I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Sun May 22, 2011 12:20 am

So I'll just ask one last question. If I went into a topic titled "The human characters don't get enough attention" referring to Krillin, Yamcha, and the like--and I posted saying "Actually topic creator, you are wrong, because Dragon Ball is dominated by humans... Super Vegetto, Gotenks, Piccolo, The Androids, Freeza, they're all humans. See look (links to Herm's guide)."

You're saying I wouldn't be wrong?

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Fox666 » Sun May 22, 2011 12:25 am

I would call you an idiot looking over uninportant details, much like someone who post merely to correct grammatical errors...

Which of course won't mean you are wrong.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Eddie » Sun May 22, 2011 12:26 am

http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E3%81%AB%E3 ... &romaji=on

http://www.freedict.com/onldict/onldict.php

Please, dude, stop. You're being a moron. And I do not call my fellow forum members morons. 99% of the people here are cool. Please try to get out of that 1%.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Sun May 22, 2011 12:26 am

Fox666 wrote:I would call you an idiot looking over uninportant details, much like someone who post merely to correct grammatical errors...

Which of course won't mean you are wrong.
Because that's the kind of shit that's already happening on other boards.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Kaboom » Sun May 22, 2011 12:27 am

Good lord, man, what the hell is the problem here? How many times do people need to tell you this? One more time, apparently.

Yes, in the most simple and common sense, "ningen" means "human." In the context of Dragon Ball, however, it can easily be used in a wider range to mean, "person." Or if you're picky, something like, "humanoid."

There. Done.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by VegettoEX » Sun May 22, 2011 9:20 am

OK, I guess I'll be the one to do it.

SuperForteX, you are a crazy person. That's how you come across, anyway. You think that people here have a "monopoly" on translations, and that every single person here is just an alternate account of mine, with a grand conspiracy to insert subtle hints of personal agenda into said translations to slowly wean the entire fandom toward a single, factually-incorrect consensus.

And you say it with the Internet equivalent of a straight face.

Now, look... I don't hold anyone else's comments from other communities against them when they come here, so long as they can act according to the rules for THIS community which they agreed to prior to registration. You've been having a problem with that completely independent of your crazy talk elsewhere, however. You are almost exclusively antagonistic (save for, like I mentioned before, something like your manga page thickness/quality question), and even when we get people circling words on a page to show you that the word actually exists, you close your eyes, put your hands over your ears, and start loudly singing to yourself.

Meanwhile, you go and start requesting juvenile fanart of the administrator (that being me), along with putting quotes of moderation you've received in your signature, which I can only guess is a, "YEAH! Putting it to THE MAN!" kind of response.

Everyone else here is likely wondering why the bloody Hell you're not just eradicated from the forum. This kind of childish nonsense is not tolerated. It just isn't. Me being the overly-kind person I am, though (and perhaps I'm simultaneously enamored by your dedication to fabricating stories about me while you simultaneously drag down my entire community), I'm willing to let you continue the conversation.

Are you willing to do it without being a crazy person, though? I'm not sure. If you are, by all means go for it.

If not, you simply won't have access to the community anymore.

Everyone else, carry on. Remember to treat your peers with respect, even when they don't seemingly have the capacity to show it to you in return.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Sun May 22, 2011 9:31 am

I've noticed that Viz, the official english translation of the manga uses "human" when referring to Saiyans at least 2 times, so it isn't only fans who have translated it to "human".
As my sig says(which I probably should change now that the topic is open again):
Kaioshin in volume 39/DBZ VizBig 8 wrote:If I had known that you humans were far stronger than I...
Kibito in the same volume wrote:Y-You're going to let a human being set foot on that sacred ground?!
The danish version(which is based on the german version) uses human at least 3 times when referring to Saiyans in volume 39, so as you can see the idea that Saiyans are humans is not made up by fans or any form for conspiracy, when he have official publications using that specific word.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Herms » Sun May 22, 2011 10:48 am

Casual Matt wrote:I think the problem here is that some people may be forcing the English definition of the word "human" onto the Japanese word "ningen".
No, not so much. Typically ningen is used pretty much the same way "human" is in English. There are lots of manga, anime, and whatnot where ningen refers exclusively to people from Earth despite the presence of aliens who look and act just like humans. So DB extending the term to aliens is somewhat unusual, though not unprecedented.
SuperForteX wrote:Face it, DB has been translated into dozens of languages for dozens of years, no where have I ever, or (outside of this baord and the other) will hear... of the aliens, Namekians, Freeza, etc. as humans.
I'm sorry, but have you done any research to back that up? How do you actually know that all the various translations of DB don't call them "humans"? As dbgtFo pointed out, the Viz translation actually does call them "human" several times (despite altering other instances of the term being used that way), but you weren't even aware of that.
SuperForteX wrote:That is saying
1. man
2. person
3. human being

Usually the higher the number, the less common the meaning. That is how most dictionaries work, right?
When it comes to that, they've got "man" first, despite ningen being quite unambiguously gender-neutral. Jim Breen has it "human being; man; person". But really, you'd be perfectly OK with the Saiyans et al being men, but them being humans is completely crazy? How does that work?
VegettoEX wrote:SuperForteX, you are a crazy person. That's how you come across, anyway. You think that people here have a "monopoly" on translations, and that every single person here is just an alternate account of mine, with a grand conspiracy to insert subtle hints of personal agenda into said translations to slowly wean the entire fandom toward a single, factually-incorrect consensus.
Our plan:

1. Convince DB fandom that Saiyans are humans
2. ???
3. Profit!
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Sun May 22, 2011 11:11 am

Since I will probably be asked to provide a scan of an example of the Viz version using the term human, when referring to Saiyans, I decided to just post it now, so we don't waste time discussing my credibility.
Image
Just scanned by me. It looks kinda crappy on the right side because I scanned my VizBig, which binding isn't as worn down as my danish ones.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Sun May 22, 2011 10:54 pm

EDIT - Shameful defensiveness removed by self- In any case Majin Buu with VegettoEX absorbed would be a whimsical tribute to a person who we look up to, not any form of juvenile attack on your character. I guess no one has the right to use someone else's likeness without that individual's permission, but I had not imagined you'd picture a bald, pink, steam-blowing version of your avatar to be... somehow offensive. I apologize for making the request. It wasn't my intention to offend you.

In a sense, I think I was originally wrong, too, thinking that the translation of ningen was the root of the problem. After hashing out this discussion, I no longer think the fault lies on the translators (not entirely anyway, although they do carry their fair share of the blame). The majority of the fault lies on the Japanese language itself. It is a cultural difference, simple as that.

Please, allow me to elaborate.

In English, there are certain unofficial caveats for handling the term human. The words 'human' and 'person' are not always interchangable, despite what a dictionary may tell you. In the realm of fiction, science fiction especially, the term 'human' refers to Homo Sapiens species; whereas, by dictionary definition (in a world where there are no other sentient species that we know of), it is indeed interchangeable with the word person.

In this sense, humans are all people, but not all people are humans.

Understand?

In this sense, by that context, YES this translation would be incorrect.
Capt. Ginyu wrote:I'm also the type of human who can change his battle power at will!
Capt. Ginyu is clearly not a human being. The above translation will serve to confuse fans.

It's a question of context and appropriateness.

So, that ningen equates to being human in a dictionary may be true, it's not the best translation in the context in which it's used in Dragon Ball. I think we can all agree that a more generic term like "person" is far more appropriate.

And, yes, when translating something from one language to another, 'appropriateness' trumps 'accuracy'. It's not all about literal meaning of every word, or else there shouldn't be any such thing as differences between plural and singular nouns in the professional translations. Meaning is just as important, and you can't tell me that Akira Toriyama meant to say that Capt. Ginyu is a human being.

I mean, are you following this, reader? Is this crazy talk to say such a thing?

When you translate something, the point is to communicate. In that sense, the general meaning of the dialog is the most important thing to convey!

Think about it in these terms, Dragon Ball itself, [Akira Toriyama] does differentiate between 'human' and 'person', in that when he describes what we understand as human beings, he uses the term "Earthling", and then uses "ningen" as the generic catch-all. So, by that fact alone, how can you not see translating ningen as 'human' to be incorrect? It may not be incorrect in the literal sense, but it certainly seems to be incorrect in that specific context.
Last edited by SuperForteX on Mon May 23, 2011 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Bussani » Sun May 22, 2011 11:35 pm

SuperForteX wrote:Capt. Ginyu is clearly not a human being.
Using your definition.
The above translation will serve to confuse fans.
Maybe. That's what this is about at the heart of the matter, isn't it? But Herms himself already said in his first post, he wouldn't jump down someone throat like it sounds like someone's done on another forum; it's just something that's worth pointing out because it's unusual, even in the Japanese language. It's just a tidbit. I tried to get that across in my first post, too. But since you're saying it would confuse fans, wouldn't the Viz translation do the same when Kaioshin calls the Saiyans humans? I guess you think they should have translated it as mortals or something in that instance.
So, that ningen equates to being human in a dictionary may be true, it's not the best translation in the context in which it's used in Dragon Ball. I think we can all agree that a more generic term like "person" is far more appropriate.
There are several cases where "person" wouldn't make any more sense. But to be honest, that's what people like Rachel and me have been saying from the start; literally it is human, but we're happy to substitute "person" or "humanoid" or "mortal". It's just a fact that the way Toriyama's using terms isn't common in the native language, and that's an interesting thing to talk about to some people.
Think about it in these terms, Dragon Ball itself, [Akira Toriyama] does differentiate between 'human' and 'person', in that when he describes what we understand as human beings, he uses the term "Earthling", and then uses "ningen" as the generic catch-all. So, by that fact alone, how can you not see translating ningen as 'human' to be incorrect?
Technically, if he can use a word that usually means human as a catch all for the Dragon Ball universe, why can't we use the word human itself as a catch all for the Dragon Ball universe? I'm not exactly saying we should, but it's no different.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Eddie » Mon May 23, 2011 12:01 am

Your problem, sir, is that you clearly have no interest in a true discussion on this matter. You seem to be seeking nothing more than validation for your opinion. It's as though you expect us to agree with you if you just keep repeating yourself. Even when you attempt to retract a small portion of your previous statements, you negate that with horribly misinformed statements (potentially even insults).
I no longer think the fault lies on the translators (not entirely anyway, although they do carry their fair share of the blame)


Huh? What blame? Why in the world do the people who have a solid grasp of a language you so clearly misunderstand deserve blame? Are you blaming them for translating things with a fairly good level of accuracy? That makes no sense. Perhaps you're blaming them for not blindly agreeing with some dude on the internet that starts antagonistic threads. It makes no sense, but eh, I'm no psychiatrist. I also find the fact that there are two SuperForteXs that both think Herms is a terrible translator (and/or is VegettoEX in a disguise) quite entertaining, in a train wreck sort of way. There are things I could say on that subject that are both amusing and rude. I won't spell it out, but think Ralph Wiggum/the leprechaun that tells him to burn things. Or that dude from A Beautiful Mind.

One final note. I think I understand why you haven't been banned. In a sick sort of way, you've been amusing. Your comments are so absurd I can't help but respond to them. It isn't cute anymore, though. You can stop digging that hole.
Last edited by Eddie on Mon May 23, 2011 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Fox666 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:13 am

SuperForteX wrote:Oh. Yeah, I'm not the SuperForteX from GameFAQs.com, but I can see why you're all so upset with me if you believe that I am. I guess said troll accomplished what he had wanted in that regards.
Really?

He keeps saying that Herms translations are wrong (and goes further saying that all administrators from Kanzentai and Daizenshuu EX are all multiple accounts of the same guy), has a grudge against Vegetto EX (for an unknow reason) and besides he complains "Kid Boo vs Super Boo" stuff??

If he is not you, he is making a good job in impersonating you.
SuperForteX wrote:In a sense, I think I was originally wrong, too, thinking that the translation of ningen was the root of the problem. After hashing out this discussion, I no longer think the fault lies on the translators (not entirely anyway, although they do carry their fair share of the blame).
What the translators did wrong other than opposing your beliefs?
SuperForteX wrote:The majority of the fault lies on the Japanese language itself. It is a cultural difference, simple as that.
No, it's not. Herms already explained it. It's peculiar even in japanese culture.

Why don't you make some research, instead of trying to argue against something you know nothing based in nothing?
SuperForteX wrote:The above translation will serve to confuse fans.
So what? it's in the source material.

I think time travelling will confuse fans, so why don't we "translate" that Trunks is a wizard who does random magic?
SuperForteX wrote:we can all agree that a more generic term like "person" is far more appropriate.
Seriously? Check this post at the 2nd page:
Bussani wrote:It does by the Dragon Ball universe's definition of the word, apparently. Unless you want to translate ningen to something else. I mean, you could translate it to "person" instead. But what does person mean?
per·son/ˈpərsən/Noun
1. A human being regarded as an individual.
Oh.

SuperForteX wrote:and you can't tell me that Akira Toriyama meant to say that Capt. Ginyu is a human being.
And do you got any source for that...?

Besides you clearly showing you don't know anything about japanese, you seems to also don't know much the word "human" in English, which can be used in other ways.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Mon May 23, 2011 1:59 am

SuperForteX wrote:Oh. Yeah, I'm not the SuperForteX from GameFAQs.com
And yet his account is 4 months older than your account on DaizEX. So why do you share names? Were you trying to impersonate him? I'm calling bullshit. I understand you're embarrassed that you got caught talking shit on another site, but there's no need to lie.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Mon May 23, 2011 2:04 am

EDIT shameful defensiveness removed by self.
Last edited by SuperForteX on Mon May 23, 2011 4:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Mon May 23, 2011 2:41 am

SuperForteX wrote:I'm not him. I don't know or care why we have the same name.
C'mon, pal, who are you trying to kid?
SuperForteX wrote:Does that have anything to do with the useage of ningen in Dragon Ball?
Is there much else to talk about? It's pretty apparent that you've decided that you define the word ningen. What else do you wanna discuss?

For anybody that cares, I actually discovered last night that some of these lines were altered in the anime, for whatever reason. Seems Toei didn't understand where Toriyama was going with this 'ningen' stuff.

Manga line: 「いいことを教えてやろうか...大猿になったサイヤ人は戦闘力が人間のときの10倍にもなるのだ!!!」("Let me fill you in on something nice... A Saiyan who has become an oozaru has ten times the battle power of his human form!!!")
Anime line: 「いいことを教えてやろうか...大猿になったサイヤ人がな...戦闘力が10倍になるのだ!!!」 ("Let me fill you in on something nice... A Saiyan who has become an oozaru... has ten times more battle power!!!")

Manga line:「実はこのオレさまも戦闘力を自在に変化できるタイプの人間なんだよ!」 ("Just so you know, I too am the type of human/person/dude/whatever who can freely alter his battle power!")
Anime line: 「実はこのオレさまもキサマと同じように戦闘力を自在に変化できるタイプなんだよ!」 ("Just so you know, like yourself, I too am the type who can freely alter his battle power!")

According to Herms, another line, said by #17 in the manga (something to the effect of "Son Goku is the strongest in the world... among humans, that is.") was removed entirely, from the anime. How very curious.
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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Mon May 23, 2011 3:57 am

Fox666 wrote:What the translators did wrong other than opposing your beliefs?
Erm, but the translators haven't opposed my beliefs. One of my main arguing points was that you just don't see the word human thrown around like that in the official verisons.
Fox666 wrote:
SuperForteX wrote:we can all agree that a more generic term like "person" is far more appropriate.
Seriously? Check this post at the 2nd page:
Bussani wrote:It does by the Dragon Ball universe's definition of the word, apparently. Unless you want to translate ningen to something else. I mean, you could translate it to "person" instead. But what does person mean?
per·son/ˈpərsən/Noun
1. A human being regarded as an individual.
Oh.
Wait, I'm trying to say that person is more approriate, not that it's more accurate. As for person meaning "a human being", that's by the dictionary definition. I already tried to elaborate on the differeing handers for the word, see above, starting with the bolded word fiction.

On that note, VegettoEX has granted me the grace of having a second chance, so can we please just start over again? Just... ignore everything I've posted prior to this page. Let's just start over. That's all I'm asking.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Mon May 23, 2011 4:22 am

SuperForteX wrote:
Fox666 wrote:What the translators did wrong other than opposing your beliefs?
Erm, but the translators haven't opposed my beliefs. One of my main arguing points was that you just don't see the word human thrown around like that in the official verisons.
I have already posted one scan of Viz using the term "human". If you want to actually do some research about it(I advice you to do that before you start claiming stuff that's proven wrong) go read the Viz version of Dragon Ball, if you have it.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by SuperForteX » Mon May 23, 2011 4:24 am

In this one instance, yes, they used the term human. In the case of Ginyu and Vegeta, they didn't. Call it an inconsistent slipup. Again, I'm not any longer saying translating ningen as human is wrong. I'm saying it's just not approriate now.

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Re: I don't care if they use the term 'ningen'...

Post by dbgtFO » Mon May 23, 2011 4:32 am

SuperForteX wrote:Again, I'm not any longer saying translating ningen as human is wrong. I'm saying it's just not approriate now.
How is it inappropiate? Toriyama is the ruler of the Dragon Ball World and if Saiyans and Ginyu count as human in Dragon Ball, then that's the way it is.

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