The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:59 pm

I wouldn't take his performance against Moro as meaning he is SSG tier now. Moro himself says he isn't trying to kill them and even tells Piccolo after defeting him that he was talking nonsense.

At best I can see him going from base tier to SS2 tier and give Caulifla a great fight. This would still be an incredible gain and be barely recognizable to Goku.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:58 pm

BWri wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:22 pm
dragonball0900 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:57 pm
I believe training with someone far stronger than himself gives Piccolo crazy gains. Back then, when training with SSJ Goku for 3 years for the arrival of the androids, Piccolo went from way weaker than Base Goku to close to SSJ Goku. After the Cell Games, Piccolo only trained by himself or just meditate on the lookout, and barely got any stronger. That happened from the Buu Saga to the Tournament of Power.
I can't tell you how many times I bring this up on these forums. This is just the latest example of Piccolo's remarkable training gains. Give him a stronger partner and the guy will nearly match that person and all without a transformation of his own.
Now that he had a way stronger partner like Ultimate Gohan. His gains would be far bigger than any gains he had since Post Cell Saga.
I think if he and Gohan had been able to train for more than two days before the ToP, like if they were given two months to train back then, I think Piccolo would have been just as strong as he is now. Either just under it, or even a little over it depending on how motivated he was.
Piccolo is clearly no longer just mere SSJ tier now. Goku complimented his strength. Him being mere SSJ tier would be pointless, given Goku's statement, as well as the fights against Saganbo and Moro, where he performed far better than anyone not named Goku, Vegeta or Gohan, who are clearly the ONLY ones from the group that were stronger than Piccolo.
And I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this. The Piccolo downplay is horrendous, especially with all the evidence on display.
Piccolo at this point should far surpass SSJ3 tier by miles.
SS3 is an extremely safe place to put him, since no one can argue this and he seems so capable of fighting above his limits, but realistically it's as you've said. He's well above the SS3 tier we saw Goku use against #17.
Indeed.

Training with a strong partner definitely gives Piccolo big gains. It wouldn't make sense at all that Goku would comment on Piccolo's strength if he was still as weak as a mere SSJ or SSJ2. Piccolo OBVIOUSLY increased his strength to a far different level beyond his limits. As opposed to when he trained by himself or simply meditate between the Buu and ToP sagas. And we clearly see Piccolo's performance clearly outshining any of the androids by far. And the fact that he even thought his explosion attack would have done something, it means Piccolo SHOULD have already left SSJ3 tier levels in the dust.

Also, regarding the excuse of "Moro doesn't want to kill them", the Cell Jrs. also didn't want to kill the Z fighters during the Cell Games as Cell ordered them not to. And we clearly saw who performed worse than the other. Just like how Saganbo was ordered not to kill the four. It's literally the same thing. Piccolo performing far better than the androids is as clear as day.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BWri » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:47 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:59 pm
I wouldn't take his performance against Moro as meaning he is SSG tier now. Moro himself says he isn't trying to kill them and even tells Piccolo after defeting him that he was talking nonsense.

At best I can see him going from base tier to SS2 tier and give Caulifla a great fight. This would still be an incredible gain and be barely recognizable to Goku.
I'm sorry, nothing lower than SSG tier has a chance of hurting Moro unless he's off guard. Piccolo confidently stated that "There'll be nothing left in here when I'm done" when talking about Moro's barrier which includes Moro himself. SSG even seems like a lowball in this instance which is why I think he's cresting RoF SSB. Piccolo is great at power amping, that's the only reason I'm comfortable even putting him here after that statement.
and even tells Piccolo after defeting him that he was talking nonsense
He was talking about about Piccolo's whole self-sacrificing hero speech that he was giving Jaco. At least that's how I took it. Regardless, his sentiment doesn't really matter here. I don't think Piccolo's attack would have worked, but for Piccolo to even remotely think that it would shouldn't be taken lightly. Piccolo would not come to this conclusion unless his attack had a chance of success, in this case, in terms of strength.
Last edited by BWri on Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:59 pm

And Moro said that was nonsense.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:21 am

I can easily see Piccolo being SS3 tier right now, with the Makankosappo putting him at Blue's level, and that self-sacrificing explosion being capable of taking out someone at Moro's level.

The biggest problem with scaling Super is that no one can still be used as an actual fixed point of reference.
17, Piccolo, Boo, Gohan, Freeza, Trunks, everyone has been made vaguely "much stronger than before" probably to avoid any inconsistencies.

At this point I don't even have a doubt that if Gotenks were to become relevant again, he'd also be "much stronger than before" and start fighting on par with Goku or something.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:16 am

I wish we knew where the humans stood. One of our best reference points are the Zoon-seijen whom Moro's group easily killed. Pui Pui was presumably the strongest of their number and recruited by Babidi as a result. Could we draw the conclusion that Moro's henchmen, sans Seven-Three and Saganbo, were stronger than Pui Pui? We also see them avoiding a downward strike from Magetta in the TOP arc.

Could Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan challenge someone like suppressed final form Freeza or maybe even the Android arc base Saiyans? I have my own opinions on these questions but I'm curious about what others have to say.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by MainJPW » Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:09 pm

Image

Moro Arc Earthlings swap opponents.

Kuririn and Muten Roshi vs. Bikkura Quoitur
Kuririn and Muten Roshi vs. Zauyogi

Yamcha vs. Yunba (Tenshinhan and Chaozu can help if needed like in their original fight)
Tenshinhan and Chaozu vs. Miza, Iwaza and Kikaza (Yamcha can help if needed)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:28 am

Lionel wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:16 am
I wish we knew where the humans stood. One of our best reference points are the Zoon-seijen whom Moro's group easily killed. Pui Pui was presumably the strongest of their number and recruited by Babidi as a result. Could we draw the conclusion that Moro's henchmen, sans Seven-Three and Saganbo, were stronger than Pui Pui? We also see them avoiding a downward strike from Magetta in the TOP arc.

Could Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan challenge someone like suppressed final form Freeza or maybe even the Android arc base Saiyans? I have my own opinions on these questions but I'm curious about what others have to say.
The anime makes it clear that they far exceed Frieza and Android saga Androids. Krillin himself seems to be on a suppressed #18's level. #18 is the wildcard in the anime. Until the Moro arc, I wasn't sure if she was still the same as she was in the Buu arc, a little bit stronger than that, a lot stronger than that, or comparable to #17 though slightly weaker. It seems now, they are more or less on the same level, but in the ToP it wasn't so clear. Regardless, the manga version of the humans didn't get to do anything at all until this arc outside of Roshi using Proto-UI to spar with Jiren. I'd say he clearly got a power boost, but then again Jiren was holding back.

Realistically, the humans are as strong as they've ever been. Super has proven to me that there are no hard limits to a character's strength, some races just progress far far faster. As such, I don't see the need to lock the humans to Frieza arc power levels if everyone else is getting closer and closer to god tier or surpassing it exponentially. I still believe that Tenshinhan was relevant to Final Form Frieza all the way back during the Cell games, maybe half or a third of his strength, so of course I'd think he was way stronger now.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:12 am

BWri wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:28 am
Lionel wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:16 am
I wish we knew where the humans stood. One of our best reference points are the Zoon-seijen whom Moro's group easily killed. Pui Pui was presumably the strongest of their number and recruited by Babidi as a result. Could we draw the conclusion that Moro's henchmen, sans Seven-Three and Saganbo, were stronger than Pui Pui? We also see them avoiding a downward strike from Magetta in the TOP arc.

Could Krillin, Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan challenge someone like suppressed final form Freeza or maybe even the Android arc base Saiyans? I have my own opinions on these questions but I'm curious about what others have to say.
The anime makes it clear that they far exceed Frieza and Android saga Androids. Krillin himself seems to be on a suppressed #18's level. #18 is the wildcard in the anime. Until the Moro arc, I wasn't sure if she was still the same as she was in the Buu arc, a little bit stronger than that, a lot stronger than that, or comparable to #17 though slightly weaker. It seems now, they are more or less on the same level, but in the ToP it wasn't so clear. Regardless, the manga version of the humans didn't get to do anything at all until this arc outside of Roshi using Proto-UI to spar with Jiren. I'd say he clearly got a power boost, but then again Jiren was holding back.

Realistically, the humans are as strong as they've ever been. Super has proven to me that there are no hard limits to a character's strength, some races just progress far far faster. As such, I don't see the need to lock the humans to Frieza arc power levels if everyone else is getting closer and closer to god tier or surpassing it exponentially. I still believe that Tenshinhan was relevant to Final Form Frieza all the way back during the Cell games, maybe half or a third of his strength, so of course I'd think he was way stronger now.
Well I was speaking with the manga primarily in mind. Having said that, I've noticed that there's quite a lot of minimalist interpretation for the humans. Some harbour such low expectations for the humans that they believe those characters never even surpassed Ginyu of all people!

Personally, I think there's a few bits and pieces in the Cell arc from the original manga to suggest that they improved quite a bit. One being the avoidance of Gero's attack which drew blood from Piccolo and the other being Gero's impression that Piccolo's energy combined with Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Gohan's would be enough to handle Vegeta. Question the source of that observation -- they're well worth the incredulity -- but I think if domestic training methods can still work for Goku as late as the early BOG arc then why can't the humans make inroads too?

Your interpretations sound very generous, though, BWri. I'm admittedly partial to the humans myself and am usually estimating someone like Tenshinhan to be within comparison range of the base Saiyans in the early Android arc in that same arc. If they reached the tens of millions then their energy could definitely be seen as useful for Gero bridging the gap to SSJ Vegeta. What makes this difficult for me to reconcile is the fact that Gohan wasn't deemed a fight worthy asset against Gero. We know how much potential Saiyan hybrids carry. Gohan should have been leaps and bounds stronger than the humans, quite possibly on par with Piccolo if not greater. Was Goku prioritising Piccolo over his son at that time? It's one of the better explanations I can think of.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm

- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:01 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm
- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta
1)thats a surprise bruh, I guess his Omen should be a 'multiplier' on top of his Spirit Controlled Blue Evolution in the Manga. If that's the case, he can probably match 7-Moro-3 blow-for-blow. Pretty sure his own Omen is probably at the same output as power stressed omen Goku, but a tad below his MUI. Now, Beerus with all his hype can't, or shouldn't exceed said level. Which leads me to say that it may be a stalemate given that Beerus uses a Pseudo-Omen himself.

2)depends from which point in the arc. The Jiren that fought these 2 (when they transformed) is probably stronger than 2nd Omen and Kefla.

Either soloes her imo. If she goes Overloaded, there's nothing some good Vegeta/Goku teamwork can't handle. She gets obliterated by technique and cooperation (ik these 2 don't fight well together, but they have extremely high affinity in team battles).
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:13 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm
- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta
1. Omen would make Vegeta probably rival or come close to Beerus PL. I suspect that FSF (Forced Spirit Fission) is useless to Beerus. Or for what we know of it. It only works on fusions and those that steal energy from others. This could change later on. I think Beerus wins out of experience.

2. Either beat her with mid-difficulty. She is as strong as both of them. But, either of them win out of experience.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm
- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta
Beerus still wins.

Kefla one shots them both. Neither Goku or Vegeta are winning this without Omen or an Enraged SSBE.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by UI Peter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:35 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm
- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta
Beerus still wins.

Kefla one shots them both. Neither Goku or Vegeta are winning this without Omen or an Enraged SSBE.
Early SSBE Vegeta was already much stronger than SSJ2 Kefla, based on the scaling with the Final Flash.

SSJ1 Kefla was said to be equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb, yet Normal SSB Vegeta was able to make a Final Flash against Jiren that was at least equal to it (it was implied to be stronger due to everyone's reaction to it compared to the SB)

Also, if 3rd Omen Goku in the ToP anime was "almost" Beerus level according to that Toei guide, then current Omen Vegeta should stomp Beerus.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:15 am

UI Peter wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:23 pm
- FP Beerus vs current Omen Vegeta (yes, he unlocks Omen)

- SS2 Kefla vs well-rested Top SSBKKx20 Goku and ToP Initial SSBE Vegeta
Beerus still wins.

Kefla one shots them both. Neither Goku or Vegeta are winning this without Omen or an Enraged SSBE.
Early SSBE Vegeta was already much stronger than SSJ2 Kefla, based on the scaling with the Final Flash.

SSJ1 Kefla was said to be equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb, yet Normal SSB Vegeta was able to make a Final Flash against Jiren that was at least equal to it (it was implied to be stronger due to everyone's reaction to it compared to the SB)

Also, if 3rd Omen Goku in the ToP anime was "almost" Beerus level according to that Toei guide, then current Omen Vegeta should stomp Beerus.
SSBE Vegeta without the rage boost was equal to just KKx20 Blue Goku. Both are fodder to even SS Kefla.

SSB Vegeta being able to do a FF that strong means nothing. It's a charged attack beyond his limits, just like Piccolo's Makankosappo hurt Blue tier characters when he's just base tier.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by UI Peter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:21 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:15 am
UI Peter wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:41 am

Beerus still wins.

Kefla one shots them both. Neither Goku or Vegeta are winning this without Omen or an Enraged SSBE.
Early SSBE Vegeta was already much stronger than SSJ2 Kefla, based on the scaling with the Final Flash.

SSJ1 Kefla was said to be equal to the U7 Spirit Bomb, yet Normal SSB Vegeta was able to make a Final Flash against Jiren that was at least equal to it (it was implied to be stronger due to everyone's reaction to it compared to the SB)

Also, if 3rd Omen Goku in the ToP anime was "almost" Beerus level according to that Toei guide, then current Omen Vegeta should stomp Beerus.
SSBE Vegeta without the rage boost was equal to just KKx20 Blue Goku. Both are fodder to even SS Kefla.

SSB Vegeta being able to do a FF that strong means nothing. It's a charged attack beyond his limits, just like Piccolo's Makankosappo hurt Blue tier characters when he's just base tier.
Vegeta's Final Flash doesn't boost him any more than 2x his regular strength (it would have easily killed Perfect Cell if it did), so if it was stronger or at least equal to the U7 spirit bomb then that would basically prove that early SSBE (which as you admit is equal to SSBKKx20) was MUCH stronger than SSJ2 Kefla by scaling.

And ep.123 SSBKK > 115 SSBKK

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by UI Peter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:02 am

Ultimate Gohan (Moro arc) vs Future Trunks (End of Black arc Anime)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:12 am

UI Peter wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:21 am
Vegeta's Final Flash doesn't boost him any more than 2x his regular strength (it would have easily killed Perfect Cell if it did), so if it was stronger or at least equal to the U7 spirit bomb then that would basically prove that early SSBE (which as you admit is equal to SSBKKx20) was MUCH stronger than SSJ2 Kefla by scaling.

And ep.123 SSBKK > 115 SSBKK
FF has no set multiplier.

KKx20 Goku is nowhere near SS Kefla.

Goku's base doesn't get stronger during the ToP. Just Omen.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:05 pm

Sounds like Kefla wank
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by UI Peter » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:11 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:12 am
UI Peter wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:21 am
Vegeta's Final Flash doesn't boost him any more than 2x his regular strength (it would have easily killed Perfect Cell if it did), so if it was stronger or at least equal to the U7 spirit bomb then that would basically prove that early SSBE (which as you admit is equal to SSBKKx20) was MUCH stronger than SSJ2 Kefla by scaling.

And ep.123 SSBKK > 115 SSBKK
FF has no set multiplier.

KKx20 Goku is nowhere near SS Kefla.

Goku's base doesn't get stronger during the ToP. Just Omen.
If SSBE Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Kefla then so is KKx20 Goku after ep.122

If Goku's base never got any stronger in the ToP (despite being stated and shown too several times), then each Omen would have been equal to the last. Transformations are fixed multipliers, they don't change (the people who use them do).

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