with that oozaru thing, so it is a x10, and vegeta (successively Goku too), using God returns to dominate him.
Let's say that broly got more than a x10 just for a small rage boost, that's ok . So :

Goku/vegeta = 1
Ssj =50
Broly = 40
Oozaru power, rage = 450 to 800
Goku/ vegeta God = 500 to 1000

Then broly goes for other rage boosts an things changes again, but in the part that matters in this discussion it is like that
I see. I mean it makes sense, so why not? To be honest though, I recently changed my SSJ4's multiplier from 500 to 1000. There is also the "unleashed potential" factro about the form, that many seem to forget. Rapid growth in power may require a lesser multiplier, with the results still being visible.
For ssj4 change again please, it's horribly wrong.
In gt ssj4 is x80/x100 ssj3 following gt perfect files, while in series in which it didn't appear we can scale it from ssj vegetto as a guide says.
Utilizing my previous numbers, in dbs a ssj4 would be 4'000 , being 10x ssj3. A bit less than ssj vegetto but still a lot (damn, I noticed now that my previous numbers are wrong due to a distraction error, but the reasoning is still there.
Correcting :
Ssj3 vegetto ( bog) = 32'000
Beerus (bog, 5%) = 45'000
Goku God = 540'000

Just wanted to correct because I like to be precise on this.
Aaanyway, the main point is : no way ssj4 Is x500 or x1000 ,no way at all in no universe or continuity. Categorically wrong thing.
Uh, and ssj4fp is just 10 times over base ssj4
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:00 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:40 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:33 am
Obviously, I'm now explaining why I say what I say :
Let's start from ritual God :
As I said, it is >>ssj3 fusion, because Goku said that he couldn't beat beerus not even fusing after fighting him only on king kai's planet.
So, let's lowball and use the multiplier from vados in this explaining : vegetto is (Goku + vegeta) x20-190 but, for a better comprehension of that, we know,from dbz that metamorphosis fusion gives birth to a fighter surely stronger than his part's ssj version , and at that time vegetto >>>gogeta.
So, always lowballing, if ssj is x50 , base gogeta is at least x60, and, with vadoses formula vegetto is at least (Goku + vegeta) x40.
So, Lowballing :
Goku =1
Vegetto = 2 x40 = 80
Ssj3 = 24'000
And we know that this vegetto isn't enough to beat bod beerus on king kai's planet.
Lowballing, let's say that beerus was at his 5% there, and put it at 35'000 in this scale. Too strong for even a ssj3 version of vegetto.
God Goku was 60% of beerus, so 35'000 x12 = 420'000.
This, lowballing to my limits, would be ritual God's multiplier.

Speaking about Broly movie, so about all of dbs after bog, vegeta (equal to Goku) as ssj dominates broly, then broly rages out with that oozaru thing, so it is a x10, and vegeta (successively Goku too), using God returns to dominate him.
Let's say that broly got more than a x10 just for a small rage boost, that's ok . So :

Goku/vegeta = 1
Ssj =50
Broly = 40
Oozaru power, rage = 450 to 800
Goku/ vegeta God = 500 to 1000

Then broly goes for other rage boosts an things changes again, but in the part that matters in this discussion it is like that
I see. I mean it makes sense, so why not? To be honest though, I recently changed my SSJ4's multiplier from 500 to 1000. There is also the "unleashed potential" factro about the form, that many seem to forget. Rapid growth in power may require a lesser multiplier, with the results still being visible.
For ssj4 change again please, it's horribly wrong.
In gt ssj4 is x80/x100 ssj3 following gt perfect files, while in series in which it didn't appear we can scale it from ssj vegetto as a guide says.
Utilizing my previous numbers, in dbs a ssj4 would be 4'000 , being 10x ssj3. A bit less than ssj vegetto but still a lot (damn, I noticed now that my previous numbers are wrong due to a distraction error, but the reasoning is still there.
Correcting :
Ssj3 vegetto ( bog) = 32'000
Beerus (bog, 5%) = 45'000
Goku God = 540'000

Just wanted to correct because I like to be precise on this.
Aaanyway, the main point is : no way ssj4 Is x500 or x1000 ,no way at all in no universe or continuity. Categorically wrong thing.
Uh, and ssj4fp is just 10 times over base ssj4
Let us disagree on the SSJ4 multiplier. Granted. But why would UFP SSJ4 would be ×10 times stronger? How? The way the form is achieved is through energy donation. It is the same with the failed God ritual. The individuals who donate their power are significantly weaker.

Syn Shenron was roughly on par with SSJ4 Goku. He even tanked a ×10 Kamehameha. But when Goku went UFP, he overpowered him. If he got 10 times stronger, then Syn shouldn't have survived, considering what I said before.

Then, wehn Syn turned into Omega, we know for a fact that he became 10 times stronger as well. But wouldn't that make him equal to UFP Goku? Why didn't Goku resort on that form to defeat him? Because when he triee, he failed. Later on, SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta, get blown away by Omega's power. If I highball, UFP SSJ4 is nearly twice as strong as SSJ4.

Not to mention the simple fact that SSJ4 is the "ultimate form", so it makes no sense that it required a further powered-up version to deal with the enemy.

UFP SSJ4 = 2×SSJ4

UFP Goku had the same results against Omega, as Goku and Vegeta had on their base SSJ4s.

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, let's go to the official unnoficial power levels discussion thread. It is a subject more suitable for there. :thumbup:
My posts will speak for myself! :)

SSJgogeto
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:26 am

- Super Saiyan Broly (Movie Eight) vs. 2nd Form Cell - Cell
- Super Saiyan Broly (Movie Ten) vs. Super Saiyan Vegeta (Boo arc) - Vegeta

User avatar
Dragon Ball Gus
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1001
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:51 pm
Location: Planet Sadla

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:14 am

New Hypothetical Battle
Ultimate Trunhan (Future Trunks and [Present] Gohan potara fusion) vs SSJ2 Kefla (and yes, I'm calling her Kefla again because I pretty much gave up on calling her Kafla)
Caulifla best girl! :)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:14 am
New Hypothetical Battle
Ultimate Trunhan (Future Trunks and [Present] Gohan potara fusion) vs SSJ2 Kefla (and yes, I'm calling her Kefla again because I pretty much gave up on calling her Kafla)
If we go by manga data, then Trunhan dominates the fight. Especially in a state like the "Ultimate" one. A form which itself may be a mutation of SSJ2 but is is greately superior.

By Anime data, Future Trunks in regular SSJ2 should be stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla and Ultimate Gohan should be on par with controlled LSSJ2 Kale. This fight would be a closer match-up. Kefla would take this one. With mid-high difficulty.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:00 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:40 am


I see. I mean it makes sense, so why not? To be honest though, I recently changed my SSJ4's multiplier from 500 to 1000. There is also the "unleashed potential" factro about the form, that many seem to forget. Rapid growth in power may require a lesser multiplier, with the results still being visible.
For ssj4 change again please, it's horribly wrong.
In gt ssj4 is x80/x100 ssj3 following gt perfect files, while in series in which it didn't appear we can scale it from ssj vegetto as a guide says.
Utilizing my previous numbers, in dbs a ssj4 would be 4'000 , being 10x ssj3. A bit less than ssj vegetto but still a lot (damn, I noticed now that my previous numbers are wrong due to a distraction error, but the reasoning is still there.
Correcting :
Ssj3 vegetto ( bog) = 32'000
Beerus (bog, 5%) = 45'000
Goku God = 540'000

Just wanted to correct because I like to be precise on this.
Aaanyway, the main point is : no way ssj4 Is x500 or x1000 ,no way at all in no universe or continuity. Categorically wrong thing.
Uh, and ssj4fp is just 10 times over base ssj4
Let us disagree on the SSJ4 multiplier. Granted. But why would UFP SSJ4 would be ×10 times stronger? How? The way the form is achieved is through energy donation. It is the same with the failed God ritual. The individuals who donate their power are significantly weaker.

Syn Shenron was roughly on par with SSJ4 Goku. He even tanked a ×10 Kamehameha. But when Goku went UFP, he overpowered him. If he got 10 times stronger, then Syn shouldn't have survived, considering what I said before.

Then, wehn Syn turned into Omega, we know for a fact that he became 10 times stronger as well. But wouldn't that make him equal to UFP Goku? Why didn't Goku resort on that form to defeat him? Because when he triee, he failed. Later on, SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta, get blown away by Omega's power. If I highball, UFP SSJ4 is nearly twice as strong as SSJ4.

Not to mention the simple fact that SSJ4 is the "ultimate form", so it makes no sense that it required a further powered-up version to deal with the enemy.

UFP SSJ4 = 2×SSJ4

UFP Goku had the same results against Omega, as Goku and Vegeta had on their base SSJ4s.

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, let's go to the official unnoficial power levels discussion thread. It is a subject more suitable for there. :thumbup:
Syn tanked everything from an injuried and blind ssj4 Goku, and thats fine.
Goku began to be on par with him olny after being cured.
For ssj4fp, it is x10 ssj4 becuse of the fact that Goku uses it against omega, and goten says that he can't tell who's stronger. Being omega x10 Sun, and any = base ssj4, that means only that ssj4fp is x10 basic ssj4.
For the multiplier, there's not being agree or not : it is just how I say. That is the only viable and sensed way to scale it, others are born from misconceptions and crappy fan theories based on nothing but wrong thinkings.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:03 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:00 am


For ssj4 change again please, it's horribly wrong.
In gt ssj4 is x80/x100 ssj3 following gt perfect files, while in series in which it didn't appear we can scale it from ssj vegetto as a guide says.
Utilizing my previous numbers, in dbs a ssj4 would be 4'000 , being 10x ssj3. A bit less than ssj vegetto but still a lot (damn, I noticed now that my previous numbers are wrong due to a distraction error, but the reasoning is still there.
Correcting :
Ssj3 vegetto ( bog) = 32'000
Beerus (bog, 5%) = 45'000
Goku God = 540'000

Just wanted to correct because I like to be precise on this.
Aaanyway, the main point is : no way ssj4 Is x500 or x1000 ,no way at all in no universe or continuity. Categorically wrong thing.
Uh, and ssj4fp is just 10 times over base ssj4
Let us disagree on the SSJ4 multiplier. Granted. But why would UFP SSJ4 would be ×10 times stronger? How? The way the form is achieved is through energy donation. It is the same with the failed God ritual. The individuals who donate their power are significantly weaker.

Syn Shenron was roughly on par with SSJ4 Goku. He even tanked a ×10 Kamehameha. But when Goku went UFP, he overpowered him. If he got 10 times stronger, then Syn shouldn't have survived, considering what I said before.

Then, wehn Syn turned into Omega, we know for a fact that he became 10 times stronger as well. But wouldn't that make him equal to UFP Goku? Why didn't Goku resort on that form to defeat him? Because when he triee, he failed. Later on, SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta, get blown away by Omega's power. If I highball, UFP SSJ4 is nearly twice as strong as SSJ4.

Not to mention the simple fact that SSJ4 is the "ultimate form", so it makes no sense that it required a further powered-up version to deal with the enemy.

UFP SSJ4 = 2×SSJ4

UFP Goku had the same results against Omega, as Goku and Vegeta had on their base SSJ4s.

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, let's go to the official unnoficial power levels discussion thread. It is a subject more suitable for there. :thumbup:
Syn tanked everything from an injuried and blind ssj4 Goku, and thats fine.
Goku began to be on par with him olny after being cured.
For ssj4fp, it is x10 ssj4 becuse of the fact that Goku uses it against omega, and goten says that he can't tell who's stronger. Being omega x10 Sun, and any = base ssj4, that means only that ssj4fp is x10 basic ssj4.
For the multiplier, there's not being agree or not : it is just how I say. That is the only viable and sensed way to scale it, others are born from misconceptions and crappy fan theories based on nothing but wrong thinkings.
I understand your reasoning about fan theories with no actual data. Which is why I am trying to support my claims too. I try to avoid conversations with no meaning.

Anyway, I just rewatched the entire fight. A blind SSJ4 Goku can't exert all of his power, despite retaining his skills, which where the ones responsible for him surviving the original clash with Syn. Syn has the advantage for that very reason. We can assume that at full power, SSJ4 Goku (fully recovered) should be on par with him, if not weaker.

Then, Syn goes full strength against a recovering SSJ4 Goku with the latter taking Shenron by suprise and firing a ×10 Kamehameha on him. Note that Goku is now nearly his maximum strength as he clearly states beforehand that Syn's power is on a league of it's own, suggesting that even in his full power, he is still exhausted and incapablebof using his 100%. Syn tanks the Kamehameha, much to Goku's suprise (who is nearly half as strong as Syn) with the Shadow Dragon proceeding in a beatdown. If anything, DB has taught us that if you twice as strong as your enemy, you can probably tank his attacks.

Goku even reverts to Base due to the damage that he sustained. Then the company comes in to save the day. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donate their power to Goku, while Majuub buys some time against Syn. Their first attempt to give him power fails, but they eventually do it. While donating their energy, Gohan states at one point that Goku had reached his full power, suggesting that as a SSJ4 Goku wasn't using his full base power against Syn, nicely tying with my initial claims. Then Goku states that he had to push himself even further, in order to beat Syn, as he tanked the Kamehameha and Goku himself wanted to surpass his limits again.

Prior to unveiling his UFP SSJ4, either Trunks or Goten, comments that Goku "had taken his max power as a SSJ4 and extended it further". The way they tell this, suggest a several times increase at most, as Goku himself was unsure of how far he would go. But back to the proof, when UFP shows up, Syn questions Goku's power. It should be noted that if his SSJ4 with which he faced Syn was 50% of what he could do on the same form, by applying my 2× for UFP, Syn is facing a Goku who is 4 times stronger than before. Goku is now twice as strong as Syn. His abilities are also being used to the max, despite being blind, with allnof his power having been restored.

Now Syn gets a ×10 Kamehameha in the face, with Goku (as I stated) being already stronger. The Shadow Dragon is very resilient though. He states that he underestimated Goku, however that wouldn't mean that he could fight him as a UFP while in his "Syn" form. That is why he eats the Dragon Balls in order to gain an increase in power and become Omega. When Chi Chi asks Gohan the question of the day "who is stronger", Gohan replies "their levels are too close together. This can be interpreted in many ways. What I get from it is that with Goku and Omega so near in terms of distance, is is difficult to distinguish each one's power separately. We have seen it before. 1 great power that eclipses everything around it.

Besides, Gohan answers Chi Chi's question prior her asking. He states when observing Omega "his power is beyond comparison", meaning that even Goku wouldn't be at his level. If UFP offered a ×10 increase on top of maximum powered SSJ4, then no one should be so intimidated and suprised by Omega's strentgh. Not even Goku. Then Omega states "I am ten times greater than before....perhaps even more". We always thought of Omega being 10× Syn, so the second part of his statement may be a bluff, as he tried to use phsychological warfare against Goku.

Omega takes some hits from Goku, perhaps due to him not paying much attention and with Goku going all-out, but once Omega gets serious, the gap in power is visible. UFP Goku should be nearly 2 times as strong as Syn, so Omega is 5 times stronger. More than enough to tank all of Goku's attacks and even when Goku fires off a regular Kamehameha followed by a Dragon Fist, Omega actually repels the attacks for a few seconds, but knowing the great power of the Dragon Fist even he is defeated by it.

Goku sees that everything is useless against Omega and tries to blow himself up with the Dragon. For no reason, would Goku perform like this, or would sort out to such techniques if it were for him to be equal with Omega. Omega was many times over a level which Goku thought off as very difficult and dangerous to reach, beyond his limits while in the ultimate saiyan transformation.

Vegeta comes into play and it is safe to assume that Goku is at max strength, but has lost his UFP state, as he was constantly wasting energy against Omega. Energy that was donated to him and that he could not recover. The two are perfectly equals in max power and this also is evident as to why Vegeta stated that they had no chance against Omega even if they both achieved SSJ4. the power difference is practically the same with the one Omega had with UFP Goku. Because UFP Goku=2× SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Goku equals SSJ4 Vegeta, then the duo would perform similarly. They did. While fighting with Omega, they did no better than UFP Goku. Statements such as "our dads are struggling even as SSJ4s", "inconceivable, he is so powerful (something like that) against 2 SSJ4s" showcase this. Omega is as I have said more than twice more powerful than the sum of Goku's and Vegeta's power. Which is why they were desperate for fusion etc.

That is my reasoning about UFP. I went a little off-topic, but I suppose that there is nothing left for me to say. The real applause goes to Hercule as he sustained (for a human) all the attacks that Omega shrugged at him and he even took a punch in the guts by Omega and survived.... :shock:
Last edited by Grand Marshal 1 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Nokra » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:45 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:55 am
Nokra wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:56 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:41 pm


Perhaps. Still, even a hundred times of SSJ3 should be around mid-SSJB level. I guess that without us getting Base Gogeta's fighting performance against C-type Broly, we can't really have a clear view on the subject.

Nonetheless, for all those who say that Kefla can be stronger than Broly, just seeing Gogeta's reaction to Broly's power means a lot. I mean, come on....

Even SSJ3 Kefla would be stomped by Full Power SSJ Broly. That said, Blue Vegito or Gogeta would godstomp her. It isn't weird that even in SDBH Merged Zamasu toyed with SSJ2 Kefla.
Kefla would dominate any zamsu what do u mean?
I do not question her power, she is on a different level afterall, due to being a fused being.

However, with what we were presented with, Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc should be at the level of either 1st UIO Goku, or the Spirit Bomb. I am kinda lowballing Vegito here, however, Kefla as a SSJ2 was near that power and she was overwhelmed by 2nd UIO Goku, exactly for the reason that the Saiyan surpassed that power.

Ultimately, although Merged Zamasu in his giant, corrupted form is said to not be able to keep up with Vegito's speed (something thoroughly discussed in the DBS Strength Discussion Thread), he is somewhere near his power.

Do SSJ2 Kefla from the ToP should fight on par with Merged Zamasu from the Future Trunks arc. Notice how I indicate that. She could be slightly more powerful, but she would be incapable of killing him.

Ultimately, my last point is that SDBH wanted to keep it somewhat relevant, having "resurrected" Merged Zamasu above SSJ2 Kefla's level. Notbto mention the large span of time that passed since the ToP for Caulifla and Kale to get stronger.
Yeah I don't think using heroes as a basis for your argument works sis. Everyone in heroes is stronger than their main continuity counterparts and that includes zamasu. he can fight on par with jiren in heroes so that shows he is suppose to be much stronger in heroes compared to the dbs anime which is what i was referring to. I'm pretty sure vegito from the black arc is only about as strong as ssbkk20 goku. and kefla dominated ssbkk20 goku so she would also dominate vegito and zamasu. This is coming from a huge vegito and zamasu fan too so you can't say I'm being fanboy.

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:59 pm

Nokra wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:45 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:55 am
Nokra wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:56 pm


Kefla would dominate any zamsu what do u mean?
I do not question her power, she is on a different level afterall, due to being a fused being.

However, with what we were presented with, Vegito Blue from the Future Trunks Arc should be at the level of either 1st UIO Goku, or the Spirit Bomb. I am kinda lowballing Vegito here, however, Kefla as a SSJ2 was near that power and she was overwhelmed by 2nd UIO Goku, exactly for the reason that the Saiyan surpassed that power.

Ultimately, although Merged Zamasu in his giant, corrupted form is said to not be able to keep up with Vegito's speed (something thoroughly discussed in the DBS Strength Discussion Thread), he is somewhere near his power.

Do SSJ2 Kefla from the ToP should fight on par with Merged Zamasu from the Future Trunks arc. Notice how I indicate that. She could be slightly more powerful, but she would be incapable of killing him.

Ultimately, my last point is that SDBH wanted to keep it somewhat relevant, having "resurrected" Merged Zamasu above SSJ2 Kefla's level. Notbto mention the large span of time that passed since the ToP for Caulifla and Kale to get stronger.
Yeah I don't think using heroes as a basis for your argument works sis. Everyone in heroes is stronger than their main continuity counterparts and that includes zamasu. he can fight on par with jiren in heroes so that shows he is suppose to be much stronger in heroes compared to the dbs anime which is what i was referring to. I'm pretty sure vegito from the black arc is only about as strong as ssbkk20 goku. and kefla dominated ssbkk20 goku so she would also dominate vegito and zamasu. This is coming from a huge vegito and zamasu fan too so you can't say I'm being fanboy.
The last part was an extra. Just to make a point. I will never use Heroes as a reliable source, lol.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:44 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:03 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:41 am


Let us disagree on the SSJ4 multiplier. Granted. But why would UFP SSJ4 would be ×10 times stronger? How? The way the form is achieved is through energy donation. It is the same with the failed God ritual. The individuals who donate their power are significantly weaker.

Syn Shenron was roughly on par with SSJ4 Goku. He even tanked a ×10 Kamehameha. But when Goku went UFP, he overpowered him. If he got 10 times stronger, then Syn shouldn't have survived, considering what I said before.

Then, wehn Syn turned into Omega, we know for a fact that he became 10 times stronger as well. But wouldn't that make him equal to UFP Goku? Why didn't Goku resort on that form to defeat him? Because when he triee, he failed. Later on, SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta, get blown away by Omega's power. If I highball, UFP SSJ4 is nearly twice as strong as SSJ4.

Not to mention the simple fact that SSJ4 is the "ultimate form", so it makes no sense that it required a further powered-up version to deal with the enemy.

UFP SSJ4 = 2×SSJ4

UFP Goku had the same results against Omega, as Goku and Vegeta had on their base SSJ4s.

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, let's go to the official unnoficial power levels discussion thread. It is a subject more suitable for there. :thumbup:
Syn tanked everything from an injuried and blind ssj4 Goku, and thats fine.
Goku began to be on par with him olny after being cured.
For ssj4fp, it is x10 ssj4 becuse of the fact that Goku uses it against omega, and goten says that he can't tell who's stronger. Being omega x10 Sun, and any = base ssj4, that means only that ssj4fp is x10 basic ssj4.
For the multiplier, there's not being agree or not : it is just how I say. That is the only viable and sensed way to scale it, others are born from misconceptions and crappy fan theories based on nothing but wrong thinkings.
I understand your reasoning about fan theories with no actual data. Which is why I am trying to support my claims too. I try to avoid conversations with no meaning.

Anyway, I just rewatched the entire fight. A blind SSJ4 Goku can't exert all of his power, despite retaining his skills, which where the ones responsible for him surviving the original clash with Syn. Syn has the advantage for that very reason. We can assume that at full power, SSJ4 Goku (fully recovered) should be on par with him, if not weaker.

Then, Syn goes full strength against a recovering SSJ4 Goku with the latter taking Shenron by suprise and firing a ×10 Kamehameha on him. Note that Goku is now nearly his maximum strength as he clearly states beforehand that Syn's power is on a league of it's own, suggesting that even in his full power, he is still exhausted and incapablebof using his 100%. Syn tanks the Kamehameha, much to Goku's suprise (who is nearly half as strong as Syn) with the Shadow Dragon proceeding in a beatdown. If anything, DB has taught us that if you twice as strong as your enemy, you can probably tank his attacks.

Goku even reverts to Base due to the damage that he sustained. Then the company comes in to save the day. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donate their power to Goku, while Majuub buys some time against Syn. Their first attempt to give him power fails, but they eventually do it. While donating their energy, Gohan states at one point that Goku had reached his full power, suggesting that as a SSJ4 Goku wasn't using his full base power against Syn, nicely tying with my initial claims. Then Goku states that he had to push himself even further, in order to beat Syn, as he tanked the Kamehameha and Goku himself wanted to surpass his limits again.

Prior to unveiling his UFP SSJ4, either Trunks or Goten, comments that Goku "had taken his max power as a SSJ4 and extended it further". The way they tell this, suggest a several times increase at most, as Goku himself was unsure of how far he would go. But back to the proof, when UFP shows up, Syn questions Goku's power. It should be noted that if his SSJ4 with which he faced Syn was 50% of what he could do on the same form, by applying my 2× for UFP, Syn is facing a Goku who is 4 times stronger than before. Goku is now twice as strong as Syn. His abilities are also being used to the max, despite being blind, with allnof his power having been restored.

Now Syn gets a ×10 Kamehameha in the face, with Goku (as I stated) being already stronger. The Shadow Dragon is very resilient though. He states that he underestimated Goku, however that wouldn't mean that he could fight him as a UFP while in his "Syn" form. That is why he eats the Dragon Balls in order to gain an increase in power and become Omega. When Chi Chi asks Gohan the question of the day "who is stronger", Gohan replies "their levels are too close together. This can be interpreted in many ways. What I get from it is that with Goku and Omega so near in terms of distance, is is difficult to distinguish each one's power separately. We have seen it before. 1 great power that eclipses everything around it.

Besides, Gohan answers Chi Chi's question prior her asking. He states when observing Omega "his power is beyond comparison", meaning that even Goku wouldn't be at his level. If UFP offered a ×10 increase on top of maximum powered SSJ4, then no one should be so intimidated and suprised by Omega's strentgh. Not even Goku. Then Omega states "I am ten times greater than before....perhaps even more". We always thought of Omega being 10× Syn, so the second part of his statement may be a bluff, as he tried to use phsychological warfare against Goku.

Omega takes some hits from Goku, perhaps due to him not paying much attention and with Goku going all-out, but once Omega gets serious, the gap in power is visible. UFP Goku should be nearly 2 times as strong as Syn, so Omega is 5 times stronger. More than enough to tank all of Goku's attacks and even when Goku fires off a regular Kamehameha followed by a Dragon Fist, Omega actually repels the attacks for a few seconds, but knowing the great power of the Dragon Fist even he is defeated by it.

Goku sees that everything is useless against Omega and tries to blow himself up with the Dragon. For no reason, would Goku perform like this, or would sort out to such techniques if it were for him to be equal with Omega. Omega was many times over a level which Goku thought off as very difficult and dangerous to reach, beyond his limits while in the ultimate saiyan transformation.

Vegeta comes into play and it is safe to assume that Goku is at max strength, but has lost his UFP state, as he was constantly wasting energy against Omega. Energy that was donated to him and that he could not recover. The two are perfectly equals in max power and this also is evident as to why Vegeta stated that they had no chance against Omega even if they both achieved SSJ4. the power difference is practically the same with the one Omega had with UFP Goku. Because UFP Goku=2× SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Goku equals SSJ4 Vegeta, then the duo would perform similarly. They did. While fighting with Omega, they did no better than UFP Goku. Statements such as "our dads are struggling even as SSJ4s", "inconceivable, he is so powerful (something like that) against 2 SSJ4s" showcase this. Omega is as I have said more than twice more powerful than the sum of Goku's and Vegeta's power. Which is why they were desperate for fusion etc.

That is my reasoning about UFP. I went a little off-topic, but I suppose that there is nothing left for me to say. The real applause goes to Hercule as he sustained (for a human) all the attacks that Omega shrugged at him and he even took a punch in the guts by Omega and survived.... :shock:
Start from the bottom :
Gt perfect files tells simply that syn= Goku ssj4=vegeta ssj4
Omega is x10 syn, or maybe more
Goku ssj4 fp appears 2 times, one blind vs syn the other healed, savings omega.
So, we have :

Omega = Goku ssj4fp(healed)>>>Goku ssj4fp(post nuova fight, blind) >>syn shenron>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight)>=nuova shenron >Goku ssh4 (nuova fight, blind)>>>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight, blind, arms frozen)>ize shenron

Plus, going by " he tanked a kamehameha" you are going nowhere, in gt durability is clearly superior to the power level of the character in analysis.
That x2 thing you say it is true, but it really means nothing here. Ssj4fp being x2 ssj4 is your headcanon and only that, you can't fight my proofs with sterile claims from nothing but your mind. I have proofs for what I say, official proofs, you don't.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:28 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:44 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:03 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:30 pm


Syn tanked everything from an injuried and blind ssj4 Goku, and thats fine.
Goku began to be on par with him olny after being cured.
For ssj4fp, it is x10 ssj4 becuse of the fact that Goku uses it against omega, and goten says that he can't tell who's stronger. Being omega x10 Sun, and any = base ssj4, that means only that ssj4fp is x10 basic ssj4.
For the multiplier, there's not being agree or not : it is just how I say. That is the only viable and sensed way to scale it, others are born from misconceptions and crappy fan theories based on nothing but wrong thinkings.
I understand your reasoning about fan theories with no actual data. Which is why I am trying to support my claims too. I try to avoid conversations with no meaning.

Anyway, I just rewatched the entire fight. A blind SSJ4 Goku can't exert all of his power, despite retaining his skills, which where the ones responsible for him surviving the original clash with Syn. Syn has the advantage for that very reason. We can assume that at full power, SSJ4 Goku (fully recovered) should be on par with him, if not weaker.

Then, Syn goes full strength against a recovering SSJ4 Goku with the latter taking Shenron by suprise and firing a ×10 Kamehameha on him. Note that Goku is now nearly his maximum strength as he clearly states beforehand that Syn's power is on a league of it's own, suggesting that even in his full power, he is still exhausted and incapablebof using his 100%. Syn tanks the Kamehameha, much to Goku's suprise (who is nearly half as strong as Syn) with the Shadow Dragon proceeding in a beatdown. If anything, DB has taught us that if you twice as strong as your enemy, you can probably tank his attacks.

Goku even reverts to Base due to the damage that he sustained. Then the company comes in to save the day. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donate their power to Goku, while Majuub buys some time against Syn. Their first attempt to give him power fails, but they eventually do it. While donating their energy, Gohan states at one point that Goku had reached his full power, suggesting that as a SSJ4 Goku wasn't using his full base power against Syn, nicely tying with my initial claims. Then Goku states that he had to push himself even further, in order to beat Syn, as he tanked the Kamehameha and Goku himself wanted to surpass his limits again.

Prior to unveiling his UFP SSJ4, either Trunks or Goten, comments that Goku "had taken his max power as a SSJ4 and extended it further". The way they tell this, suggest a several times increase at most, as Goku himself was unsure of how far he would go. But back to the proof, when UFP shows up, Syn questions Goku's power. It should be noted that if his SSJ4 with which he faced Syn was 50% of what he could do on the same form, by applying my 2× for UFP, Syn is facing a Goku who is 4 times stronger than before. Goku is now twice as strong as Syn. His abilities are also being used to the max, despite being blind, with allnof his power having been restored.

Now Syn gets a ×10 Kamehameha in the face, with Goku (as I stated) being already stronger. The Shadow Dragon is very resilient though. He states that he underestimated Goku, however that wouldn't mean that he could fight him as a UFP while in his "Syn" form. That is why he eats the Dragon Balls in order to gain an increase in power and become Omega. When Chi Chi asks Gohan the question of the day "who is stronger", Gohan replies "their levels are too close together. This can be interpreted in many ways. What I get from it is that with Goku and Omega so near in terms of distance, is is difficult to distinguish each one's power separately. We have seen it before. 1 great power that eclipses everything around it.

Besides, Gohan answers Chi Chi's question prior her asking. He states when observing Omega "his power is beyond comparison", meaning that even Goku wouldn't be at his level. If UFP offered a ×10 increase on top of maximum powered SSJ4, then no one should be so intimidated and suprised by Omega's strentgh. Not even Goku. Then Omega states "I am ten times greater than before....perhaps even more". We always thought of Omega being 10× Syn, so the second part of his statement may be a bluff, as he tried to use phsychological warfare against Goku.

Omega takes some hits from Goku, perhaps due to him not paying much attention and with Goku going all-out, but once Omega gets serious, the gap in power is visible. UFP Goku should be nearly 2 times as strong as Syn, so Omega is 5 times stronger. More than enough to tank all of Goku's attacks and even when Goku fires off a regular Kamehameha followed by a Dragon Fist, Omega actually repels the attacks for a few seconds, but knowing the great power of the Dragon Fist even he is defeated by it.

Goku sees that everything is useless against Omega and tries to blow himself up with the Dragon. For no reason, would Goku perform like this, or would sort out to such techniques if it were for him to be equal with Omega. Omega was many times over a level which Goku thought off as very difficult and dangerous to reach, beyond his limits while in the ultimate saiyan transformation.

Vegeta comes into play and it is safe to assume that Goku is at max strength, but has lost his UFP state, as he was constantly wasting energy against Omega. Energy that was donated to him and that he could not recover. The two are perfectly equals in max power and this also is evident as to why Vegeta stated that they had no chance against Omega even if they both achieved SSJ4. the power difference is practically the same with the one Omega had with UFP Goku. Because UFP Goku=2× SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Goku equals SSJ4 Vegeta, then the duo would perform similarly. They did. While fighting with Omega, they did no better than UFP Goku. Statements such as "our dads are struggling even as SSJ4s", "inconceivable, he is so powerful (something like that) against 2 SSJ4s" showcase this. Omega is as I have said more than twice more powerful than the sum of Goku's and Vegeta's power. Which is why they were desperate for fusion etc.

That is my reasoning about UFP. I went a little off-topic, but I suppose that there is nothing left for me to say. The real applause goes to Hercule as he sustained (for a human) all the attacks that Omega shrugged at him and he even took a punch in the guts by Omega and survived.... :shock:
Start from the bottom :
Gt perfect files tells simply that syn= Goku ssj4=vegeta ssj4
Omega is x10 syn, or maybe more
Goku ssj4 fp appears 2 times, one blind vs syn the other healed, savings omega.
So, we have :

Omega = Goku ssj4fp(healed)>>>Goku ssj4fp(post nuova fight, blind) >>syn shenron>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight)>=nuova shenron >Goku ssh4 (nuova fight, blind)>>>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight, blind, arms frozen)>ize shenron

Plus, going by " he tanked a kamehameha" you are going nowhere, in gt durability is clearly superior to the power level of the character in analysis.
That x2 thing you say it is true, but it really means nothing here. Ssj4fp being x2 ssj4 is your headcanon and only that, you can't fight my proofs with sterile claims from nothing but your mind. I have proofs for what I say, official proofs, you don't.
I am welcome to official data, but wasn't only Omega's power in comparison to Syn's what the Perfect Files described? I mean, we didn't get any other info from there regarding our topic. I agree on Omega being 10× Syn. The rest are up to debate. However, I clearly tried to explain it by using almost no headcannon here. It is only made up of feats and statements (plus what the Perfect Files described) with me only adding the number to UFP, which makes sense for everything else that happened.

So we got: Omega>>>>>UFP SSJ4 Goku (even after receiving his vision, which didn't change his power, but rather his combat effectiveness)=SSJ4 Goku & SSJ4 Vegeta (both at max strength with a healed Goku)>>Syn Shenron (full power)>=SSJ4 Goku (max strength, healed, however still incapable of inflict great damage to Syn so he sorted in using UFP instead)>>SSJ4 Goku (post Nuova fight, Syn Shenron fight, blind, but still at max strength)>=Nuova Shenron (as Vegeta fought again with Nuova and despite the latter holding back, Vegeta was very sure about facing him).

Each arrow means how many times stronger the one is compared to the other, meaning that 5 ">" mean 5 times stronger and 2 ">" two times stronger. If UFP Goku was equal to Omega, then with SSJ4 Vegeta arriving, they wouldn't be so desperate with fusion. They had no other option they said, that they had absolutely no chance. It is safe to say that Omega is definitely stronger than UFP Goku. All the statements while Goku was in UFP reveal that. "His power is beyond comparion, "I have gained an amazing power-up", "this new form will put me on the top of all Shadow Dragons" etc.

Omega was meant to be the endgame. No one would have the power to face him individually. Fusion was needed and then even more individuals (in an essence) to gather energy for the Spirit Bomb.

Lastly UFP appeared only once against Omega. He transformed to fight Syn, overpowering him (blindness didn't matter anymore as when becoming UFP he Gohan stated that Goku had regained his full strength) but then Syn turned into Omega and Goku continued the fight untill he regained his sight. As I said with his power restored, he was now using it more effectively. He didn't get stronger. By the time Vegeta arrived to the scene, Goku had lost his UFP form.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

User avatar
p-hyvo
Regular
Posts: 651
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Contact:

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:10 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:28 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:44 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:03 pm


I understand your reasoning about fan theories with no actual data. Which is why I am trying to support my claims too. I try to avoid conversations with no meaning.

Anyway, I just rewatched the entire fight. A blind SSJ4 Goku can't exert all of his power, despite retaining his skills, which where the ones responsible for him surviving the original clash with Syn. Syn has the advantage for that very reason. We can assume that at full power, SSJ4 Goku (fully recovered) should be on par with him, if not weaker.

Then, Syn goes full strength against a recovering SSJ4 Goku with the latter taking Shenron by suprise and firing a ×10 Kamehameha on him. Note that Goku is now nearly his maximum strength as he clearly states beforehand that Syn's power is on a league of it's own, suggesting that even in his full power, he is still exhausted and incapablebof using his 100%. Syn tanks the Kamehameha, much to Goku's suprise (who is nearly half as strong as Syn) with the Shadow Dragon proceeding in a beatdown. If anything, DB has taught us that if you twice as strong as your enemy, you can probably tank his attacks.

Goku even reverts to Base due to the damage that he sustained. Then the company comes in to save the day. Gohan, Goten and Trunks donate their power to Goku, while Majuub buys some time against Syn. Their first attempt to give him power fails, but they eventually do it. While donating their energy, Gohan states at one point that Goku had reached his full power, suggesting that as a SSJ4 Goku wasn't using his full base power against Syn, nicely tying with my initial claims. Then Goku states that he had to push himself even further, in order to beat Syn, as he tanked the Kamehameha and Goku himself wanted to surpass his limits again.

Prior to unveiling his UFP SSJ4, either Trunks or Goten, comments that Goku "had taken his max power as a SSJ4 and extended it further". The way they tell this, suggest a several times increase at most, as Goku himself was unsure of how far he would go. But back to the proof, when UFP shows up, Syn questions Goku's power. It should be noted that if his SSJ4 with which he faced Syn was 50% of what he could do on the same form, by applying my 2× for UFP, Syn is facing a Goku who is 4 times stronger than before. Goku is now twice as strong as Syn. His abilities are also being used to the max, despite being blind, with allnof his power having been restored.

Now Syn gets a ×10 Kamehameha in the face, with Goku (as I stated) being already stronger. The Shadow Dragon is very resilient though. He states that he underestimated Goku, however that wouldn't mean that he could fight him as a UFP while in his "Syn" form. That is why he eats the Dragon Balls in order to gain an increase in power and become Omega. When Chi Chi asks Gohan the question of the day "who is stronger", Gohan replies "their levels are too close together. This can be interpreted in many ways. What I get from it is that with Goku and Omega so near in terms of distance, is is difficult to distinguish each one's power separately. We have seen it before. 1 great power that eclipses everything around it.

Besides, Gohan answers Chi Chi's question prior her asking. He states when observing Omega "his power is beyond comparison", meaning that even Goku wouldn't be at his level. If UFP offered a ×10 increase on top of maximum powered SSJ4, then no one should be so intimidated and suprised by Omega's strentgh. Not even Goku. Then Omega states "I am ten times greater than before....perhaps even more". We always thought of Omega being 10× Syn, so the second part of his statement may be a bluff, as he tried to use phsychological warfare against Goku.

Omega takes some hits from Goku, perhaps due to him not paying much attention and with Goku going all-out, but once Omega gets serious, the gap in power is visible. UFP Goku should be nearly 2 times as strong as Syn, so Omega is 5 times stronger. More than enough to tank all of Goku's attacks and even when Goku fires off a regular Kamehameha followed by a Dragon Fist, Omega actually repels the attacks for a few seconds, but knowing the great power of the Dragon Fist even he is defeated by it.

Goku sees that everything is useless against Omega and tries to blow himself up with the Dragon. For no reason, would Goku perform like this, or would sort out to such techniques if it were for him to be equal with Omega. Omega was many times over a level which Goku thought off as very difficult and dangerous to reach, beyond his limits while in the ultimate saiyan transformation.

Vegeta comes into play and it is safe to assume that Goku is at max strength, but has lost his UFP state, as he was constantly wasting energy against Omega. Energy that was donated to him and that he could not recover. The two are perfectly equals in max power and this also is evident as to why Vegeta stated that they had no chance against Omega even if they both achieved SSJ4. the power difference is practically the same with the one Omega had with UFP Goku. Because UFP Goku=2× SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Goku equals SSJ4 Vegeta, then the duo would perform similarly. They did. While fighting with Omega, they did no better than UFP Goku. Statements such as "our dads are struggling even as SSJ4s", "inconceivable, he is so powerful (something like that) against 2 SSJ4s" showcase this. Omega is as I have said more than twice more powerful than the sum of Goku's and Vegeta's power. Which is why they were desperate for fusion etc.

That is my reasoning about UFP. I went a little off-topic, but I suppose that there is nothing left for me to say. The real applause goes to Hercule as he sustained (for a human) all the attacks that Omega shrugged at him and he even took a punch in the guts by Omega and survived.... :shock:
Start from the bottom :
Gt perfect files tells simply that syn= Goku ssj4=vegeta ssj4
Omega is x10 syn, or maybe more
Goku ssj4 fp appears 2 times, one blind vs syn the other healed, savings omega.
So, we have :

Omega = Goku ssj4fp(healed)>>>Goku ssj4fp(post nuova fight, blind) >>syn shenron>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight)>=nuova shenron >Goku ssh4 (nuova fight, blind)>>>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight, blind, arms frozen)>ize shenron

Plus, going by " he tanked a kamehameha" you are going nowhere, in gt durability is clearly superior to the power level of the character in analysis.
That x2 thing you say it is true, but it really means nothing here. Ssj4fp being x2 ssj4 is your headcanon and only that, you can't fight my proofs with sterile claims from nothing but your mind. I have proofs for what I say, official proofs, you don't.
I am welcome to official data, but wasn't only Omega's power in comparison to Syn's what the Perfect Files described? I mean, we didn't get any other info from there regarding our topic. I agree on Omega being 10× Syn. The rest are up to debate. However, I clearly tried to explain it by using almost no headcannon here. It is only made up of feats and statements (plus what the Perfect Files described) with me only adding the number to UFP, which makes sense for everything else that happened.

So we got: Omega>>>>>UFP SSJ4 Goku (even after receiving his vision, which didn't change his power, but rather his combat effectiveness)=SSJ4 Goku & SSJ4 Vegeta (both at max strength with a healed Goku)>>Syn Shenron (full power)>=SSJ4 Goku (max strength, healed, however still incapable of inflict great damage to Syn so he sorted in using UFP instead)>>SSJ4 Goku (post Nuova fight, Syn Shenron fight, blind, but still at max strength)>=Nuova Shenron (as Vegeta fought again with Nuova and despite the latter holding back, Vegeta was very sure about facing him).

Each arrow means how many times stronger the one is compared to the other, meaning that 5 ">" mean 5 times stronger and 2 ">" two times stronger. If UFP Goku was equal to Omega, then with SSJ4 Vegeta arriving, they wouldn't be so desperate with fusion. They had no other option they said, that they had absolutely no chance. It is safe to say that Omega is definitely stronger than UFP Goku. All the statements while Goku was in UFP reveal that. "His power is beyond comparion, "I have gained an amazing power-up", "this new form will put me on the top of all Shadow Dragons" etc.

Omega was meant to be the endgame. No one would have the power to face him individually. Fusion was needed and then even more individuals (in an essence) to gather energy for the Spirit Bomb.

Lastly UFP appeared only once against Omega. He transformed to fight Syn, overpowering him (blindness didn't matter anymore as when becoming UFP he Gohan stated that Goku had regained his full strength) but then Syn turned into Omega and Goku continued the fight untill he regained his sight. As I said with his power restored, he was now using it more effectively. He didn't get stronger. By the time Vegeta arrived to the scene, Goku had lost his UFP form.
The point is this :
Goten said that he can't tell who's stronger between Goku ssj4fp and omega.
Gt perfect files tells that base ssj 4 = syn, and that omega = x10 syn
That can mean only that ssj4fp is x10 ssj4, there are no other interpretations and it's factual.
Goku was equal to omega until ssj4fp worked, then he got an energy drain and the transformation wore off.
Vegeta arrived and became ssj4 after all of that, and no matter what they got both stomped by the Dragon, forcing them to use the fusion in order to beat him.
Also, Goku got a zenkai between the fight with nuova and the one with syn/omega, he was cured.

Returning to say my thing :
Utilizing numbers (ssj is x2 so I don't have to type enormous numbers)

Goku 1
Ssj4 1600
Nuova 1500
Goku ssj4, blind 800 (your strength is halved if you get blind)
Fpssj4 Goku, blind 8'000
Syn 6'000 (in fact he gets dominates by blind ssj4fp Goku and oneshots nuova)
Goku, healed /vegeta 3.75
Ssj4 Goku and vegeta 6'000
Omega 60'000/84'000 (gtpf tells that he's x10 syn, but in the anime omega tells that he's maybe more than 10 times stronger than before. Just use the x10 as initial omega , and the x14 for fp omega)
Goku ussj4fp 84'000 (equal to omega as goten said
And, if we want, I can add gogeta being anywhere from 120'000 to 1'152'000 following the perfect files

The blinding moment and the one against omega were different moments, Goku was weaker in the first and stronger in the second
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

User avatar
Grand Marshal 1
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:33 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:45 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:10 am
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:28 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:44 am


Start from the bottom :
Gt perfect files tells simply that syn= Goku ssj4=vegeta ssj4
Omega is x10 syn, or maybe more
Goku ssj4 fp appears 2 times, one blind vs syn the other healed, savings omega.
So, we have :

Omega = Goku ssj4fp(healed)>>>Goku ssj4fp(post nuova fight, blind) >>syn shenron>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight)>=nuova shenron >Goku ssh4 (nuova fight, blind)>>>>Goku ssj4 (nuova fight, blind, arms frozen)>ize shenron

Plus, going by " he tanked a kamehameha" you are going nowhere, in gt durability is clearly superior to the power level of the character in analysis.
That x2 thing you say it is true, but it really means nothing here. Ssj4fp being x2 ssj4 is your headcanon and only that, you can't fight my proofs with sterile claims from nothing but your mind. I have proofs for what I say, official proofs, you don't.
I am welcome to official data, but wasn't only Omega's power in comparison to Syn's what the Perfect Files described? I mean, we didn't get any other info from there regarding our topic. I agree on Omega being 10× Syn. The rest are up to debate. However, I clearly tried to explain it by using almost no headcannon here. It is only made up of feats and statements (plus what the Perfect Files described) with me only adding the number to UFP, which makes sense for everything else that happened.

So we got: Omega>>>>>UFP SSJ4 Goku (even after receiving his vision, which didn't change his power, but rather his combat effectiveness)=SSJ4 Goku & SSJ4 Vegeta (both at max strength with a healed Goku)>>Syn Shenron (full power)>=SSJ4 Goku (max strength, healed, however still incapable of inflict great damage to Syn so he sorted in using UFP instead)>>SSJ4 Goku (post Nuova fight, Syn Shenron fight, blind, but still at max strength)>=Nuova Shenron (as Vegeta fought again with Nuova and despite the latter holding back, Vegeta was very sure about facing him).

Each arrow means how many times stronger the one is compared to the other, meaning that 5 ">" mean 5 times stronger and 2 ">" two times stronger. If UFP Goku was equal to Omega, then with SSJ4 Vegeta arriving, they wouldn't be so desperate with fusion. They had no other option they said, that they had absolutely no chance. It is safe to say that Omega is definitely stronger than UFP Goku. All the statements while Goku was in UFP reveal that. "His power is beyond comparion, "I have gained an amazing power-up", "this new form will put me on the top of all Shadow Dragons" etc.

Omega was meant to be the endgame. No one would have the power to face him individually. Fusion was needed and then even more individuals (in an essence) to gather energy for the Spirit Bomb.

Lastly UFP appeared only once against Omega. He transformed to fight Syn, overpowering him (blindness didn't matter anymore as when becoming UFP he Gohan stated that Goku had regained his full strength) but then Syn turned into Omega and Goku continued the fight untill he regained his sight. As I said with his power restored, he was now using it more effectively. He didn't get stronger. By the time Vegeta arrived to the scene, Goku had lost his UFP form.
The point is this :
Goten said that he can't tell who's stronger between Goku ssj4fp and omega.
Gt perfect files tells that base ssj 4 = syn, and that omega = x10 syn
That can mean only that ssj4fp is x10 ssj4, there are no other interpretations and it's factual.
Goku was equal to omega until ssj4fp worked, then he got an energy drain and the transformation wore off.
Vegeta arrived and became ssj4 after all of that, and no matter what they got both stomped by the Dragon, forcing them to use the fusion in order to beat him.
Also, Goku got a zenkai between the fight with nuova and the one with syn/omega, he was cured.

Returning to say my thing :
Utilizing numbers (ssj is x2 so I don't have to type enormous numbers)

Goku 1
Ssj4 1600
Nuova 1500
Goku ssj4, blind 800 (your strength is halved if you get blind)
Fpssj4 Goku, blind 8'000
Syn 6'000 (in fact he gets dominates by blind ssj4fp Goku and oneshots nuova)
Goku, healed /vegeta 3.75
Ssj4 Goku and vegeta 6'000
Omega 60'000/84'000 (gtpf tells that he's x10 syn, but in the anime omega tells that he's maybe more than 10 times stronger than before. Just use the x10 as initial omega , and the x14 for fp omega)
Goku ussj4fp 84'000 (equal to omega as goten said
And, if we want, I can add gogeta being anywhere from 120'000 to 1'152'000 following the perfect files

The blinding moment and the one against omega were different moments, Goku was weaker in the first and stronger in the second
Granted. Syn equals SSJ4 Goku. But please tell me the very simple reason as to why Syn wasn't annihilated by UFP Goku if the latter was indeed 10 times stronger. Because when Goku at max strength as a SSJ4 faced the equally stronger by ten times Omega, he was given hell.

Once again, the UFP part was the very same sequence. No zenkais or boosts in between. Goku had the same power in UFP in the beginning as he did when he reverted to regular SSJ4. He only got his vision back. It gave him no power increase. When he charged to turn into UFP, he was restored to max strength for SSJ4 (this is equal to Syn) but he wanted to keep going further to finish the enemy. Gohan clearly stated that Goku had fully recovered while becoming UFP. There was no extra power from re-attaining his eyesite nor was there a zenkai. These things aren't left unmentioned. Perhaps he even used one of those invisible Kaio Kens :lol: jk.

Not only would Goku be 10 times stronger, but he also fired a 10× Kamehameha towards Syn. Syn tanked a 10× while Goku was exhausted and a regular SSJ4. After he went full strength, he also got the UFP on top. This gave him nearly 4 times greater power than Syn, so a Kamehameha from Goku would be bad for Syn. It was. But if Goku was 10 times stronger, not even one particle from Syn would exist.

Damage resistance isn't corresponding to someone's power level, but no way would someone be able to take on an ultimate attack from someone who would be 10 times stronger, without getting almost blown away. This is the reason Syn survived.
My posts will speak for myself! :)

Post Reply