The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:08 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:11 pm
  • SS2 Overloaded Kefla and SS2 Rage Spirit Bomb FTrunks (from Universe survival arc) vs SS3 Cumber
  • 7-Moro-3 vs Golden Great Ape Ultra Pinich
  • Toppo (full power Base), Enraged SSR Black, Golden Cooler and Post-Namek Moro (no absorbtion) vs 2nd Form Anilaza
  • Super Perfect Cell vs 7-3 (peak) (stats equalized)
1) I don't remember how much from blue kaiokened fusions Cumber took, but he was subdued by a non-serious Jiren. I think the power exerted by those two could injure Cumber. Without teamwork they should be fucked though.

2) Pass

3) I think the team easily takes it. I always felt Aniraza was a struggle mostly due to the big guns holding back to save energy for U11. At the end of the day, Aniraza's core couldn't take a hit from 17. So I think a real blue level character at full power would defeat the robot, let alone two high blue tier like Enrage Rose and Toppo.

4) We don't know how strong 7-3 is, he is fast enough to grab Piccolo's neck, so he might be Z SS2 level. That is all he needs to beat Super Perfect Cell.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:13 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:11 pm
  • SS2 Overloaded Kefla and SS2 Rage Spirit Bomb FTrunks (from Universe survival arc) vs SS3 Cumber
  • 7-Moro-3 vs Golden Great Ape Ultra Pinich
  • Toppo (full power Base), Enraged SSR Black, Golden Cooler and Post-Namek Moro (no absorbtion) vs 2nd Form Anilaza
  • Super Perfect Cell vs 7-3 (peak) (stats equalized)
1. Cumber seemed to be silver hair tier, while Kefla and Trunks haven't shown anything putting them nearly as strong. Cumber stomps.

2. I don't think Moro is quite as strong as Beerus, while I think GGA Ultra Pinich is. Not to mention the fusion has Cell's regeneration and Freeza's durability. Moro would lose under normal conditions, but the fusion is easily undone by spirit fission so Moro wins easily.

3. The team takes this. They're roughly as strong as the Goku/Vegeta/Freeza/Gohan/17 combo in the actual tournament, so things go quite similarly.

4. Even with Piccolo's abilities, I don't think 7-3 can regenerate from a single cell. Cell would probably be the more skilled fighter as well, because of Goku and Vegeta's cells, so I think Cell wins.

Pretty solid match-ups overall!
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:25 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:13 pm
Grand Marshal 1 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:11 pm
  • SS2 Overloaded Kefla and SS2 Rage Spirit Bomb FTrunks (from Universe survival arc) vs SS3 Cumber
  • 7-Moro-3 vs Golden Great Ape Ultra Pinich
  • Toppo (full power Base), Enraged SSR Black, Golden Cooler and Post-Namek Moro (no absorbtion) vs 2nd Form Anilaza
  • Super Perfect Cell vs 7-3 (peak) (stats equalized)
1. Cumber seemed to be silver hair tier, while Kefla and Trunks haven't shown anything putting them nearly as strong. Cumber stomps.

2. I don't think Moro is quite as strong as Beerus, while I think GGA Ultra Pinich is. Not to mention the fusion has Cell's regeneration and Freeza's durability. Moro would lose under normal conditions, but the fusion is easily undone by spirit fission so Moro wins easily.

3. The team takes this. They're roughly as strong as the Goku/Vegeta/Freeza/Gohan/17 combo in the actual tournament, so things go quite similarly.

4. Even with Piccolo's abilities, I don't think 7-3 can regenerate from a single cell. Cell would probably be the more skilled fighter as well, because of Goku and Vegeta's cells, so I think Cell wins.

Pretty solid match-ups overall!
Thx man I appreciate it. Always trying to not repeat myself.

For Cumber I used as reference the fact that in SS3 (albeit in a weakened state apparently) he was on equal footing with GoD Mode Toppo, who was kinda unable to defeat/get defeated by 'Neo' Merged-Zamasu. Zamasu having battled Kefla and defeating her (iirc). So her with SS2 Rage Spirit Bomb (cause Rage is pretty much blue tier) should be enough to challenge that Cumber.

Although he still stomps can't disagree.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GatoF » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:38 pm

1. Current manga Piccolo vs Future Zamasu(no immortality)
2. ToP Piccolo vs GT Hell Fighter 17
3. ToP 17 and 18 vs ToP Ssj2 Caulifla and Lssj Kale (controlling her power)
4. ToP Goku ssjbluekkx20(before the first UI) vs ToP Hit

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:49 pm

GatoF wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:38 pm
1. Current manga Piccolo vs Future Zamasu(no immortality)
2. ToP Piccolo vs GT Hell Fighter 17
3. ToP 17 and 18 vs ToP Ssj2 Caulifla and Lssj Kale (controlling her power)
4. ToP Goku ssjbluekkx20(before the first UI) vs ToP Hit
This is a very interesting match but we have no real way of knowing how strong Piccolo got. I say Zamasu wins barely.
ToP Piccolo already beats all of Z with the exception of the later forms of Boo and Vegetto. I can't see 17 winning this.
17 alone one shots them both.
Blue Goku already defeated Hit before the tournament so with a KKx20 he can one shot him.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:19 pm

GatoF wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:38 pm
1. Current manga Piccolo vs Future Zamasu(no immortality)
2. ToP Piccolo vs GT Hell Fighter 17
3. ToP 17 and 18 vs ToP Ssj2 Caulifla and Lssj Kale (controlling her power)
4. ToP Goku ssjbluekkx20(before the first UI) vs ToP Hit
1) Aside of not dying or being KO'd while fighting alongside Gohan against blue level characters, it hasn't been clear where Piccolo stands right now. However, I don't think he is stronger than Zamasu, who made Goku use God to subdue him, after their first encounter.

2) Piccolo. He was shown to be somewhere between SS2 and at least Ultimate Gohan. HF 17 is stronger than base Vegeta, not even base Goku was as strong as Ultimate Gohan.

3) 17 is already stronger than them. With the help of 18, they win unharmed.

4) Regular blue Goku is stronger and has already hacked Hit's time skip and that ghost dimension thing. Hit's only chance is the Time Cage, Goku can't break out of that, but probably can beat Hit before he uses it. Jiren had a more passive approach, SSBKKx20 Goku would be much more active in putting Hit down.
That ghost dimension thing has similarities with the Time Cage, in that case that technique would be obsolete as well vs Goku

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:52 pm

It's more clear where Moro Arc Piccolo stands right now than ToP Piccolo. Moro Arc Piccolo performed better against Saganbo than 17 did, who's SSJ3 tier. That makes Piccolo SSJ3+ tier. ToP Piccolo in the anime was getting beaten around by opponents base Gohan could fight with, then somehow, after less than a minute of charging, his SBC was able to hurt both Saonel and Pilina, who at full power were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:52 pm
It's more clear where Moro Arc Piccolo stands right now than ToP Piccolo. Moro Arc Piccolo performed better against Saganbo than 17 did, who's SSJ3 tier. That makes Piccolo SSJ3+ tier. ToP Piccolo in the anime was getting beaten around by opponents base Gohan could fight with, then somehow, after less than a minute of charging, his SBC was able to hurt both Saonel and Pilina, who at full power were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan.
And yet with all this scaling, something is telling me Piccolo would struggle vs SS Goku...
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:58 pm

I'm not so sure about taking at face value how the Saganbo fight went, which happened mostly off-screen, as usual. Gohan and 17 were the first ones to get stomped hard by Saganbo when the whole team fought him, and that's it. Then we see 17 already defeated, next to 18, and Gohan still standing, putting up a fight, now with Piccolo's help. We don't know if Piccolo took the same beating 17 did. Objectively speaking, we can only say Gohan performed better than the rest.

Also, 17 beat up 7-3(Moro absorbed). According to Jaco, when 7-3 grabs someone, it's like fighting the original dude.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:46 pm

Moro Saga Piccolo is the strongest person behind Gohan in the fight against Saganbo. That's obviously the case here, what is shown and what is stated according to Goku, who said Piccolo and Gohan got drastically stronger.

Both managed to put up a fight and hold their own. Gohan did better than the rest, then Piccolo, and then both Androids were treated like fodder.

It wouldn't make sense if Piccolo was weaker than mere SSJ tier if Goku clearly stated he was barely recognizable. Piccolo was obviously fodder in the ToP and weaker than SSJ. But for Goku to say he was barely recognizable, his increase must have been pretty damn large. Obviously far far above SSJ3 tier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Piccolo must have really benefited from working alongside Gohan. Since the Buu arc everyone's favourite Namekian has been visibly stagnant in his progression of strength. Several arcs portray his degeneration in such a questionable light that people debated if he was inferior to the base Saiyans. At least here there's some push back to give Piccolo a hand up. Fans may question its plausibility but Gohan alone can help to rationalise the growth. It's at least more effective than Goku's sporadic image training at the beginning of the BOG arc.

In comparison to fighters from past arcs, the Piccolo of now would likely be quite the opponent. Dragon Ball's ever increasing stakes model would encourage it. Would it sound crazy to suggest that Moro arc Piccolo could take the likes of Dyspo in the manga?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:57 pm

I believe training with someone far stronger than himself gives Piccolo crazy gains. Back then, when training with SSJ Goku for 3 years for the arrival of the androids, Piccolo went from way weaker than Base Goku to close to SSJ Goku. After the Cell Games, Piccolo only trained by himself or just meditate on the lookout, and barely got any stronger. That happened from the Buu Saga to the Tournament of Power.

Now that he had a way stronger partner like Ultimate Gohan. His gains would be far bigger than any gains he had since Post Cell Saga. Piccolo is clearly no longer just mere SSJ tier now. Goku complimented his strength. Him being mere SSJ tier would be pointless, given Goku's statement, as well as the fights against Saganbo and Moro, where he performed far better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, who are clearly the ONLY ones from the group that were stronger than Piccolo.

Lionel wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:16 pm
In comparison to fighters from past arcs, the Piccolo of now would likely be quite the opponent. Dragon Ball's ever increasing stakes model would encourage it. Would it sound crazy to suggest that Moro arc Piccolo could take the likes of Dyspo in the manga?
Definitely.

The Dyspo from the manga is probably not even the same Dyspo from the anime. Dyspo could only fight against SSJ2 Goku, and then later got one shooted by SSB Vegeta, who just ignored him completely and went to fight Toppo. Dyspo doesn't even have Super Maximum Light Speed Mode.

Piccolo at this point should far surpass SSJ3 tier by miles.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:26 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:52 pm
It's more clear where Moro Arc Piccolo stands right now than ToP Piccolo. Moro Arc Piccolo performed better against Saganbo than 17 did, who's SSJ3 tier. That makes Piccolo SSJ3+ tier. ToP Piccolo in the anime was getting beaten around by opponents base Gohan could fight with, then somehow, after less than a minute of charging, his SBC was able to hurt both Saonel and Pilina, who at full power were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan.
How int he blue hell is 17 SS3 tier? A casual energy ball terrified SS3 Goku to such an extent that he stopped the fight. Goku later confirms 17 is Blue tier. How are people still arguing this?

Saonel and Pirina aren't on par with Ultimate Gohan since he fought both of them at the same time without much trouble. Piccolo's Makankosappo was one beyond his limits so it makes sense why it hurt the U6 Namekians.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:38 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:58 pm
Also, 17 beat up 7-3(Moro absorbed). According to Jaco, when 7-3 grabs someone, it's like fighting the original dude.
17 beat up an already beaten up 7-3. It wasn't anything impressive and I wish people would stop constantly bringing it up.
ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:26 pm
Saonel and Pirina aren't on par with Ultimate Gohan since he fought both of them at the same time without much trouble. Piccolo's Makankosappo was one beyond his limits so it makes sense why it hurt the U6 Namekians.
Then why didn't Gohan just take them out of the arena? Why did he need Piccolo's help? And no, Piccolo's Makankosappo didn't make any sense, since he only charged it for less than a minute, not to mention that he was also exhausted. You made a good point about 17 but I disagree with what you said here.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:08 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:38 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:58 pm
Also, 17 beat up 7-3(Moro absorbed). According to Jaco, when 7-3 grabs someone, it's like fighting the original dude.
17 beat up an already beaten up 7-3. It wasn't anything impressive and I wish people would stop constantly bringing it up.
That would matter if 7-3 didn't have infinite stamina and couldn't regenerate.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:08 pm
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:38 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:58 pm
Also, 17 beat up 7-3(Moro absorbed). According to Jaco, when 7-3 grabs someone, it's like fighting the original dude.
17 beat up an already beaten up 7-3. It wasn't anything impressive and I wish people would stop constantly bringing it up.
That would matter if 7-3 didn't have infinite stamina and couldn't regenerate.
Having infinite stamina doesn't mean you're invincible to injuries. And 7-3 wasn't seen regenerating before the fight with 17.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:40 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:08 pm
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:38 am


17 beat up an already beaten up 7-3. It wasn't anything impressive and I wish people would stop constantly bringing it up.
That would matter if 7-3 didn't have infinite stamina and couldn't regenerate.
Having infinite stamina doesn't mean you're invincible to injuries. And 7-3 wasn't seen regenerating before the fight with 17.
Actually that is literally what happened. He got Perfect-Cell'd by Piccolo and Gohan, regenerated half his body, switched to Moro and then the twins jumped him. Add infinite stamina to that mix.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:09 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:40 pm
DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:29 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:08 pm


That would matter if 7-3 didn't have infinite stamina and couldn't regenerate.
Having infinite stamina doesn't mean you're invincible to injuries. And 7-3 wasn't seen regenerating before the fight with 17.
Actually that is literally what happened. He got Perfect-Cell'd by Piccolo and Gohan, regenerated half his body, switched to Moro and then the twins jumped him. Add infinite stamina to that mix.
My bad, I completely forgot about that.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:47 pm

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:38 am
Then why didn't Gohan just take them out of the arena? Why did he need Piccolo's help? And no, Piccolo's Makankosappo didn't make any sense, since he only charged it for less than a minute, not to mention that he was also exhausted. You made a good point about 17 but I disagree with what you said here.
Gohan said they had incredible stamina and that helped with their regeneration. I also don't think they are that far off of Gohan, around half as strong should do.

The ToP had a lot of moments when fighters simply went beyond their limits when doing attacks, regardless of stamina. It happens in the manga as well when a near death Vegeta turning 2 Merged Zamasus into pieces.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:22 pm

I'm glad people are recognizing Piccolo's gains now. I've seen such downplay of his character even after he threatened to blow Moro away inside his barrier. Like how can you be anything lower than a BOG SSG to inflict that level of destruction to Moro. Piccolo isn't one to mindlessly boast these days, so you better believe he was capable of this damage. He likely wouldn't have succeeded, but the fact that he thought it would hurt Moro is enough to show me that he's a contender now behind Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan like it should be at this time. Frieza would likely still be much higher as well, above him and Gohan.
Lionel wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:16 pm
Piccolo must have really benefited from working alongside Gohan. Since the Buu arc everyone's favourite Namekian has been visibly stagnant in his progression of strength. Several arcs portray his degeneration in such a questionable light that people debated if he was inferior to the base Saiyans. At least here there's some push back to give Piccolo a hand up. Fans may question its plausibility but Gohan alone can help to rationalise the growth. It's at least more effective than Goku's sporadic image training at the beginning of the BOG arc.
There's always been a little pushback. The Super anime has been doing wonky stuff to "protect" Piccolo in some ways. For instance, he fought Tagoma in his weighted clothing and was able to bypass him and Frieza's (already in motion) Death Beam to save Gohan while still in his weights. That by itself doesn't seem like much to pay attention to, but then in the U6 tourney vs Frost, despite being stated to be completely outclassed, he was shown to block Frost's attacks one-handed and bind him with his arm before nearly defeating him. Again, not much to write home about but we can see that he isn't as weak as every thinks he is. Then they gave him the SBC/barrier feat. The manga played it straighter than that and showed us that he was on par with Frost when he exerted himself. Then his offscreen powerup in the anime put him above SSJ2 Gohan and they trained a bit more and he was somewhere between SSJ2 and Ult. Gohan. In the manga they made it clear that he was below the SSJ3 level of strength of #17. And now we have this arc where all of his crazy training has reached its apex.
In comparison to fighters from past arcs, the Piccolo of now would likely be quite the opponent. Dragon Ball's ever increasing stakes model would encourage it. Would it sound crazy to suggest that Moro arc Piccolo could take the likes of Dyspo in the manga?
Exactly. I personally think he's stronger than BOG SSG Goku. I think he's cresting the initial SSB tier from RoF, but much of the evidence points to him surpassing it. I just prefer to lowball.

One thing I will mention is that it's likely that Piccolo wasn't that far behind Dyspo in the manga during the ToP, since Dyspo wasn't even close to his anime counterpart in power or speed. Dyspo was probably comparable to #17 and I think that's being generous unless I'm missing something.
dragonball0900 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:57 pm
I believe training with someone far stronger than himself gives Piccolo crazy gains. Back then, when training with SSJ Goku for 3 years for the arrival of the androids, Piccolo went from way weaker than Base Goku to close to SSJ Goku. After the Cell Games, Piccolo only trained by himself or just meditate on the lookout, and barely got any stronger. That happened from the Buu Saga to the Tournament of Power.
I can't tell you how many times I bring this up on these forums. This is just the latest example of Piccolo's remarkable training gains. Give him a stronger partner and the guy will nearly match that person and all without a transformation of his own.
Now that he had a way stronger partner like Ultimate Gohan. His gains would be far bigger than any gains he had since Post Cell Saga.
I think if he and Gohan had been able to train for more than two days before the ToP, like if they were given two months to train back then, I think Piccolo would have been just as strong as he is now. Either just under it, or even a little over it depending on how motivated he was.
Piccolo is clearly no longer just mere SSJ tier now. Goku complimented his strength. Him being mere SSJ tier would be pointless, given Goku's statement, as well as the fights against Saganbo and Moro, where he performed far better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, who are clearly the ONLY ones from the group that were stronger than Piccolo.
And I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this. The Piccolo downplay is horrendous, especially with all the evidence on display.
Piccolo at this point should far surpass SSJ3 tier by miles.
SS3 is an extremely safe place to put him, since no one can argue this and he seems so capable of fighting above his limits, but realistically it's as you've said. He's well above the SS3 tier we saw Goku use against #17.
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